I love defenders, but I always feel like they charged too much for that white K turn. That said do you think defenders would be more fairly priced if they had white segnor loops instead of the white K (or both, but I think that'd be a bit overboard)? I realize it wouldn't be very feasible to implement due to having to print new dials, but I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks about it.
Segnor Loop Defender
I've found the white K-Turn to be pretty powerful, so I think the Defenders are fine the way they are.
You could have a Defender (maybe Advanced too) only mod that gave them a white Segnor? or even just red Segnor. I don't think you would have to worry about printing new dials.
It could be something like this:
Something something Damperners Sci-fi tech stuff: (Defender & Advanced only)
When you reveal a 3 bank maneuver you may instead treat that maneuver as a (insert segnor graphic) maneuver and receive a stress token.
1 point?
Edited by Jo JoThe Tie Advanced is forced to perform a Segnors loop if it's shot at by a Falcon.
I've found the white K-Turn to be pretty powerful, so I think the Defenders are fine the way they are.
I'm not saying defenders or the white K are bad by any means, I just feel that at the price point they are missing a lil something.
You could have a Defender (maybe Advanced too) only mod that gave them a white Segnor? or even just red Segnor. I don't think you would have to worry about printing new dials.
It could be something like this:
Something something Damperners Sci-fi tech stuff: (Defender & Advanced only)
When you reveal a 3 bank maneuver you may instead treat that maneuver as a (insert segnor graphic) maneuver and receive a stress token.
1 point?
Yeah, that could work. I don't think you should charge the advanced anything for it though.
S-loops are not inherently better than K-turns.
S-loops are not inherently better than K-turns.
They give you options. With the 4K your opponent always knows where to block. With the loop maybe you can go either way
If we're going by the storyline, IG-88 was able to pull a Segnor's Loop because he wasn't an organic being. The loop, in the stories, caused so much stress on an organic being that they either fell unconscious or died because of the intensity of the maneuver, no matter where their intertial compensators were set. This is why IG-88, a droid, could pull off this maneuver with no problem because... well... he's a droid.
Just a little something from the storyline :-)
To be fair according to the fluff, it could be new damper tech that now allows for these more stressful turns
I think the white k turn is great, especially when the other guy is sure your going to use it and you pull another move throwing him off.
I've found the white K-Turn to be pretty powerful, so I think the Defenders are fine the way they are.
The white K-turn is great, but the cost is still too high. Some numbers.
The PS1 TIE Defender needs to do 60% more damage above what's predicted by its stat line to break even with PS1 TIEs or PS2 Z-95's. The white K-turn is good, but not that good. I have been using a coefficient of 1.5 for turreted ships which seems to give very accurate total point predictions. Therefore, arguing that the Defender can make up the point cost by utilizing its white K-turn is mathematically equivalent to stating that the white K-turn is almost certainly at least as good, if not better, than having a 360 degree turret. Clearly this is not he case.
If we're going by the storyline, IG-88 was able to pull a Segnor's Loop because he wasn't an organic being. The loop, in the stories, caused so much stress on an organic being that they either fell unconscious or died because of the intensity of the maneuver, no matter where their intertial compensators were set. This is why IG-88, a droid, could pull off this maneuver with no problem because... well... he's a droid.
Just a little something from the storyline :-)
Makes sense in the story, but then why are star vipers getting away with it in game? I'd like to see the segnor make its way to ships of all the factions, really. I just picked the defender since I think it could do for something to make it stick out a bit more than it does at its price point.
To be fair according to the fluff, it could be new damper tech that now allows for these more stressful turns
All the more reason to stick it on the galaxy's premier space superiority fighter.
If we're going by the storyline, IG-88 was able to pull a Segnor's Loop because he wasn't an organic being. The loop, in the stories, caused so much stress on an organic being that they either fell unconscious or died because of the intensity of the maneuver, no matter where their intertial compensators were set. This is why IG-88, a droid, could pull off this maneuver with no problem because... well... he's a droid.
Just a little something from the storyline :-)
The star viper also has an s-loop on its dial. And I think wedge performs one in the Zahn books, but I could be mistaken about that.
I think the white k turn is great, especially when the other guy is sure your going to use it and you pull another move throwing him off.
Too bad the other maneuvers suck and usually leave you out of position. Every once in a while you can throw someone off by busting a 1 hard, but then you are stuck going in a straight line to clear the **** stress.
Ninja'd
Edited by Jo Jo
I've found the white K-Turn to be pretty powerful, so I think the Defenders are fine the way they are.
The white K-turn is great, but the cost is still too high. Some numbers.
The PS1 TIE Defender needs to do 60% more damage above what's predicted by its stat line to break even with PS1 TIEs or PS2 Z-95's. The white K-turn is good, but not that good. I have been using a coefficient of 1.5 for turreted ships which seems to give very accurate total point predictions. Therefore, arguing that the Defender can make up the point cost by utilizing its white K-turn is mathematically equivalent to stating that the white K-turn is almost certainly at least as good, if not better, than having a 360 degree turret. Clearly this is not he case.
How are you calculating this out?
I've found the white K-Turn to be pretty powerful, so I think the Defenders are fine the way they are.
The white K-turn is great, but the cost is still too high. Some numbers.
