Minor update, I've run a few practice games with a lot of variations on these ideas discussed here, and the actual favorite Double Defender list I finally came up with is:

Rexler Brath 37, HLC 7, Ion Pulse Missile 3, Shield Upgrade 4, Veteran Instincts 1 = 52

Colonel Vessery 35, HLC 7, Shield Upgrade 4, Decoy 2 = 48

It's less overall firepower than Brath with Predator, Lone Wolf, or PTL, but it lets you do some useful things.

-You have a good counter to Phantoms (PS10 HLC!).

-You can Target Lock PS9 guys on the first pass, at long range, so you're suffering less from not Focusing for defense.

-You can make large ships nervous near board edges and the asteroid field.

-You can switch up firing order when useful, either HLC can be PS10.

-PS9 arc dodgers have to stay a little honest. They know where 1 Defender will be, but not the other.

Just thought I'd share in case anyone is still interested.

I'm waiting on Wave 6.

Mangler cannon does interesting things for Brath, and I'm cautiously optimistic that the Calc-??? EPT could be something strong on Defenders.

Something like;

Brath

Marksmanship

Exp. Int.

Mangler

Prockets

Vessery

HLC

V.I.

Stealth Device

Prockets

I have always loved the idea of double defender. One thing that I don't quite understand is why everyone is so stuck on giving both defenders HLC. IMO, HLC is only necessary on Brath. I would also put Proton Rockets on Brath because his ability and agility pair so well with it (for only 2 points!) as well as giving him a range 1 option. As for Vessery, I would stick Assault missiles on him specifically for dealing with the swarm threat. While it is an expensive single use thing, you have a much higher chance of success if you target lock the same ship with both defenders (since you literally get your TL back after spending it to use on the missiles); it also has that mental effect that will either force your swarm-player enemy to spread out for easy pickings. As for the cannon slot on Vessery, I would be interested in seeing the flechette cannon on him next to Brath, but ion cannon is also an interesting option for setting up inevitable HCL shots from Brath. That puts Brath at 44 and Vessery at 40 (41 with ion cannon), leaving 16/15 points for ETPs and mods.

These 15-16 points are very important, but also very subjective.

PtL on Brath with Wingman on Vessery can work well as discussed earlier in the thread. I would expect this to be better against small groups of small but expensive ships where TL needs to be used more often (if going against 1 or 2 large ships, you can just leave the TL on one for Vessery and rarely need to give up your focus token for a new TL) as well as an important capability of focus firing. Mod to your heart's desire.

Lone Wolf on both can be fairly fantastic, although it doesn't stack well with TL, it still helps Brath quite a bit. Gives room for 2 shield mods.

Stealth devices could be good--but much more reliant on luck.

Ruthlessness on Vessery seems like an interesting combo which effectively doubles damage on all successful flechette cannon hits against grouped enemies. Predator is much more helpful on Brath. Outmaneuver is a card I like a lot on defender... especially when using cannons.

These all sound really fun to try and I will do it as soon as I get my second defender!

I agree with your thoughts on Col V. and the HLC. It's just a lot of points and I have a hard time buying it. I am looking forward to the Mangler Cannon, though. The Flachette isn't a bad idea, either. It's cheap enough that you can just not use it if you don't want to.

I also agree that the standard re-roll stuff isn't that good on Col. V. Predator isn't really worth it when you get the free TL. Marksman is a thought, but I like to use my Focus for defense if I don't need it for offense.

I've heard of a lot of people using Ion Cannons on Col. V. to Ionize and then get right behind them. If you did that, then Outmaneuver is a good card to get. I can then fire at Range 1 w/ TL, Focus, and -1 to their evade.

I've wanted to try Cluster Missiles on Col. V, too.

Just to be clear on Vessery, by "immediately after you roll" that means I can spend the TL to reroll.

Right?

Just to be clear on Vessery, by "immediately after you roll" that means I can spend the TL to reroll.

Right?

Yes.

I've wanted to try Cluster Missiles on Col. V, too.

They seem nice if you are expecting large ships. I, personally, would go for assault missiles due to this build's intrinsic vulnerability to swarms.

