I've been on a weird list kick lately, and I've come up with a list that I really want to fly. Here's the thing, though, it's taking a ship that is widely considered to be overpriced, taking two of them, and buying a bunch of upgrades. If that's not a recipe for disaster I don't know what is. The thing is, though, it's so freakin' cool (at least to me, who loves Defenders).

Rexler Brath 37

HLC 7

Push the Limit 3

Engine Upgrade 4

51

Colonel Vessery 35

HLC 7

Veteran Instincts 1

Hull Upgrade 3

Ion Pulse Missiles 3

49

Primarily, this is about the cool factor. Two of the best fighters the Empire can offer, dressed to the nines. However, I'm trying to get some help from the community to make this list better, both in upgrade selection and advice on how to fly it. I'm trying to make sure it's as good as it can be, given the kind of ridiculous purpose of the list. It's got some things going for it, though.

Strengths:

Two HLCs that can fire with both Target Locks and Focus.

...with Barrel Rolls and Boost!

...at PS8!

...with white K-turns!

Yeah, so the advantages really come down to 2 huge long-range guns and the ability to get them lined up.

Disadvantages:

13 hit points, even with AGI 3 it's not much

No blocking ability

2 ships with 0 turrets between them

Overly reliant on green dice (susceptible to bad luck)

Interesting Matchups:

Against a Fat Falcon or Decimator, the turret at long range will have trouble doing damage against 4 green dice, whereas the pair of HLCs should strip the shields from either ship on the first turn of firing, opening them up to Brath piling on the crits early. Outside of Range 1, mini-swarms with 2 red dice will have trouble hurting the Defenders, giving them a turn at long range where they don't worry too much about retaliation.

Against a super-Dash build, the two Defenders are not very vulnerable to being kited, as they have higher PS than most Dash builds, they can turn around at will, and they are just at good at long range (better, because there's two of them).

Against Swarms, they're going to have more trouble, I think, because while the Defenders are tough at long range (2 red vs 4 green), they're going to be super vulnerable at short-range (3 red vs 3 green) where the Swarm's superior action economy and blocking ability is going to cause trouble. Keeping out of the knife-fight will be extremely important, but tough. I think success will have to rely on taking out one or two key swarm members with the HLCs before ranges close, and using the rocks, of course.

The biggest issue, I think, will be against ships with lots of cheap 3-dice attacks. The long range advantage will be pretty reduced against those sorts of ships, and a battle of attrition does not favor the Defenders. Cheap generic X- and B-wings can take some hits and keep putting the pressure on. Biggs can always suck attacks away from an important target, buying time for an opponent's big gun to take down a Defender. What other match-ups cause this build special problems?

Anything that induces stress (primarily the rebel captive, but now also Mara Jade) will deny you your actions and tie defenders have a heck of a hard time clearing stress (since only their straight maneuvers are green).

If Rexler gets stressed, he will no longer be able to target lock, which will prevent Vessery from getting his own free target lock. Push the limit on Rex is possible, but without another fighter with "wingman" nearby, it's going to cause you some headaches.

I'f flown a DD list before i went with

I love Defenders and love the idea of this, I was going to take 4 A wings and Keyan to a tournament but I might just go for the Double D.

Primarily, this is about the cool factor. Two of the best fighters the Empire can offer, dressed to the nines. However, I'm trying to get some help from the community to make this list better, both in upgrade selection and advice on how to fly it. I'm trying to make sure it's as good as it can be, given the kind of ridiculous purpose of the list. It's got some things going for it, though.

Brath and Vessery alone are working at cross purposes. Both want to take the focus action instead of the target lock, and Vessery needs a lock set up for him. I'd swap Vessery out for a Delta (giving you some more points to work with) or Brath and some upgrades out for two Deltas.

Likewise, Vessery'll benefit more than Brath from the Engine Upgrade because Brath wants to focus.

Anything that induces stress (primarily the rebel captive, but now also Mara Jade) will deny you your actions and tie defenders have a heck of a hard time clearing stress (since only their straight maneuvers are green).

