I honestly don't think SV will save the meta. Though it will broaden the choices quite a lot.

I do think that SV will cause casual gamers to have a great time, as your chances of meeting the meta builds will diminish. Also it will go back to Wave 3 style where if you have a STYLE and you fly it incredibly well, you can go up against known builds because they haven't prepared for you. Too many choices!

This environment. This'n here. Yes.

One of the differences between scrubs (like me) and champions trying to deal with meta is that champions are much less fearful of the tier 2 unusual but potent builds. They have the skill to beat through it, or can expect 6 rounds of a tournament to weed them out. Unlike us, who with only 3 rounds of regular swiss, will still be paired to them, and also have less ability in general to fight against suboptimal builds.

Therefore, its easier for them to break it down into an analysis that is understandable and approachable. we have to fear much more unknown.

As for relevance to our daily lives. Those who keep whining to not worry about meta I think are just trying to shout down our concerns. I ahve to play against Falcons when i go to the shop. I am not going to go to my shop and tell people they should not fly what they like to fly (falcons). I am going to learn to beat them.

--

So the question is this. Do we consider Auto thrusters or no? If we consider only wave 5, its still a very interesting meta.

Imo, it has 4.5 pillars.

swarm, falcons, phantom 5tie, dash, and decimator is half a pillar, due to lack of info at this time. So far, it doesn't look dominating in the way that dash or han have been.

Interceptors as counters to dash will not come into maturity until auto thrusters imo. Phantom will be much more potent for now.

Dual falcon and fat han I think can be lumped together. Some of the good players will tell you there are little variations to how to play against them, but mostly similar stuff. (Things like intentionally ramming one Falcon so that they are forced to split fire. Especially if they have no gunners).

Double or triple Phantoms is also a tier 2 powerful build, but relies on no Fat Hans/turrets. It doesn't come up with high enough prevalence that we need to give it a pillar. Lump it together with Phantom 5 tie.

I think Naitonals list (shuttle phantom int) is a great build. but its prevalnce is also low. For now, I think we can set that aside also and just play the game if that happens. Ignore as meta.

Why aren't we attempting to explore this design space in this meta?

I think a lot of people are playing around outside the meta, but we only give serious discussion to what we know is good so the could be stuff gets ignored.

I see mostly anti-Phantom stuff in Wave 6 SV. I see almost no anti-fat. So, Fat Han is going still be a thing i think in SV.

--

Back to the original question of how to move the meta...

Game design wise, having too many tier 2 options will diversify the meta to a non-understandable state. It will be like current SC2 play, which is the best t has been, a huge manner of choices are possible and most build choices are slightly more middle with usually one trigger: a certain plan that they can execute to end the game if the opponent lets them.

Wave 6, a new faction should do this.

Rebuffing obsolete ships also increases choices. Tie Advanced fix, tie bomber fix and y wing fix will do this. Ywings are already looking good to take down decimators and maybe han.

Designing fallibilities like Dash R1 hole is another great way to open up meta. This with Autothrusters will encourage interceptors once again.

We live in a bright future, my fellow pilots.

--

In non-design, teaching palyers how to actively beat powerful builds is one key way to increase player skill and player risk taking in build. Ex. Videos on how to catch BOOSTING Han.

The meta is very good right now, imho. Yes han and threeps are strong and they should be. but those lists are in no Way unbeatable. Many different builds have a shot at good fat han lists. Whisper is Way more annoying, though, as most lists need to run a direct counter against thar ship in order to win a tourney. Still, i dont think its that bad and i see absolutely no reason to "save" the meta or Ban han or whatever peeps are suggesting in this thread

Are we talking about the Meta that dominate discussion on this board or the Meta that dominate play? Honestly at the LGS is my community, I don't see anything dominating play. Sure I see a lot of Whispers, but not that many more than I see PtL Soonter Fell. Sure the week Rebel Aces came out, just about every one at my tournament was playing Keyan Farlander or a Swarm of Refitted A-wings. That was the day I learned how Awesome Preditor Black Squadron is.

Half the players at the last tournament I played at had Decimators, but that was the very day it came out. We actually didn't have any YT-2400s because the shipment was delayed.