The PS1 TIE Defender needs to do 60% more damage above what's predicted by its stat line to break even with PS1 TIEs or PS2 Z-95's. The white K-turn is good, but not that good. I have been using a coefficient of 1.5 for turreted ships which seems to give very accurate total point predictions. Therefore, arguing that the Defender can make up the point cost by utilizing its white K-turn is mathematically equivalent to stating that the white K-turn is almost certainly at least as good, if not better, than having a 360 degree turret. Clearly this is not he case.
How are you calculating this out?
The thread is also linked to in my index thread, near the bottom under the "MathWing" heading.
We noticed a while ago that Engine Upgrade was really good on Defenders to get them where they needed to go. After a white K-turn It basically is S-loop but way tighter. Sadly still has the same block zone but you do what you can. Also it's neat to point out that B-wings+Adv.Sensors+Engine Upgrade can pull off a faux S-loop and pick the direction they do it in as they activate with a total S-loop speed of otherwise impossible four. Again not optimal but it's there. I don't feel the Defender has come into it's own yet however except Maybe in Epic as long as nobody pulls the Jamming Action on the poor thing. I feel like a Green three bank would have been something they looked at in design but decided against for some reason.
I think the white k turn is great, especially when the other guy is sure your going to use it and you pull another move throwing him off.
Too bad the other maneuvers suck and usually leave you out of position. Every once in a while you can throw someone off by busting a 1 hard, but then you are stuck going in a straight line to clear the **** stress.
Ninja'd
I've only ever had to pull a hard 1 once since wave four came out, it's not usually a problem.
I've found the white K-Turn to be pretty powerful, so I think the Defenders are fine the way they are.
The white K-turn is great, but the cost is still too high. Some numbers.
The PS1 TIE Defender needs to do 60% more damage above what's predicted by its stat line to break even with PS1 TIEs or PS2 Z-95's. The white K-turn is good, but not that good. I have been using a coefficient of 1.5 for turreted ships which seems to give very accurate total point predictions. Therefore, arguing that the Defender can make up the point cost by utilizing its white K-turn is mathematically equivalent to stating that the white K-turn is almost certainly at least as good, if not better, than having a 360 degree turret. Clearly this is not he case.
Bah! Science!
Defenders seem to come with the ability to roll exactly the amount of evades they need.
The rational part of me thinks its just random variation in small numbers, the other part thinks Rexlar Brath in an invincible ship and next to Soontir Fell is the fictional man most likely to get me to seriously consider switching sides for.
We noticed a while ago that Engine Upgrade was really good on Defenders to get them where they needed to go. After a white K-turn It basically is S-loop but way tighter. Sadly still has the same block zone but you do what you can. Also it's neat to point out that B-wings+Adv.Sensors+Engine Upgrade can pull off a faux S-loop and pick the direction they do it in as they activate with a total S-loop speed of otherwise impossible four.
Hey, it's Hypermobility! Huzzah!
Truly, Decloaking has been proven the king of this, but if the Phantom will wane somehow, that will allow folks to switch off of the Tanky Turrets, allowing this to come back into fruition.
How would you bring back these hyper mobile types in the midst of all these Turrets? It seems to me that the new Aggressor and Autothrusters are going to try to hedge the turrets out, but not do much to stop the Phantom. The phantom just has so many pillars of strength that it's hard to see it ever waning. I suppose the Scum HWK series helps fight them off in huge ways but I worry still. I think they are like the TIE swarm in a way: A good from the start strategy that can do even better in the hands of a pro, so they are here to stay. I doubt we will not see a Whisper+VI+ACD in the top 8 again next Worlds and maybe for a couple years after. Unless FFG proves brilliant once again as I suppose I ought expect and comes up with soft or hard counter. But I would also fear that counter. If the Phantom remains problematic, I'd hate to see the cure y'know?
I think Soontir + autothrusters + Stealth device + PTL will be a good enough unit that it should find itself in a number of lists. And it's a nice soft counter to the Phantom.
That's what FF is going for, I think. Fewer hard counters, and more interesting toys that can- when skillfully used- be good against a lot of things.
But then that put's you back to saying 'Hey rebels! Bring a turret!' Which is to be fair one of their factions specialties and has been since Y-wings. It's part of their faction identity. But what of the less mobile all X-wing squad? Do you suppose there is some way out there to eventually make every archetype viable? It would be absolutely awesome if any game ever got to the point that with out banning or restricting any of it's content, made all of it somehow playable. If you could go to an event and just bring a fine tuned squad that you had practiced with but really just fit your playstyle more than matching the meta? Oh take me on high sweet gaming gods! I am prepared for nirvana! FFG's product design in general seems to aim truly strive for this goal so if anyone can make it, they are one of the few seeming to want to put in the effort.
I'm not so sure. Turrets basically beg to have Autothrusters used against them. The Soontir I mentioned above would be throwing 4 dice against a Y-Wing's 3. Soontir will have a focus available, and also be able to convert 1 blank into a clean miss. Same against Han. Against Dash, he's moving later- may get into the donut hole. If not, can get out of arc and be going 4v4- with the same focus and blank conversion.
That's _nice_.
I think each archetype will be viable, but probably not each build.
Well it practically has a seignor loop you can barrel roll after a white K-turn