Would the death of Obama and the destruction of the best naval fleet bring down the USA? The answer is no. Even in dictatorships the succession is either planned, or the most ambitious sorts take take over. Not all citizens of the Empire would hate it either. Many people would profit from the Empire and not want to see it go.

No, it wouldn't, because the US constitution provides for an order of succession. That is the nature and advantage of constitutions and the rule of law. Dictators rarely provide for what happens after their deaths, especially dictators that genuinely expect to live forever, as palpatine probably did.

Vader, if he had survived the emperor, probably could have held the imperial warmachine together, Tarkin maybe, but without a significant figure like that there would simply be no one that all factions in the empire would listen to. It's one of the big drawbacks of a dictatorship.

Vader had power because he was the empires right hand man but i think *technically* we was one of the lower ranks around that table at the first death star.

Remember loads of imperial systems would have never seen either vader or the emperor for decades or even *ever* and ruled using imperial law autonomously.

Given it was a 'cult of personality' leadership but i'm sure that some ambitious moff would retain control of most of their forces.

During WWII the US president died (rooselvelt? i forget which one) and the allies barely skipped a beat in strategy.

Even Hitlers death had doenitz replace him, it was the fact germany was in tatters that made his succession a joke, had he replaced hitler in late 40, lets say hitler has a heart attack, not invaded russia, then there may well have been a nazi occcupied europe now.

The briefing room in a new hope I have always seen as Tarkin and a bunch of his subordinates along with an imperial "advisor". My impression has been that vader was tasked with hunting down the rebellion, and had absolute authority in his task force, but the Death Star was Tarkins project and so vader had no technical authority, any power he had in that room was derived from his close relationship with the emperor.

A couple thoughts and comments I'd like to address:

"1. After Endor instant celebrations occurred everywhere as shown in the Special Edition takes, proving the Empire fell:" No but such celebrations would have still occurred -- as would their consequences. This makes perfect sense, some people would lose all sense of restraint and openly celebrate the death of a single oppressive figure even while still within his realm. In the X-wing novel "Iron Fist" one of the characters is an actual witness to the Coruscant scene. He and his resistance group, not affiliated with the Rebellion and more of a home grown cell, override the holovids to broadcast the Rebel footage so it can't be denied. However, he goes on to say that shortly after the celebrations Imperial Stormtroopers arrive to 'restore order' and begin firing on the crowd. He specifically recalls a mother being shot in the face and having to rescue her baby from being trampled -- his ensuing rage causing him to enlist in the Rebellion. So celebrations are bound to occur but that doesn't mean the Empire fell. They are more akin to protests in that respect.

"2A. The Imperial Navy was crippled at Endor:" No, no it wasn't. Bear in mind that the Rebellion did not have an equivalently sized fleet to inflict such damage and had to rely on hit and run tactics. They assembled their largest fleet for Endor given the gravity of the situation and potential prize of killing the Emperor, yes. Yet they remain massively outnumbered. The DSII's targeting of what few cruisers they have prompts them to move in amongst the ISDs that are containing them ("We're not going to attack?" "No, we only need to keep them from escaping. The Emperor has something special planned.") Throwing themselves against the overwhelming forces of the containing ISDs wasn't even considered, so suicidal it was, but was only embraced after the DSII started sniping whole capital ships ("We won't last long against those Star Destoryers!"). Recall the Rebel Fleet was only there to buy time for the starfighters to destroy the DSII anyway ("We've got to give those fighters more time!") and the attack was meant to begin with a rush on the DSII -- only called off when the shield wasn't down. --Incidentally, in the novelization, a number of Rebel starfighters slam into the DSII's shield and are destroyed outright, so caught off guard the Rebels are that it's up as they speed toward the station.-- Anyway, the point is the Rebel Fleet could not and did not even regard itself capable of, let alone intend,- to make war with the Imperial Fleet. They didn't even think it would be there, remember? So they thought they'd be safe to do the same thing: barricade the DSII to protect the starfighters within to buy them time and then head out in a typical hit-and-run style attack.