I agree with that if I were going to a very large event. If I were going down to the Store Championship at my local place, I wouldn't bother. I haven't seen a Swarm in ages. That, and EVERYONE is going for the new toys these days. Maybe it's just a fad until S&V comes out. I'm playing to the meta, though. Well...I didn't take any missiles in my last Defender list, but I did come in 3rd!

Interesting. Ignore my suggestions in a tournament setting. I can't even pretend like I know what is going on there. I have only played with friends (although I am very successful with that) I wouldn't mind trying out a tournament, but I tend to be the type of person that hates "meta" builds because I feel that they are so uninteresting and unoriginal. I play for fun.

It is actually quite funny. I am very hard-headed about using ordinance against my friends. They always tell me that it is a waste of points--and it usually is--but I still manage to do well against them. This may be why I am proposing that you put missiles on both defenders (that and it isn't like you can fit another ship in anyways)

Four attacks are better than three, although you can only get hits vessery provides a re-roll that could then lead to crits, what's more the HLC denies range three bonus dice so you have a really good chance to get three hits at range three and only having to deal with a couple of green dice.

The key to double D lists is going in slow staying at range a few turns before entering a dog fight, throwing eight dice out early will take out one ship for sure and maybe two massively helping to even out the numbers.

Four attacks are better than three, although you can only get hits vessery provides a re-roll that could then lead to crits, what's more the HLC denies range three bonus dice so you have a really good chance to get three hits at range three and only having to deal with a couple of green dice.

The key to double D lists is going in slow staying at range a few turns before entering a dog fight, throwing eight dice out early will take out one ship for sure and maybe two massively helping to even out the numbers.

I understand the benefits, I just don't think it is worth the points. As your title is the Tie Defender Ace, though, I will not argue with you as I have not actually been able to try either set up yet. I will try both multiple times eventually.

EDIT: Also, I would like to point out that assault missiles on Vessery are better for critical hits if the point is to knock out 1 ship in the beginning to even out the numbers. So that is 4 dice still with the added effect of spreading the enemy out and there is a cannon that can help with the inevitable dogfights immensely.

Interesting. Ignore my suggestions in a tournament setting. I can't even pretend like I know what is going on there. I have only played with friends (although I am very successful with that) I wouldn't mind trying out a tournament, but I tend to be the type of person that hates "meta" builds because I feel that they are so uninteresting and unoriginal. I play for fun.

It is actually quite funny. I am very hard-headed about using ordinance against my friends. They always tell me that it is a waste of points--and it usually is--but I still manage to do well against them. This may be why I am proposing that you put missiles on both defenders (that and it isn't like you can fit another ship in anyways)

Actually, I hate the "meta" build, too. Thankfully, my local area has had the largest event only as 20 people, and that was rare. The last tournament was 7 people. Same for the one before that. I will say, though, that the latest meta has been so top heavy with large, turreted ships that I have completely designed my list to destroy them:

Jonus w/ Homing Missile, Hull Upgrade, & Seismic Charges

2 x Scimitar Bomber w/ 2 Assault Missiles & Seismic Charges

Scimitar Bomber w/ Proton Torpedo & Seismic Charges

I'm still getting used to it, but it's worked well so far. While one thinks the Assault missiles are primarily for Swarms, it still works for things like Fat Han w/ 3 Z-95's or.....well.....anything except 2 ship builds. The Seismic Charges are based on Darkhorse's article and I've not fully play tested it enough. It can be quite fun.

As for ordnance in general, I've always used it. I used to use Vader w/ Concussion + Backstabber as flankers with Dark Curse and Academies as the main body. I was winning events in Waves 1 + 2, even vs. Soontir Fel. I added a Bomber w/ Concussion and Cluster Missiles instead of Backstabber and came in 2nd at a Wave 3 event. I haven't used it in a while, but I should probably try it. I find the trick is to use the stuff that will give you an advantage (Homing or Concussion) and have two ships fire at the same target. You can usually smash one snub nosed fighter with it.

When then new upgrades come out for the Advanced, the Defender is really going to shine. I look forward to flying 2 Defenders with an Advanced leading the charge!

The issues I have with missiles is its one shot, you pay more for the cannon but you'll use it every turn.

Not saying it my way or the highway just trying to offer my view as I've flown this build before

The issues I have with missiles is its one shot, you pay more for the cannon but you'll use it every turn.

