So can anyone elaborate on why LotM was banned? I mean sure it's good momentum gain for free but ban worthy? I just was wondering, cause right now my brain just exploded....please help.

by banning LOTM they don't have a need to ban allot of other cards. LOTM was the one card that fueled allot of insane combo's. Without LOTM Chun-Li got allot slower and the defender loop got allot harder to pull off. It was either ban Lotm or ban Feline spike, ira Spinta, defender and allot more

It was free momentum made too many loops and recursion like chain throw and the stats didnt help.

banning LotM won't make any of those cards less retarded. sure it might slow them down a turn or two at most, but Ira-spinta is still a throw that get's rid of the two most useful cards your opponent has on the field. Spike is still the most insane multiple attack ever printed. Defender...you got me there, but personally I think defender is ban worthy by itself. Past that LotM was just good card and a fun to play with.

from reading the responses to the SotG it seems it got banned because new players had a hard time getting it.....Really? I mean if that plays any part in banning a card then there are quite a few more cards that need to be banned...cough..BRT....cough.

I apologize if it sounds like i'm being hostile in any way, because I assure you that is not my goal here. I just want a greater understanding of the criteria a card must meet to be banned.

Ken_Masters said:

BRT is way less a problem then LOTM . Anything in UFS that has no cost is a problem if its slightly good same reason bitter rivals is an issue especially with the new rules. Not to mention now Destiny will see more play with owlface gone and adding MAC being reprinted I dont see BRT being an issue anymore.

I view banning of LotM similar to how they erratted Adon1, it was an inablizer. With Adon they stopped a whole lot of combos instead of having to manage half a dozen other cards. It was the smart move, imo, I've got 3 LotM and I'm just as happy, just 3 less 6 checks I gotta replace with stuff I didn't have room for earlier.

Scuba BRT has been a problem since day one but that's a totally different converstation. I was just making an observation about the logic people were using to justify banning LotM and comparing it to something of equal difficultly to obtain and playability. I agree that cards with no cost should sound an alarm to any and all who read them, because more than likely they can be abused in some way shape or form. Anyways I appreciate the constructive thoughts and different views on the issue, but my brain is still exploded from this banning. O.O

Not to prolong the discussion. But another thing would probably the number of "answers" to the banned card, their accessibility, the ease and amount of use, and how productive the answer it.

At high level tournament play BRT is already viewed as a "Risky" card because of cards like Wilful that punish the BRT players.

With Olcadan's gone, Destiny no longer disappears, and can actually function in its role to help subdue Hax.

LotM as mentioned was an enabler. you enhanced with it's 2nd E, then did the Ispin enhance, and when the Ispin did damage, you pull back the card that was removed as the cost for the Spin, play it again, and voila, Ispin at no cost.

While Ispin can still be looped, there is now a cost where you actually loose things to the momentum. Additionally there are readily available in print cards that kill Ispin dead. <Calming the Mind, which also is now protected that Owlface is gone, once it hits the table, Ispin's E isn't being played for the rest of the game.>

Kitty Spike now no longer has a pile of free momentum sitting around with an E that doesn't commit any cards in the staging area.

There was no risk in playing Lord of the Makai. 2/6 with a good block, and 2 enchances that were completely risk free.

As agreed, defender loop takes a dive in power.

Try the new LotM free environment, I think you might enjoy it.

Antigoth said:

Makes me glad i traded my extra lotm to you at can nats lol

Ken_Masters said:

Well, you do have a point that once-retarded always-retarded, but allow the logic king to shed some light on this thread (albeit, AntiGoth did a pretty good job):

In this game, momentum generation is coveted. Cards that have momentum costs are generally (and are SUPPOSED to be) better than ones that have say commit costs, or no cost at all. Why? Because momentum isn't a natural resource, like cards to commit or discard; momentum must be obtained somehow. Now, sure, we do have direct momentum generation, but I as a fan creator think that's a good thing, as long as we keep it to the extent of such cards as White Magic (works on opponent's turn), White Gi (gives both player's momentum, and is unique), or Natural Leader (3 difficulty foundation, discards a card and commits itself). Lord of the Makai's only "cost" is simply that it only works during attacks, which obviously, isn't saying anything. It has better stats than any of the aforementioned cards, and generates momentum at a generally faster rate, ESPECIALLY in multiples. So that's the generation aspect.

The card lead to countless Defender loops, and who knows what other "discard 1 momentum"-esque loops it COULD have lead to had it not been banned. While Defender has seen dramatically less play over time, anybody who has ever used Defender in conjunction with Makai can attest to the no-brainer success you will inevitably achieve. While Defender's very existence is to loop cards, now you'll have to find ways to get your momentum, and while there's obviously Natural Leader, Chinese Boxing, etc, they're not as quick as Makai, and it's going to take a LOT of copies to even come close to a successful "loop".