"2B. The Imperial Navy was crippled at Endor:" Again, no it wasn't. EU novels, particularly "The True at Bakura" which is set hours after ROTJ, make it clear that the destruction of the DSII and loss of the Emperor is so shocking to an Imperial Fleet that assumed itself invincible that individual ship captains and group commanders ordered their ships into hyperspace back to their home ports -- effectively surrendering the battlefield. The Imperial Navy wasn't crippled by material loss but the loss of leadership and a mentality that was weaved into the fabric of Imperial beliefs. Ships fled, many of them having never entered into combat from their stations at the periphery preventing Rebels from escaping. It was a temporary retreat to be sure but still one that surrendered the battle. The greater Imperial war machine, infrastructure, and 'civilization' was just as intact as it was before the battle. Our own history shows this many times over where the loss of a significant figure causes rank and file troops, even generals, to lose the will to fight. In fact, the exact same thing happens to Thrawn at the Battle of Bilbringi, as shown in the beginning of another X-wing book, "Isard's Revenge." This makes sense from a cultural perspective as well since Imperials were taught to be dependent upon superiors and generally operate less independently.

3. "Vader was not a true VP and a lesser rank:" This is partially true. In the recently released novel "Tarkin" that takes place before ANH the Emperor makes it clear that he considers himself, Vader, and Tarkin the three heads of the Empire with himself at the top. Vader, however, does not create policy as much as he enforces it or at best reaffirms it. Tarkin implements it. Vader is something of a dark horse in that he doesn't answer to anybody else but the Emperor and acts as his eyes and ears. Vader's authority to simply murder anybody he sees fit definitely means he exercises power over the room. And in the "Tarkin" novel Vader is gently chastised along the lines of "I thought we talked about you killing everybody to often" and merely grunts at it. The loss of the Emperor and Tarkin is a blow to the Imperial framework. The loss of Vader probably gave Imperial commanders everywhere their first night of relaxed sleep. Vader was a force multiplier (no pun intended) but one that Imperial officers knew had no concern for them so he likely wasn't looked to as leadership as much as enforcement. Losing him at the same as the Emperor doesn't change the fact that the Emperor's loss throws the Empire into disarray. Recall the Emperor meant to live forever. Regional governors could still control their systems but the rivalries between different branches of the military and government would have prevented any true leader from stepping up, just as today different police, military, and intelligence branches, and of course political parties, have a hard time agreeing to point figures.

*Fun fact, in the novel "Tarkin" you see a Mon Cal cruiser, in its original purpose as an actual luxury cruiser, stumble into a battle and get toasted. It takes place before ANH so it's a nice wink to the reader that you know where such ships are going in the future.

4. There is no 4.

... Yet.

--

I, for one, actually enjoyed the early EU novels especially because I think they acurately reflect the realities post-ROTJ. Many fantasy/sci-fi narratives have an all-or-nothing stance to events to accompany their "great man of history" plot mechanisms. But the SW EU authors did a great job of depicting an Empire that was still massively dangerous and largely intact, the lack of leadership being what prevents them from ever coalescing into enough of a force to pin the Rebels down. Meanwhile the Rebels gained legitimacy as a movement, inspiring lightly held worlds and/or worlds capable of uprising to declare their allegiance to the nomadic movement. A series of warlords, splintering, and new leaders like Thrawn stepping up made complete sense to me and dared to patient enough to settle the galactic scope SW was situated against. It was similar to WWII Germany being slowly beaten back at great cost and expense by the Allies in Europe. Each city, town, and crossroads had to be taken. Just as in the Pacific the Allies didn't attack Japan but instead island hopped their way there. By the end of ROTJ the war isn't won, it's finally a war and no longer an insurgency at best. I, for one, don't want to be deprived of that massive space opera that, in truth, we only get glimpses of in the movies. It's not like Lord of the Rings where it's a series of major battles that define the conflict. It's thousands of worlds being subjugated, liberated, and back again. Furthermore, it makes sense that most of the ships seen would be the same as ROTJ, at least for the Rebels but so too for the Imperials. In WWII the Aliies couldn't get winter coats to their troops in Europe and they were just across the Atlantic. Replacing standard gear, even for the Empire in ESB, would be a major logistical feat.