Not saying it my way or the highway just trying to offer my view as I've flown this build before

I understand! And I get the felling that I will end up liking the build you mention more.

Do you think that the Flechette cannon or Ion cannon would be better in dogfights, though?

Problem with control cannons in a two ship list is the longer the fight goes the higher the chances you'll lose a ship, the reduction in damage gives the other guy more time to get through those shields.

You need to hit hard and first killing their big guns like wedge or corran asap so you can then kill their escorts in your own time.

By taking DD your setting yourself an uphill fight from the start, it's a fun challenge putting your personal skill to the test but it's high risk and the dice gods love to trip us up.

One thing that I don't quite understand is why everyone is so stuck on giving both defenders HLC.

Because if you're only running two ships you really need the firepower.

I have a really hard time giving up the HLC. It's only a 2-ship list, and you really need to drive hits through to get past the defenses that big ships can put up each turn. I try to fight at long range as much as possible, consequently, the HLC is where it's at. A short-range Defender could do pretty well with an Ion Cannon and some missiles for the same price. I haven't been able to make Defenders work a short range very well, though. The high threat stuff that I really want dead usually has PS on me, so I can't make a good long-range shot work very well because of TL issues. The HLC lets me take high quality opening shots against anyone. Sure, when all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails, but the HLC is a great effin' hammer. The odd Ion Pulse Missile really provides all the control I need. At PS10 it can hit without warning, so any ship that might have a problem with it won't know if Rex is taking a Target Lock action during their activation. That makes it a rock just hanging over their head. I rarely fire it, but I think it's presence affects the possible moves my opponent can take.

You need to hit hard and first killing their big guns like wedge or corran asap so you can then kill their escorts in your own time.

Right, and in terms of high alpha strike, the assault missiles are just as good as the cannon at taking out a single target as soon as possible, knocking the enemy ship count down 1.

Against 3 ships, you will be able to use your control cannon to keep 1 out of the dogfight, engaging in a 1 on 1 with the other (against Brath).

Against 4 ships, the assault missile will scare the hell out of them anyways.

All in all, I am trying to say that you are saying that the purpose of the double HCL is to knock a ship out early and then engage in dogfights. I agree with this, but if that is the sole point, assault missiles does this just as well with a secondary control cannon that allows you to have a large say in how the dogfighting goes.

You need to hit hard and first killing their big guns like wedge or corran asap so you can then kill their escorts in your own time.

Right, and in terms of high alpha strike, the assault missiles are just as good as the cannon at taking out a single target as soon as possible, knocking the enemy ship count down 1.

Against 3 ships, you will be able to use your control cannon to keep 1 out of the dogfight, engaging in a 1 on 1 with the other (against Brath).

Against 4 ships, the assault missile will scare the hell out of them anyways.

All in all, I am trying to say that you are saying that the purpose of the double HCL is to knock a ship out early and then engage in dogfights. I agree with this, but if that is the sole point, assault missiles does this just as well with a secondary control cannon that allows you to have a large say in how the dogfighting goes.

Assault Missiles (or almost any kind) require a Target Lock, so unless your PS is higher than the target ship, it's not happening on the first round of firing. I'm advocating a PS10 Rexler Brath, so let's say I fulfill that condition, at that point both HLC and Concussion Missiles are 4 dice. Concussions use the TL, but get to turn a blank into a hit. HLC is just four dice, but can use the TL. They're pretty similar damage, but if I roll really well on the HLC, I can just keep my Target Lock. Once that first round of firing is over, I'm basically paying 3 more points over the missiles to keep throwing 4 dice at range 2&3. That's a bargain and a half. Assault Missiles are only 2 points less than an HLC, are very situational, and don't get any bonus to their attack like Concussions or HLC would. It's flat bad unless you're 100% that you're going to be fighting swarms, in which case I'd still rather have an HLC, but I wouldn't think the Assaults are a terrible choice.

Ah, yes. The lack of target locks the first round of available fighting would definitely give a huge negative aspect to the missiles.

OK....I see it now. You guys are only doing a two ship list! I don't use the HLC and usually go with a 3 ship list. I think 2 is just too small for me.