In my area most players like trying new things. If their is anything you will see a lot of it is what ever it is that just came out.

Even if you look at Tournament results, sure you see some trends, but you see plenty of other builds. I don't remember wich it was (and I am not sure if he won) but one of the very high ranked players had a swarm of Bomers and Howelrunner. They didn't even have any missiles/torps (I do think they had some bombs) but that is about as far from the meta as you can get.

Falcon meta is here to stay until they print the nuclear option or just ban Han Solo outright.

This year I suspect it's going to be Han + Squad Leader with HLC Dash.

Shores up the handful of weaknesses that exist for both Dash and Han.

Crushes Phantoms. Eats Swarms for breakfast.

Have you even tried the Outrider these days? As a rebel player who wants to believe this is true, it isn't...

Dash + Corran, Fat Han, and Whisper/Echo with Decimator (in no particular order) are the top 3 builds going forward I think. Tie swarm might be runner up.

It's just really hard to compete with the big ship turret dominance right now. Sooo many good upgrades/crew for these ships.

Dual falcon and fat han I think can be lumped together. Some of the good players will tell you there are little variations to how to play against them, but mostly similar stuff. (Things like intentionally ramming one Falcon so that they are forced to split fire. Especially if they have no gunners).

Double or triple Phantoms is also a tier 2 powerful build, but relies on no Fat Hans/turrets. It doesn't come up with high enough prevalence that we need to give it a pillar. Lump it together with Phantom 5 tie.

I think Naitonals list (shuttle phantom int) is a great build. but its prevalnce is also low. For now, I think we can set that aside also and just play the game if that happens. Ignore as meta.

You did see the Six Sigma squad that made it into the top 32, right? I now want 3 Phantoms in order to try it out. Anything in the top 32 would be considered top tier by many players. Personally, I think all the 4-2s would paint a less bleak picture of the meta that some want to paint it. And by going very broad in your squad generalizations, you will limit diversity. Falcon + HWK is very, very different than Double Falcon or Falcon + mini swarm.

I see mostly anti-Phantom stuff in Wave 6 SV. I see almost no anti-fat. So, Fat Han is going still be a thing i think in SV.

Really, because I see Scum Firesprays being an awesome way of fighting Falcons. Scum Kath's ability to always shoot with at least 4 dice is very much anti Falcon. Greedo, ironically, is good anti-big hull stuff. Palob Godahli can take away annoying tokens. Torkil can make sure the Falcon shoots last, which really hurts with some of the Jan builds. And we still have one Elite Talent, 2 Cannons (which tend to go well with certain ships that can fight Falcons), and whatever Iggy has.

Any data or thoughts on how potent Han + Dash w/ HLC (in the same team) would be?

Dash and chewie fit better. That's my guess. Chewie goes to time.

As for sithborg:

I follow those results very closely. I am very very aware of the six sigma. I'm also very aware of the talk surrounding it and the player's comments. It's a very hard build built for a little challenge. Piloted arguably by one of the better best players in the world.

Fun yes. Effective. Yes but only 4-2 even then. These I do consider tier 2 builds. Not tier one. Tier one are CONSISTENT winners of rounds 8 and up.

Even then you can read the statistics for the top 32 and 64. Less uniform but that diversity quickly diminishes with round level. At 32 much less. I think all the vessery builds dropped out here. By 16 all the non meta builds I believe. Nothing nonmeta past round of 16. Does that not bother you?

Even if I have it wrong. One or two builds total out of 16 is no good either. The zero and one percentage usages marked in the last few results are staggering.

Yes a tie advanced showed up. But that was DarkTemplar going for a challenge.

Also to be noted is how muchc the prize pool is and how often high money tournaments are. If say they definitely aren't as often or cash heavy as the magic or Starcraft or league tournaments.

Some of the SV stuff I guess you can count. But torkil mux fights a lot of things. I Guess i shouldn't have said none. But they are much less dedicated than the anti phantom stuff.

Scum kath has to ensure she keeps him in arc. One reason why Falcons are currently favored vs firesprays. No blind spots.

The abilities help immensely too.

Palob could definitely be useful. He steals evades too? If only focus then not at all.

Greedo I'm gonna have to see in action. I feel like it might not work as you intend. Crew is a very opportunity cost driven slot.