Personally, if Ep. VII had started a year later and covered the rank-and-file Rebellion slowly beating the Empire back (much like the WWII series "Band of Brothers" follows soldiers and not Generals), I'd be thrilled. As pointed out earlier, it has taken 30+ years for us to settle wars on Earth. On a galactic scale it would be all the same. If Ep. VII starts out saying the Empire is essentially gone or has been replaced by a new threat using cast off stormtrooper parts, I'll be disappointed. That's Hollywood needing a newer!, bigger!, darker! enemy to raise the stakes again instead of developing a new plot. As it stands, I remain hopeful since the stormtroopers appear and the Rebels still seem something of a ragtag movement. (I do worry about the new Sith being an element of that bigger!, better!, evil-er! movie tendency but that's off topic.)

EDIT: Added number 4.

I've read that too, but what exactly did he do? Its never really explained. The closest thing to an explanation was in Timothy Zahn's frist of the Thrawn Trilogy Heir to the Empire in which he said that the Emperor used the force to communicate with his commanders and Moffs. Something nobody else could do. I kinda rolled my eyes at that.

Forgottenlore makes a good point. I'd add to that my sense of what we get from WEG's Imperial Sourcebook that the Emperor created competing government agencies that had similar policy portfolios. So, for example, the ISB overlapped in its duties with Imperial Intelligence. I don't know if it goes beyond the government vs. political party overlap which we see in China and saw in the Soviet Union, but that's how I read it. China and the Soviet Union, of course, were not politically instable regimes. (The Soviet Union was economically unstable.)

Gadge, yes, it was Franklin Roosevelt, not to be confused with the guy who liked to hunt (Teddy Roosevelt).

R22 makes great points.

Would the death of Obama and the destruction of the best naval fleet bring down the USA? The answer is no. Even in dictatorships the succession is either planned, or the most ambitious sorts take take over. Not all citizens of the Empire would hate it either. Many people would profit from the Empire and not want to see it go.

And here we see the great strength of Democracy over most other forms of government. The American 25th amendment is damned important. And no British PM has ever died in office. As soon as one is incapacitated, they find themselves replaced.

Single charasmatic leaders usually end up being replaced by a coup, or transitioning into a monarchy.

Oh my gosh I love this discussion, keep talking guys!

Having only read the x-wing novels, and vaugly recall reading some jedi-acadamy bull about solo and Leia having kids and they becoming with lords or dead and something about an invincible ice cream cone. But those books I read back in highschool, soiI don't remember them. However, I did reread all of the x-wing, rouge squadron books over the fall, and got a really good idea of what the star wars universe was like.

Dozens of passive warlords making themselves rich or fighting amongst each other for systems, and every once in a while one of them gets the great idea to "unite everyone and save the empire" which the republic must quickly dispatch. And all bothans are dicks to people.

And all bothans are dicks to people.

God, so true. There were times where Bothan characters were so self-serving and annoying I could feel myself becoming a species-ist. An unapologetic species-ist.

Awesome post R22.

I've just got up or I'd add something more erudite.

(on a side note i pronounced the 'executor' as 'executer' (as in ;executioner' for years as it seemed to make sense as a kid) i've since learned its pronounced to be more in line with 'executive'

I remember an article from the early 1980's explaining this.

Think of Executor as the name given because the vessel is a clear manifestation and extension of The Emperor's Will.

It was created to 'execute' and implement The Emperor's policies and commands.

Some Executor fun facts for the kids.

In order to simulate the A-wing starfighter crashing through the Executor's bridge at the end of the Return of the Jedi, a full sized flaming automobile was sent through the set.

Here is a very rare unused shot from The Empire Strikes Back called "Warranted Trepidation," the was scene shot but cut from the final version of the film in which General Veers is waiting to enter Vader's private quarters to speak with the Dark Lord, prior to the Battle of Hoth.

The Executor was the most expensive ship model from The OT, estimated at $100,000.

While previously-constructed Star Destroyer models were lit by bundles of delicate fiber optics, the Executor featured an internal illumination system of neon tubes. A complex photographic etching process created small, pinprick holes through brass plates to form an estimated 25,000 windows on the model through which the neon lights were seen.

There was even a contest to name the ship before the movie came out.

Kenner Toys hoped to avoid using the ominous "Executor" name on toy packing for the creation of its 1980 playset modeling Darth Vader's meditation chamber from The Empire Strikes Back. Kenner's ad agency created a list of 153 potential names to use instead of Executor, including Starbase Malevolent, Black Coven, Haphaestus VII, and Cosmocurse. In the end, Kenner chose a name not included in the list: "Darth Vader's Star Destroyer."