The E Commit is used in a variety of ways, most notably for an Ira-Spinta "lockdown". As has been said, all it takes is two copies. When I play Spinta, no matter what you add to my staging area, I will simply use Makai's E Commit to add it back, effectively eradicating the cost, and still putting you at a gigantic disadvantage. I can keep doing so provided I have Tenacious, ***Seong Mi-Na***, lots of tutor, etc etc. The E Commit can be used similar to Body of Souls, but on your opponent's turn as well, meaning having no hand isn't as big a fear as you can (potentially) tutor blocks from your momentum.

So, to summarize, it broke lots of rules, and was one of those deadly "enablers" that remind us of such woes of the past like Chain Throw, Kunai, etc. It was costless momentum generation on a large scale that was backed by 4 symbols (two of which are undeniably top tier) and amazing stats that lead to several overpowered or cheap combos and loops.

Thank God it's gone.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I really wish every thread I posted in would have a built in "She Just Love Me" (by Damm D) to emphasize my obviously-correct posts.

Oh

8D

Ken_Masters said:

Ken_Masters said:

it'll slow them down a turn or two, which should in theory be what you need to set up against them and try to KO.

Spike is nowhere near as totally FUBAR as Rolling Storm. Seriously, get over yourself. Rolling Storm was ten times the problem Spike is. Every time I think that Spike is broken I remember the 3 difficulty 30 damage turn 1 Storms.

With LOTM gone, Defender doesn't warrant a ban at all. Chester's and Mentoring being gone with it means Defender is much harder to protect, too, nevermind being unable to pay its cost as many times as you want every turn.

With LOTM gone, Ira-Spinta can't be looped without playing Seong Mi-Na or using her support which ends your combat phase. Mi-Na still relied on LOTM to accelerate looping and retrieval of cards used for Spinta's cost.

With LOTM gone, Spike lost its primary way of gaining momentum, and Spike decks just lost TWELVE 6CCs used to help pass its 7 difficulty quickly, adding more risk to playing the card.

And BRT is nowhere near broken. It was never really "broken" except in the case of pushing blocks, and even then I remember losing games to BRT'ing a block and my opponent played a Broken Leg, or even BRT'ing their block and watching them reveal/draw a Broken Leg. By the time BL got banned there were other answers readily available (cough Destiny), and now we have cards that actively PUNISH the use of BRT (TWO actions in set 12 on five different resources), one of the reprinted cards coming back into the format cancels BRT (Martial Arts Champion), and even ignoring all that, these changes encourage attacking a little more because chokehold graywars decks just took a big hit. More attacks in your deck = higher chance of BRT backfiring... and i've seen SO many cases of someone BRT'ing a card to fail it and handing their opponent a BETTER card.

Tagrineth said:

@Tag - and that is the beauty of the bans - OPTIONS!!! Hurrah, now I can play so much more!

It's not so much because Lord of Maki is too good, rather the fact most broken combo's in the game FEED from LOTM and with out it mayhaps these combos will starve and fade into the distance.

Antigoth said:

Why is this? Does calming the mind stop Ispin's E: from working? even at the end of the turn?

I have a question when does this ban come to effect? Im going to a regionals at the end of this month and I'am using LOTM in my dan deck will I not be able to play it at the regionals now?

You can use those cards till july 1st i believe

It kinda sucks though i had a really good deck idea that just made chesters better and then it gets banned the next day....oh well im actually glad to see it go

Halbard100 said:

Then ppl took advantage of the errata and used Blue Sky to loop. Never topped anywhere, but then again everyone though Adon was trash after his errata and never played him.

Makingsenseofus said:

Ummm yeah. If you can't pay a cost (have your opponent add something to your momentum) how can you ever play the effect?

Yes the card is added at the end of the turn, but the end of the turn is the end of the turn. An effect that is combat phase (enhance phase) only doesn't occur at the end of the turn with the card already cleared from the card pool etc.

i.e. the player who played the enhance on i-spin loses one card from their staging area to momentum (at the end of the turn). There is no other effect.

- dut

I still kinda hoped Bitter Rivals was banned too. At the moment I have an Algol deck and a Lu Chen deck that a single Bitter Rivals makes unviable and basically unplayable.

I'm a fan of Reversal but since that card came out I haven't been able to win anything with a reversal deck.

I would prefer an errata to a ban

Bitter should be E Commit: and it would go from insanely powerful to decently balanced.

Calming the Mind still gimps Yi Shan more than anyone else with the card.

"ALL RIGHT I JUST HIT YOU WITH STRIKING THUNDER I'LL THEN PROCEED TO LOOK AT ALL MY ATONIING FOR THE PASTS BECAUSE THEY'RE USELESS WITH CALMING THE MIND ACTIVE! YES!"

Seriously, whomever decided to put CtM in Yi Shan support... yeah.