If Rexler gets stressed, he will no longer be able to target lock, which will prevent Vessery from getting his own free target lock. Push the limit on Rex is possible, but without another fighter with "wingman" nearby, it's going to cause you some headaches.

Yeah, for some reason I hadn't thought about stress. Rebel Captive probably necessitates VI on Vessery so he can take the stress for Rex. Vessery can fight pretty well with stress, getting free target locks and abusing the K-turn. Mara Jade is an even bigger reason not to get near Decimators. Probably if I get overly stressed the right move is to pull a 5 straight to get the heck out of dodge and regroup. PTL is probably not an every turn sort of thing with Brath. I think it gets the most use on an attack run to get the double-boosted HLC, and then it's probably something to keep in the back pocket so you can do ridiculous things like K-turn + Boost + Barrel Roll.

Primarily, this is about the cool factor. Two of the best fighters the Empire can offer, dressed to the nines. However, I'm trying to get some help from the community to make this list better, both in upgrade selection and advice on how to fly it. I'm trying to make sure it's as good as it can be, given the kind of ridiculous purpose of the list. It's got some things going for it, though.

Brath and Vessery alone are working at cross purposes. Both want to take the focus action instead of the target lock, and Vessery needs a lock set up for him. I'd swap Vessery out for a Delta (giving you some more points to work with) or Brath and some upgrades out for two Deltas.

Likewise, Vessery'll benefit more than Brath from the Engine Upgrade because Brath wants to focus.

You're right, the only way to make it sort of work is to give Vessery VI so he can fire first. Like PTL, I don't think it's an every turn ability. Once the mid-game hits, it's probably more like Rex target locking someone on the way out, and just leaving the TL there for Vessery to use until Rex turns around. I view both pilots mostly as a high PS beatstick, but with abilities that might come into play if the conditions are right. I'd like to give Vessery Engine Upgrade, but the points aren't there unless I drop Ion Pulse Missiles and Hull Upgrade. The missiles are there to keep large ships honest and help break up formations on a key round. It might just be better to ditch them for the Engine, though. The pair of HLCs should do pretty well against Large ships with Brath's abilities, so the Ions might not be that big a deal. That would give me a 2-point initiative bid, which could be useful at PS8.

It's good to hear it's been flown before. I only ever remember people talking about it, not seriously trying it.

Its not competitive, but it can be fun. A phantom will run rings around a Defender.

If Rexler put a TL on a high priority target (like Falcon or such) then I think he would be tempted to leave it there to give Vessery the boost. It would be worth it for a turn of not Focusing to do it. Best used for large targets.

Also, if that happens, you might want to try Cluster Missiles on Vessery as he gets to re-roll both sets of dice.

You're right, the only way to make it sort of work is to give Vessery VI so he can fire first.

If you mean Brath TLs, Vessery shoots, then Brath spends his TL then Brath's wasting his ability. A highly explosive ability you want to push to the maximum.

Ive been playing this off and on for 4 months now. I call it The Manfight List.

It's sometimes fun, but loses almost every game.

Vessery and Brath, both with VI, HLC and EU. Vessery with clusters as well. Long lines crisscrossing, in and out and never be where you can be expected to be, favouring arc dodging over having a shot.

You're right, the only way to make it sort of work is to give Vessery VI so he can fire first.

If you mean Brath TLs, Vessery shoots, then Brath spends his TL then Brath's wasting his ability. A highly explosive ability you want to push to the maximum.

That's why Brath has PTL. On an attack run against big targets, Brath TL/Focuses and Vessery Focuses. Vessery Fires first, gets free TL and spends his focus, then Brath fires, spends his TL and depending on dice uses Focus to boost the roll or saves it to flip cards. In more chaotic situations, Brath will TL when other actions aren't more important. I don't anticipate trying to flip cards against cheap and mid-range ships. It's more useful to just go for the extra damage. Only in perfect situations will I get a chance to go for both damage and the flip.

The original version of this list had Clusters on Vessery, but I decided the HLC was too important, and I didn't want to spend points to not fire the HLC. The Ions were added as a small control element, but even now I'm not sure they should even be there.