Many attribute the Executor's five mile fallacy length to West End Games. That is incorrect. While West End Games did continue this error in their much beloved Imperial Sourcebook in 1989, that figure was derived from an earlier publication.

In December 1984, four-and-a-half years after the release of The Empire Strikes Back, Raymond L. Velasco's A Guide to the Star Wars Universe was the first Star Wars source to provide a hard figure for the Executor, which clearly dominated all other starships seen in the trilogy, naming the Super Star Destroyer to be "approximately five times larger than any Star Destroyer in the Imperial fleet." The book also provides a precise length of 1.6 kilometers for the Imperial-class Star Destroyer, meaning the Executor was approximately eight kilometers long.

I was one of the first individuals from 1995 who strongly lobbied to make it cannon that the Executor was well over five miles in length.

As an aside, Avenger and Devastator were names of World War II Allied planes.

The good guys.

Just like The Empire.

R22 you make some excellent points. I have have given those exact points in conversation with many Star Wars fans over the years, those fans included military officers and in one case a priest who was just as big a fan as Star Wars as he was a history buff.

I would like to add this in regards to the system of government of The Empire.

First let us take even the most basic of glimpses in our own world's history.

The Emperor did in fact create a system of government wherein only HE was the clear preeminent leader and all others, no matter how powerful, or influential or charismatic, were not fully certain where they stood in the pecking order in comparison to others of like power and prestige.

It created a sense of unease and distrust wherein everyone vied to be in The Emperor's Inner Circle, and ultimately they all still had to deffer to The Emperor, and more importantly made The Emperor the sole individual completely INVALUABLE to The Empire.

Let us look at this example from an early rough draft of Return of the Jedi.

The rough draft feature several scenes aboard the Executor that drive a heated Vader-Jerjerrod rivalry subplot that was changed in subsequent versions of the script. In the rough draft, Skywalker surrenders to Imperial forces, and General Veers begins to transport him to the Executor via shuttle. However, the shuttle's captain argues that Skywalker must be taken to the Emperor, but Veers, whose loyalty lies with Vader, refuses and takes Skywalker to the Executor as planned. Vader confronts his son aboard the Executor, but they are interrupted by Jerjerrod, who is furious that Vader has disobeyed his orders. In response, Vader kills Jerjerrod.

In the revised rough draft, Vader instead takes Skywalker to the Emperor.

As seen here [1] Lucas intended for the men close to The Emperor to vie for His approval and [2] clearly even Darth Vader has his own agendas.

It is implicit in The Empire Strikes Back wherein Vader asks Luke to join him in displacing The Emperor.

In A New Hope, besides the retrieval of the stolen data, I would hazard a guess that Vader was on board the Death Star in part as a safeguard to make sure Grand Moff Tarkin would not declare himself Emperor.

Tarkin himself was well aware that there were several spies, from varied and competing agencies, on his staff.

As an aside, the loss of the first Death Star was a setback, but one given time would be dealt with. Grand Moff Tarkin however was irreplaceable.

In EU power play comes up several times, Vader and Prince Xizor were clear bitter rivals, Moffs vie for territory with other Moffs.

When Grand Admiral Thrawn makes his bid, other powerful Imperials support him marginally, not wanting to give away all their power, nor wanting to fully elevate a non human.

To rise to become part of the elite of The Empire, be it politically or militarily or administratively, one had to have a certain driving and ambitious persona. These men and women that The Emperor surrounded Himself with would not give up the ideal of The Empire and The New Order after the Battle of Endor.

Because of this criteria however, their unifying weakness was they all, to an extent, sought to rule The Empire in The Emperor's stead.

Thats not even the worst of it. The Death of Sidious caused a powerful darkside nexus. Anything thats still alive will have to deal with darkside entities. Everday after ROTJ for survivors should be like a mix betwwen Poltergiest 1 2 3, Grudge, Ghostbuster but without anything to defend oneself from "Ghosts." This Nexus will also cause Sith and other Darksiders to flock too Endor. So then you got stuff like "End of Days," "Legend," "Spirit of Vengance," and "Paranormal Activity" series going on.

Indeed. Which is why - in the new Star Wars series - Ewoks will look like this:

I can't.... look away. What is it? Why is it angry? Where would you find such a hideous beast?

