After reading the thread it tells me more that people are more likely to play it safe with the common meta then risk playing antimeta a majority of the time. This means that most players expect to play mirror matches instead of disrupts to their game plan. This would be easy to manipulate if one is able to A. Find a good symbol that has the apporpriate anti-meta tools, and B. A person has the cards to run the deck.

The main problem with anti-meta is it's really no longer secretive. Order players know about Perfect Sense of Balance and Torn Hero. Anti-meta cards that are obvious, and are pretty much staples in anything that can run it.

Good became my favorite symbol when I built *Yoshitora*. He was a highly unknown/underrated character who was an auto-win against almost every popular character of the time (Matt Kohls, **Ukyo**, **Nakoruru**, etc). Not only that, but his access to Nadeshiko (mm, free destruction) and **Yoshitora** stacker (which had broken conjunction with Compassionate Heroism) henceforth made him THE most anti-meta character, only slightly ahead of Earth *Twelve*.

There was ingenuity there. I had to use a character, a stacker (which, btw, stacking still doesn't exist in this current game outside of maybe Yi Shan), a unique character-only asset, and an entirely Good-symbol deck to counter the entire metagame (and I did =D).

Nowadays really, countering meta is like...maybe switching from Chun-Li to Andrew Olexa. Like I said, this game needs more character-only and more character-specific effects and cards to make selection that much more thought-provoking.

And as a Good player, let me just say that Good is definitely in the competing ranks, especially when it comes to countering the meta. Undercover Agent covers Bitter Rivals (and doesn't get negated by Chester's!), Red Lotus covers Spinta, Torn Hero covers any Order shenanigans, Holding Ground/Spiritual Center butchers any Hilde/Feline users, and Tag Along and Free Will work amazingly together.

well this banning only cripple card combos which i see order having a field day with people staging area and only good can prevent that. cursed blood was a huge mistake to bring back because i see no reason for any other symbol besides order using it to have field advantage. my thought would be to have it reprinted without the order symbol. close throw? seriously come on i would expect overhand throw then that. it does'nt make sense what so ever to even bring that back. martial arts champ make sense. fel long kick should have been banned.ira spinta should have been jedah only, juni spiral arrow should make you chuck momentum. to many cheesy cards that get off very easy.

Goo said:

Um, no sarcasm intended here, I'm honestly not understanding why Fei Long's Forward Kick should be banned. Could you explain it to the uninformed (myself)?

MarcoPulleaux said:

And, could you explain (not trolling you, I swear) how Yoshitora, a 7/23 with an E Commit: Commit your opponent, beats Nakadodo, a 8/19 with R Commit: After your opponent starts their turn, commit anything (including your opponent)? Nakalaka has a handsize lead, more flexibility, and a better second ability to boot.

ROTBI said:

Hanzokick is pretty unfair, that's why.

Well, the thing is is that the HanzoKick deck has gone largely underestimated. Now, I know I'm going to draw some fire for saying this, but I still believe the deck doesn't get enough credit. I think it's better than simply top 8s and a win here or there. I'd rank it as probably the second best deck behind Chun-li right now, honestly. I find myself surprised more and more when I hear of a Hanzokick deck making top 8 only to not win the event.

The other reason Goo mentioned that is as such: On our train ride home last week, he brought up the point that you can make a good and effective Hanzo deck sans the kick, but there's no point since it would be completely inferior to Hanzokick. It discourages creative deck-building to have such a condition like Hanzokick exist. The solution would be to get rid of forward kick, or make it a Fei Long E. Now, most people would probably just say F*** Hanzo, but hey, some of us might think of creative ways to work him.

Now, with the loss of these banned cards, the deck has gained even more power. No more owlface and Chester's to hit those Bitter Rivals, Ways of Punishment, and any other manner of foundation-powered damage push-throughs. If Hanzokick doesn't make it to AT LEAST the top 4 at nats, I'm going to be shocked. Seriously shocked.

I was personally hoping for a rather large ban-hammer to drop. My list is quite extensive, and also includes errata's for certain cards, one of which being Spinta as well. But, rather than a character-only, I would have attatched something like "If you play an effect that adds this card to your hand, this card will return to your hand during your end phase instead." So as to stop these silly and somewhat unfair loops.

The issue is a lot of power cards from the pre-Hata era of the game are too powerful for what they cost. Spiral Arrow has no cost. Spinta's cost is HEAVILY abused by the decks that run it-it's more of a boon imo. Spike's 1 check serves no justification for it's imbalanced power. Honestly, would it be the worst thing to hit some of these cards with Errata's? I mean back a few years a lot of these cards that were super-powerful had very big costs. Yoga Mastery, while still a bit too strong, had a very big cost attatched to a 4 diffculty. You could seriously risk decking out or losing cards you need in order to kill your opponent. I've witness people lose because they lost that one attack or foundation they needed to push themselves over in the past, myself included. Things like lost memories, which was card for card. Psycho Power, which had an outlandish 5 difficulty and a momentum+commital cost.

For anyone interested at all, here was my wish-list of bans:

BRT
Makai (check)
Owlface (check)

And the longish part, erratas:

Foward Kick-Fei Long E
Feline Spike-Felicia E, nix the Reversal
Spinta-Effect listed above
Spiral Arrow-Commit 2 foundations, discard 1 momentum as cost.
Chun-li-Only non-attacks are playable on your opponent's turn. I say this because her effect reminds me a lot of Mil Rank. Too easy of a cost to fufill for what it does.

Let me be the ******* to say OWLFACE DIDN'T NEED TO BE BANNED!!! I'm an Evil player who loves CC Haxzorz!! How the hell am I supposed 2 get rid of Destiny now??? I can only count on Intolorent To Failure but so much!!