I've actually tried a three ship list with two Defenders a few times, but oddly enough, they feel a bit overpriced to me without the upgrades. I don't feel a small third ship is worth the downgrade most of the time, although as I say that I kind of liked this one:

Rex, Predator = 40

Vessery, VI = 36

2x AP = 24

It has a cool name, too "Dead Man's Hand" referring to the pilot skill (2 1's and 2 8's, or "aces and eights").

Try throwing in a cheap Lambda w/ ST-321 and you are good to go. Or...a Weapons Engineer. That's what I usually use.

You need to hit hard and first killing their big guns like wedge or corran asap so you can then kill their escorts in your own time.

Right, and in terms of high alpha strike, the assault missiles are just as good as the cannon at taking out a single target as soon as possible, knocking the enemy ship count down 1.

Against 3 ships, you will be able to use your control cannon to keep 1 out of the dogfight, engaging in a 1 on 1 with the other (against Brath).

Against 4 ships, the assault missile will scare the hell out of them anyways.

All in all, I am trying to say that you are saying that the purpose of the double HCL is to knock a ship out early and then engage in dogfights. I agree with this, but if that is the sole point, assault missiles does this just as well with a secondary control cannon that allows you to have a large say in how the dogfighting goes.

Assault Missiles (or almost any kind) require a Target Lock, so unless your PS is higher than the target ship, it's not happening on the first round of firing. I'm advocating a PS10 Rexler Brath, so let's say I fulfill that condition, at that point both HLC and Concussion Missiles are 4 dice. Concussions use the TL, but get to turn a blank into a hit. HLC is just four dice, but can use the TL. They're pretty similar damage, but if I roll really well on the HLC, I can just keep my Target Lock. Once that first round of firing is over, I'm basically paying 3 more points over the missiles to keep throwing 4 dice at range 2&3. That's a bargain and a half. Assault Missiles are only 2 points less than an HLC, are very situational, and don't get any bonus to their attack like Concussions or HLC would. It's flat bad unless you're 100% that you're going to be fighting swarms, in which case I'd still rather have an HLC, but I wouldn't think the Assaults are a terrible choice.

Hohohoho, what about deadeye on Vessery then? Bam. Assault missiles first turn. Placing decoy on Brath might mitigate the problems from the lack of Veteren Instincts on Vessery.

You need to hit hard and first killing their big guns like wedge or corran asap so you can then kill their escorts in your own time.

Right, and in terms of high alpha strike, the assault missiles are just as good as the cannon at taking out a single target as soon as possible, knocking the enemy ship count down 1.

Against 3 ships, you will be able to use your control cannon to keep 1 out of the dogfight, engaging in a 1 on 1 with the other (against Brath).

Against 4 ships, the assault missile will scare the hell out of them anyways.

All in all, I am trying to say that you are saying that the purpose of the double HCL is to knock a ship out early and then engage in dogfights. I agree with this, but if that is the sole point, assault missiles does this just as well with a secondary control cannon that allows you to have a large say in how the dogfighting goes.

Assault Missiles (or almost any kind) require a Target Lock, so unless your PS is higher than the target ship, it's not happening on the first round of firing. I'm advocating a PS10 Rexler Brath, so let's say I fulfill that condition, at that point both HLC and Concussion Missiles are 4 dice. Concussions use the TL, but get to turn a blank into a hit. HLC is just four dice, but can use the TL. They're pretty similar damage, but if I roll really well on the HLC, I can just keep my Target Lock. Once that first round of firing is over, I'm basically paying 3 more points over the missiles to keep throwing 4 dice at range 2&3. That's a bargain and a half. Assault Missiles are only 2 points less than an HLC, are very situational, and don't get any bonus to their attack like Concussions or HLC would. It's flat bad unless you're 100% that you're going to be fighting swarms, in which case I'd still rather have an HLC, but I wouldn't think the Assaults are a terrible choice.

Hohohoho, what about deadeye on Vessery then? Bam. Assault missiles first turn. Placing decoy on Brath might mitigate the problems from the lack of Veteren Instincts on Vessery.

Then he's PS6 and not hitting before alot of pilots so you don't get to waste the enemies big gun before his friends fire, and Brath then loses the predator re-roll meaning his chance to use his ability becomes zero.