A koala thats fell in a lake or swimming pool.

A lot of them actually drown in house pools every year as they fall in and cant work out how to climb out.

With regards to the 'executor'., im mean i'm not daft i totally understand its a reference as in the 'executor' of an estate. That was my entire point. The main thing i was trying to explain though is that as a child when you dont know of legal terms like that then 'executing' things and being the 'executer' (and not realising the spelling difference) makes a lot more sense.

I totally understand why its called that as an adult.

I can't.... look away. What is it? Why is it angry? Where would you find such a hideous beast?

It's the mythical Drop Bear of XXXX. And it's angry because someone's just turned a hose on it.

Ah, Australia - home to some of the most deadly and dangerous flora and fauna in the world. Even the cute and fluffy stuff is potentially lethal.

I used to be obsessed with Koalas as a young man. I knew loads about them, diet, mating habits, social patterns, latin name.

I could even mimic the mating call (sounds a bit like a tusken raider).

I was gutted to find there are non in UK zoos.

Berlin zoo didnt have one when i went there either.

(they did once)

Apparently they stink though, many have chalmydia and they can be quite viscious... when they are not asleep which is on average 18 hours a day as a eucalyptus or cherry leaf diet is so low energy they cant stay awake, its a myth they get 'stoned'.

Incidentally its a 'union flag', its only a 'jack' when flown from a Royal Navy warship but nearly every one calls the Union Flag the Union Jack.

IIRC, it's still only a Jack when flown from the bow flagstaff in harbor or dressed overall. (Not just for the RN, but for all navies.)

Im an infanteer. I thought i was being clever knowing it was a union flag.

Traditions of the navy was never part of the 'run around carrying your own bodyweight of kit' syllabus they taught us.

Im an infanteer. I thought i was being clever knowing it was a union flag.

Traditions of the navy was never part of the 'run around carrying your own bodyweight of kit' syllabus they taught us.

Im a tanker, and whenever I'd see grunts running around with all that gear I just laugh. My tank carries mine.

I could even mimic the mating call (sounds a bit like a tusken raider).

That reminds me, a bunch of idiots on the history channel, I think, that are looking for Bigfoot are always claiming that a the screaming sound they record uncommonly on there show is a Bigfoot. But really its a Vixey making making or warning yawolling sounds.

Indeed. Which is why - in the new Star Wars series - Ewoks will look like this:

Peter: Egon your mucus!

One major difference between the Galactic Civil War and the conflicts you talk about: Endor.

After Endor, the Emperor is dead. Vader is dead. The Imperial Navy is devastated- "decimated" might be an understatement.

yeahhhh....I dunno about that. Endor was a raid, not a climactic battle. Depending on which edit of ROTJ you watch, you really only see about 2 Star Destroyers and 1 SSD go down. Later, EU books gave Endor much greater meaning. Like the recent Lucas re-edits which never sat well with me, we see this seemingly instant celebrating the rebel victory. Rubbish! According to wookiepedia, the empire had 25,000 Imperial I class Star Destroyers and thousands of worlds under its rule. I always felt that even in the EU, the imperial remnant melted away a bit too fast. The re-thinking of Ep VII and the possibility of 30-40 years of war/conflict seems a much more appropriate possibility. And as mentioned in this thread, a great playground to act out the countless battles that no doubt, took place within that time.

Actually going by named sectors or systems only in the SW atlas and the Rebellion era source book force deployment formula for the Imperial NAVY. The Empire has at the very least 3 mil cap ships in its NAVY. They had a Star Destroy built for every planet in the Empire I believe, that total listed above is sore-fully out of date.

With lore that was added the ground battle at endor was much bigger than the bit we saw in the movie. Besides the shield stoping bombardment of the generator or airstrikes, the REBS would have to deal with Turtle Walkers which kill Star Fighters very easily. Then like 2/3ds of the ground forces for the Empire left the bunker to search for Lukes friends after he allowed himself to be captured. If that had never happened the REB Commandos as well at the Ewoks would have to deal with AT-ATs and the rest of the IMP ground forces. Including possibly NAVY Commandos (they guard important bases I don't see why they wouldn't have been there), Storm Commandos (there was at least one down there), Dark Troopers (not the full blown mk 3.) Huge ass fight took place with the majority of these IMP forces with the backup full strike REB force that was ready to Alpha strike the IMP bunker with arty and heavy tanks, but they ran into that IMP force I mentioned above.