So what does this list do against a Whisper list? I'd guess you try and move in fairly unpredictable ways at long range. Use that HLC range to keep putting pressure on Whisper. Split up firing arcs to cover a lot of area? I don't know. I guess an Echo list is a good reason for an initiative bid. You'd obviously prefer to move second, because Echo can be anywhere, but if you have to move first, you could try to have one Defender cover likely angles of attack for the other Defender. You'd get to shoot first in this case, severely restricting the kind of risks Echo can try and take, as an HLC vs. Echo has a non-trivial one-shot kill potential. Maybe for both you just blow out their support and then run like the dickens.

Ive been playing this off and on for 4 months now. I call it The Manfight List.

It's sometimes fun, but loses almost every game.

How does it normally lose? Does it get out-damaged? Trapped and stuck at close range?

I'd give Vessery Wingman instead of VI. Now you don't have to worry about doing green maneuvers to clear your from your PtL. Stress clearing is going to be more and more useful as stress plays a bigger and bigger part.

I love the idea here is my take

Brath+PtL+HLC+Shield Upgrade

Vessery+Wingman+HLC+Shield Upgrade

With a shield upgrade, they only have one less hit than a B-wing. Their 3 agility doesn't look so bad in that light.

Is this list going to win tournaments, no, it won't. But it will be fun to play.

Weakness - 2 ships!

Once Brath is dead Vessery losses a lot of his utility.

Oh it's a fun list but not tournament winning one by any means.

Using vessery to strip shields leaves them wide open to brath next turn, it requires some forward thinking on where you will use vessery and where you'll use brath but it can work.

It's hard to justify moving VI off of Vessery. PS8 is a big deal anyway, but the ability to fire before Rex is too big a deal to miss out on. Wingman is too short a range, I think. They should be trying to dodge some arcs and stay at long range. Keeping them in formation is too much to ask for, in my book. Rex is definitely going to be more defensive in his actions and movements. I think Vessery is the ship you take more risks with. If he doesn't die first, you've done it wrong. If the other side goes after Rex hard, I think you probably take a long range HLC shot with him on the first turn, and then dance away. Easier said than done, sure.

Sounds to me like someone's new goal should be to win a tourney with Double Defenders...!

I've really enjoyed flying 2 delta's with Ion cannon along side Soontir Fel. When Autothrusters comes out, it should be even nastier.

But if I were to fly double D's, I would go this way:

Brath w/ HLC, lone wolf & hull up.

Vessery w/ HLC, VI, clusters & engine up.

Obviously, you want to start far a part and force your opponent to move toward one or the other. This means one of your defenders easily gets behind your opponent's fleet and can wreck havoc (even phantoms can have trouble).

You can criss-cross, but even better is to avoid getting your defenders close together so you don't 'turn off' Lone Wolf. Hard 3's become very desireable to accomplish this, and fortunately its a white turn

Brath does not need to use his TL. He TL's a high hull ship and leaves it there so Vessery can eat it for breakfast. He's slightly more durable because he's ultimately the better closer against yt's. Swarms will still be a problem, but at least HLC's are really good at sniping Howlie early (and DtF black's don't help much).

I am surprised this topic is getting so much traction. Now I feel like I should try this out.

I just wish that we had another named T/D pilot to work with : ( I am not too found of Vesy and his target locking.

For me, Brath wants to shoot later than his squadmates, as they'd be able to knock off enemy tokens and shields before he fires.

Veteran's Instinct, Swarm Tactics, and Decoy are the best ways to facilitate this, the latter two being brilliant as they allow you to NOT use them when Brath shooting first is superior.

I also wonder: Is 14 points of upgrades on both defenders better than, say, a Lambda Shuttle with some support options? Brings you to a 3 ship fleet, can TL for Vessery and/or Fleet Officer for Brath...

Sounds to me like someone's new goal should be to win a tourney with Double Defenders...!

It's starting to be. I've done pretty well in locals with Rex and a miniswarm. I love how the Defender flies, and it would just be nuts to just put down 2 small ships for deployment.

I've really enjoyed flying 2 delta's with Ion cannon along side Soontir Fel. When Autothrusters comes out, it should be even nastier.