As for Chester.. They need 2 make a new card with the same stats with just R: Negate blah blah, w/o the vitality plus.. Oh and give it Void.

Makai.. I could care less.

Immortal-JyNxX said:

Owlface did need to be banned. That's like saying "Just because **Ibuki** with Red Lotus is overpowered, doesn't mean Life **Ibuki** has to suffer too. **Ibuki** shouldn't have been banned!" or some such.

Immortal-JyNxX said:

Maybe also without the block, and with completely different resources. And no 6cc. And a cost. But then it wouldn't be Chester's anymore now would it?

Tagrineth said:

No, it wouldn't. It would be Lost Mems. Actually, i would be okay with that being reprinted, although i think they did: Charismatic.

Goo said:

Not fair. I complain and get screamed at and called troll, you complain and nobody says anything =/.

But naturally, I agree with most of what you've said.

Close Throw was reprinted because, wait for it, its symbols are in the tubes. Earth is almost there, Void has some cool tricks, and Life is just utter garbage.

Fei Long's Kick saw 0 play before Hanzo. Notice anything about my statement? Hanzo is the problem, not Fei Long's kick, and from a fan designer's stand point, let me just tell you that Hanzo's E shouldn't be free. Vega didn't get that treament. Raphael didn't get that treatment. Why does Hanzo? Because he's a ninja, and UFS is nothing without a top tier ninja ruining the game?

If Ira-Spinta was Jedah-only, not gonna lie, Jedah might see play. **Jedah** + Cursed Blood + Spinta = speedy build.

You neglected to mention Feline Spike's errata/ban =/

But yes, you've pretty much nailed it. New cards come with costs, Combo being the most elaborate one. However, until 12, Combo didn't exist, and the closest thing to it were cards like Shoulder Rush and Spinning Beat.

New cards shouldn't have to compete with BS of the past necessarily. The bannings were a glimmer of hope for this game, and after July and Tekken come out, I'm hoping we can see swift bannings of Feline, Spinta, BRT, Chun-Li, and an errata on Hanzo, Akuma, Herr, Olexa, BR, and Red Lotus.

But I know that won't ever happen, so what ev

After today, I want Chester's and Owlface gone now. I got rocked because of those two cards. So hard to sit on your ass when stuff is negating your ass-sitting skills.

the thing is, though, that Close Throw doesn't really do much for those symbols. It's like...meh, whatever. It's average at best.

Look at my previous thoughts for thoughts on errata's and bans of the similar manner, Shinji.

Lol, you and me both. I don't understand why they introduce bans without placing them into effect immediately. I release Nats is coming up soon, but really, GOOD players can adjust to bans instantly, especially since Nats will now, inevitably, be a repeat of any regionals or Can Nats, at least character/deck selectionwise.

Hey, nobody said Close Throw would do much, but the point is it gives them SOMETHING, and at this point, that's about all that can be said. Throws have never needed effects to be awesome. Witch Hunt, Strike Heads, and Close Throw have effects, but none of them HAD to use them to be of any major use. This game is starting to get its 3-check Throws back, and eventually that will matter.

I know some may disagree, but I think both Witch Hunt and ESPECIALLY Widow Maker need to come back. While Widow Maker could have used a cost, its come to the point where all 3 of its symbols NEED that kind of power, and assuming Witch Hunt got reprinted, Life would finally have an attack line-up that really mattered, as would Earth (arguably).

I did read your original post, and I pretty much agree.

But whatever. I'm remaining out of competitive play until July. My friends and I are already building decks to accomodate July's additions of MAC and Close Throw (in addition to Mark and Cursed Blood), as well as the bans. Not much to report so far, but as you could guess, our games have been much more fun.

If we're bringing back 3-check Throws, then i would like to cast my ballot for 8th Bill of Punishment's return. Great card. Period.

Another great card that would be awesome for this block is Scourge of Zeus. Fantastic symbol spread that promotes aggro!

...erm...>_>

OK let's not get too excited lol. I'm not a huge fan of reprints, and I have some high hopes for Tekken, but almost every symbol is at a competitive edge, I was just saying that Widow Maker and Witch Hunt will give certain symbols their edge, especially Widow Maker.

But yeah, glad the bannings happened, and looking forward to seeing some **** SPOILERS ALREADY!

RockStar said:

Wafflecopter said:

Nice list, but where's 8th Bill??

Point taken tho...

Wafflecopter said:

Well, the problem with those is that none of those really have effects, except for maybe their Desperation.

Also, 8th Bill had All, something only Kishi Matek has, and it isn't as spammable as 8th Bill. Finally, 8th Bill's effect wasn't just theme-oriented: it saw a LOT of play, and still would (lol@ Zi Mei + Fury of the Ancients + 8th Bill).

Throw game is pretty decent right now, especially off Death or Earth. With some proper damage pumps and use of "if this attack deals damage" effects (like Ka Technique), throws can be useful.

Actually, only Perfect Grapple has All, among 3cc throws. Rera Kishi Matek is a card from Nakadodo's stuff... I imagine it doesn't help that there is another throw called "Rera Kishima Tek" from Rera's support. XD

I wonder if you're required to differentiate between the two when you're naming cards for ESP

You're correct about none of those cards having effects other than the static keyword, but really how often do you see cards that have two seperate, really good effects? If you count Throw as one, these cards are perfectly good

Also, I have absolutely won games with Butt Scratcher's lifegain :]

I agree that 8th Bill was a fine card, but we're not in a drought for what it brought to the table. Well, aside from somewhat-gimmicky free unblockable pumpable 10 damage, but I think that would be borderline unbalanced especially with Fury of the Ancients + Path of the Master.