Back in 2nd edition, instead of going to the crown of command the player went through timescape. This allowed players a chance to get to the firelands before the player beat the lord of darkness. Characters like the Ogre Chieftan, and Necromancer have a huge advantage since they can really boost thier attack values.

I would like to have an alternative since timescape is likely never going to appear in 4th edition. because I do like a LONG game of Talisman. And it seems rather anticlimatic to soundly defeat the lord of darkness and win them game.

Is moving from the treasure chamber to the crown of command a bit too much? You wouldn't even need a talisman.

We have long games where

neither of us defeat the Lord of Darkness, let alone get to the Crown.

I've never thought the LoD was a cheat; it take us hours to get strong enough to fight him, in our case.

One of us won't even go into the Dungeon half the time.

It takes more hours of leveling to accomplish that feat than to get through the Inner Region regularly, so no I don't think it's too much of a reward!

It takes more hours of leveling to accomplish that feat than to get through the Inner Region regularly, so no I don't think it's too much of a reward!

Necromancer and OC have done the cash-in Followers, defeat LoD by 8+ in under 30 minutes. This was more prevalent in the initial Dungeon plays, before going to the random endings.

My stats say that in 163 games with Dungeon included, LoD has been challenged 50 times, with 30 times the winner exiting at the Crown of Command. And keep in mind, games around here almost never even reach 2 hours, 90 minutes is more around the "long game" for us, 60-75 minutes within reason most of the time. And this is with one of the six random endings being Ice Queen, meaning most of the time, you want a combat-stat of 13-14+ before going for the Crown.

Recently, Ogre Chieftain, coming in as a mid-game replacement, made it to the Crown via the LoD route in well under 30 minutes after coming in, only to flip the Ice Queen after he cashed all his Followers against the LoD. Throw in the City expansion (or more to the point, the Flail) and LoD's been getting creamed more again of late. Throw in stuff like Bolster or Freeze Spell, LoD is actually a lot easier to defeat (maybe even by 8+) than the Ice Queen as the latter cannot be affected by Spells, and against LoD, you don't have to do the song and dance routine of the Inner Region (mostly Dice with Death for Str-characters), where you don't boost up for 4-5 turns minimum, while in the Dungeon, 4-5 turns spent could mean 4-5 points in a stat.

It takes more hours of leveling to accomplish that feat than to get through the Inner Region regularly, so no I don't think it's too much of a reward!

Necromancer and OC have done the cash-in Followers, defeat LoD by 8+ in under 30 minutes. This was more prevalent in the initial Dungeon plays, before going to the random endings.

My stats say that in 163 games with Dungeon included, LoD has been challenged 50 times, with 30 times the winner exiting at the Crown of Command. And keep in mind, games around here almost never even reach 2 hours, 90 minutes is more around the "long game" for us, 60-75 minutes within reason most of the time. And this is with one of the six random endings being Ice Queen, meaning most of the time, you want a combat-stat of 13-14+ before going for the Crown.

Recently, Ogre Chieftain, coming in as a mid-game replacement, made it to the Crown via the LoD route in well under 30 minutes after coming in, only to flip the Ice Queen after he cashed all his Followers against the LoD. Throw in the City expansion (or more to the point, the Flail) and LoD's been getting creamed more again of late. Throw in stuff like Bolster or Freeze Spell, LoD is actually a lot easier to defeat (maybe even by 8+) than the Ice Queen as the latter cannot be affected by Spells, and against LoD, you don't have to do the song and dance routine of the Inner Region (mostly Dice with Death for Str-characters), where you don't boost up for 4-5 turns minimum, while in the Dungeon, 4-5 turns spent could mean 4-5 points in a stat.

Thank you very much for this post! Through your research and testimony here you have completely validated my play group's decision to limit the Necromancer and Ogre Chieftain to using only one of their "special" followers per combat, and to permanently remove the Battle Axes and Flails from the game. I knew these were the right decisions, but it's always nice to get additional confirmation .

what gets me, is that you would not even need a talisman. Which is a little linchpin in the game IMHO that can be bypassed via the Lord of Darkness. Granted, you need to have around 12 or 14 strength and some boosts to achieve this

We have had games, with all the expansions, that have gone on for around 3 hours without anyone getting over a 6 strength or craft and abandoned the game..... Unless you guys are getting really lucky with the cards you draw I do not see it being a problem.

The flail being so easy to obtain for some characters is another story....

On average, our games are at least 3 hours long, and certainly longer. We too have abandoned games due to lack of leveling, though usually someone is killed/loss of all lives, before either of us (2 player game, btw) are strong enough to challenge either the Lord of Darkness or go through the Portal and plain.

We play with all expansions which gives so much randomness that I believe its one reason why games go on and on. Its not uncommon that only one of us levels up, while the other may gain more gold or objects/special objects. But some games are more equally matched and employ everything in the way of competition - more on my side than my wive's, but she is less reluctant to give back what she is given and that is mostly because of the Woodlands' destiny and paths and light/dark fate.