But if I were to fly double D's, I would go this way:

Brath w/ HLC, lone wolf & hull up.

Vessery w/ HLC, VI, clusters & engine up.

Obviously, you want to start far a part and force your opponent to move toward one or the other. This means one of your defenders easily gets behind your opponent's fleet and can wreck havoc (even phantoms can have trouble).

You can criss-cross, but even better is to avoid getting your defenders close together so you don't 'turn off' Lone Wolf. Hard 3's become very desireable to accomplish this, and fortunately its a white turn

Brath does not need to use his TL. He TL's a high hull ship and leaves it there so Vessery can eat it for breakfast. He's slightly more durable because he's ultimately the better closer against yt's. Swarms will still be a problem, but at least HLC's are really good at sniping Howlie early (and DtF black's don't help much).

I've been looking real hard at a list similar to this with Outmaneuver on Vessery. Rex is already the prime target, and Lone Wolf means he's an even bigger late game pain. Outmaneuver gives Vessery extra damage when the opposition rightfully goes after Rex. I think once PTL is gone, you don't as much worry about VI on Vessery. You throw the TL out there early, and just let it sit there unless Rex can use it to deliver a knockout punch. This is the later game list, the one I proposed above is the early game list.

For me, Brath wants to shoot later than his squadmates, as they'd be able to knock off enemy tokens and shields before he fires.

Veteran's Instinct, Swarm Tactics, and Decoy are the best ways to facilitate this, the latter two being brilliant as they allow you to NOT use them when Brath shooting first is superior.

I also wonder: Is 14 points of upgrades on both defenders better than, say, a Lambda Shuttle with some support options? Brings you to a 3 ship fleet, can TL for Vessery and/or Fleet Officer for Brath...

The nice thing about Rex with Vessery/VI is that you can always pick your moving and firing order. I'm not convinced that putting all those points into upgrades is a good choice, but the list stops being two super-pilots and starts being two pretty good pilots and something else. Honestly, if I were going to put in a third ship, it would probably be Backstabber, because I love that guy. From the original list, I'd probably drop Vessery's HLC, Ion Pulse Missiles, Hull Upgrade, and Engine Upgrade to net 17 points. Trade out PTL for Lone Wolf for another point, and pick up Backstabber with a Targeting Computer for an even 100. Okay, I sort of really like that. Vessery gets a lot cheaper and just dives into the fray instead of hanging back with an HLC. Backstabber can light targets up for Vessery and Brath gets tougher and less vulnerable to stress, although less dodgy without Engine Upgrade. Vessery will still do a bunch of damage, and hopefully Backstabber would make up for a loss of the HLC. This way you get one super-pilot, one pretty decent pilot, and an underpriced knife-fighter who punishes you while you go after the big guys. This might be a real list.

For me, Brath wants to shoot later than his squadmates, as they'd be able to knock off enemy tokens and shields before he fires.

Veteran's Instinct, Swarm Tactics, and Decoy are the best ways to facilitate this, the latter two being brilliant as they allow you to NOT use them when Brath shooting first is superior.

I also wonder: Is 14 points of upgrades on both defenders better than, say, a Lambda Shuttle with some support options? Brings you to a 3 ship fleet, can TL for Vessery and/or Fleet Officer for Brath...

Biophysical already covered why VI is kinda better than ST or Decoy in this list.

OMG w/ Fleet Officer & Rebel Captive

Brath

Vessery w/ VI

not a terrible list, but even with Rebel Captive that shuttle may die quick. So Fleet Officer might only get used once or twice...

I am surprised this topic is getting so much traction. Now I feel like I should try this out.

I just wish that we had another named T/D pilot to work with : ( I am not too found of Vesy and his target locking.

Vessery is a pilot that will hit three to four times a turn, with TL and focus he's super effective at striping shields and armour.

With a DD list you have to pick your target order and stick to it, eight shots at range three that deny bonus agility will kill an x-wing in a turn, a b-wing in two.

Even highly nimble a-wings lose out because of the k turn you can get behind then while keeping your actions.

It's a list that's highly unforgiving if you mess up it'll cost you but it can win.