Diseny Special edition may show this part of the fight

No, it wouldn't, because the US constitution provides for an order of succession. That is the nature and advantage of constitutions and the rule of law. Dictators rarely provide for what happens after their deaths, especially dictators that genuinely expect to live forever, as palpatine probably did.

Vader, if he had survived the emperor, probably could have held the imperial warmachine together, Tarkin maybe, but without a significant figure like that there would simply be no one that all factions in the empire would listen to. It's one of the big drawbacks of a dictatorship.

His 3 Prime objectives were as follows.

*Live forever (this may or may not have happened, he supposedly has a scene or scenes in EP 7)

*Build an Empire that will last 100 years, or forever, even if the first objective is not met.

*Find a apprentice that will be his worthy successor if he cant live forever, posses someone.

Number 2 is a success so far, 1 will always be in the grey since he could conceivable escape from "hell" 3...

The briefing room in a new hope I have always seen as Tarkin and a bunch of his subordinates along with an imperial "advisor". My impression has been that vader was tasked with hunting down the rebellion, and had absolute authority in his task force, but the Death Star was Tarkins project and so vader had no technical authority, any power he had in that room was derived from his close relationship with the emperor.

He is a Commissar. I know people want to think of the Empire as NAZI but they really are more Soviet that NAZI.

Sidious packed that DS with people he knew where a threat to him, and most like would not help with his 2nd objective I listed above. Going by what he says in other mediums he intended all the IMPs aboard the DS1 to die while hurting the REBS, but also helping the REBs appear to be a greater threat to the IMP way of life than most IMPs believed, hence justifying a even bigger boom in conscripting and weapon building than before, and at the same time unifying the Empire, or people that like the IMP life, more and giving them a real threat and purpose in this stronger bond that is developing.

Im an infanteer. I thought i was being clever knowing it was a union flag.

Traditions of the navy was never part of the 'run around carrying your own bodyweight of kit' syllabus they taught us.

Im a tanker, and whenever I'd see grunts running around with all that gear I just laugh. My tank carries mine.

Well, some of us had to go places that tanks can't. Like out the back of a C-130, for example. Do you guys get TVs in your tanks too, or do you have to watch the war from the MWR?

Also as a tankie you're *everyones* number one target.

The other sides tankies are after you (never call a UK armoured trooper a 'tanker' it can result in ill feeling.. it rhymes with w***er, they prefer tankie), the other sides helos and ground attack aircraft are after you... heck even we're after you with javelin (if we think we've got a chance) or, milan, law94 or law66 if you know you're going to die anyway so you may as well have a pop...

At least as a treehugger/pongo/tom (uk squaddie slang for infanteers.... or 'crunchies' as tankies call us) you're a low priority target for an airstrike or 120mm APDS or HESH round (i mean APDS would be pointless to fire at you unless you considred yourself a 68 ton sniper) so you know... dig a hole....sit in it.... fix bayonets

ICH DIEN!

(thats my regiments 'oo-rah' btw... in the old days it was 'wooooah mohammed' but we're not allowed that one anymore )

God i feel old looking at pics of how young i was then....

Im an infanteer. I thought i was being clever knowing it was a union flag.

Traditions of the navy was never part of the 'run around carrying your own bodyweight of kit' syllabus they taught us.

Im a tanker, and whenever I'd see grunts running around with all that gear I just laugh. My tank carries mine.

Well, some of us had to go places that tanks can't. Like out the back of a C-130, for example. Do you guys get TVs in your tanks too, or do you have to watch the war from the MWR?

The one thing we were jealous of that the tankies *did* have was the 'BV' or boiliing vessel (kettle), in the tank... no fun mucking about trying to boil water for a brew in a trench on a hexi stove when those gits had hot water on tap.

Incidentally its a 'union flag', its only a 'jack' when flown from a Royal Navy warship but nearly every one calls the Union Flag the Union Jack.

IIRC, it's still only a Jack when flown from the bow flagstaff in harbor or dressed overall. (Not just for the RN, but for all navies.)

I knew that to, but I learned it from a Doctor Who episode