We just don't know enough ATM about them. We will see but so far I don't see it quite yet. Not that it won't exist.

The problem with interceptors, are the crushimators, which are gaining some traction.

Firesprays are fine against Falcons when you are using 3, because they are a lot of hull points and have decent firepower. But 1on1 it's not even close to a Fat Han because of the turret and better dial.

We hope autothrusters... maybe even with stealth device will change that. Also, enough dash with R1 donut will create a meta point for them.

I doubt Autothruster will blast Interceptors into top rankings but it will help them see more play.

I see Autothrusters go well with skilled players but still - a minor mistake might still put you in a bad position (R2 instead of R3) and end your trip really quick.

Against usual ships, pros have the ability to be fine for arc dodging anyway. Its the R3 turrets they can do nothing about. Doesn't matter how you fly.

I will admit that my local area doesn't see a lot of Fat Hans. I'll go to a small tournament tomorrow night at a store I don't know and might see some, though. Not sure.

What I hope helps change the meta at the larger events is bordedom. Who wants to keep flying the same list after 2 years? With Scum & Villany and new ships, I'm hoping that some people just move on. Even just people who shift to using the Decimator instead of Fat Han will suck a few more people away from Fat Han. I'm sick of seeing Fat Han filling the top lists. The reason is efficiency. Fat Han can avoid hits. You need to deal a lot of damage to him to kill him. There is only 70 minutes in the game. In every competitive game system, good plalyers gravitate towards reliable.

Personally, I'd love to see ordnance changed to make them viable. That would shift things away from large ships like nothing else.

The problem with interceptors, are the crushimators, which are gaining some traction.

Firesprays are fine against Falcons when you are using 3, because they are a lot of hull points and have decent firepower. But 1on1 it's not even close to a Fat Han because of the turret and better dial.

Falcon's have issues when facing a well flown Firespray with a HLC. A ship with 4 Atk dice that doesn't crumple like a Phantom can really tear into a Falcon, Threepio or not. The wider arcs make it difficult for the Firespray not to get a shot on a Falcon. Sure, I get the impression not too are that good at getting the HLC based on what I was told last year. And Scum Kath is going to be throwing a lot of 4 dice attacks.

Is the crushimator a decimator with vader and gunner? I've seen that in action. It's definetly effective, but mainly if your opponent is fielding few ships and/or ships with few hit points.

I can tolerate vader being used as it's hurting your opponent as well everytime he's used. It's the new ramming damage ability I really hate. Does no damage to your opponent, and can still get their action with the dauntless title. Plus it really punishes higher PS ships since they can crash into you before you get to move out of the way.

That's why i doubt interceptors will dominate, because the single moment they do, people will start playing the easy to play hard counter, which would be a crushimator.

It IS interesting that in Wave 3, there was very little discussion of "X counters Y". It was only "bring an answer to Z" (usually swarms). I do often wonder how much of this is a product of group think rather than actual in game experience.

Do the people who discuss Phantoms and Fat Falcons actually have lots of real game experience getting demolished by these ships and lists? Are they blowouts? Are the games ever close? I know the ships CAN make you feel helpless from time to time. But I'm pretty sure that the 7 Tie Swarm made some people feel this way too. The complaints were just different, more like "PS1 blockers are too good, blocking rules should be changed to hurt low PS."

Just a rant, I know Major Juggler's data shores up a lot of what you guys are talking about From personal experience,though, these ships and squads aren't much different than the previous meta complaints.

It IS interesting that in Wave 3, there was very little discussion of "X counters Y". It was only "bring an answer to Z" (usually swarms). I do often wonder how much of this is a product of group think rather than actual in game experience.

Do the people who discuss Phantoms and Fat Falcons actually have lots of real game experience getting demolished by these ships and lists? Are they blowouts? Are the games ever close? I know the ships CAN make you feel helpless from time to time. But I'm pretty sure that the 7 Tie Swarm made some people feel this way too. The complaints were just different, more like "PS1 blockers are too good, blocking rules should be changed to hurt low PS."

Just a rant, I know Major Juggler's data shores up a lot of what you guys are talking about From personal experience,though, these ships and squads aren't much different than the previous meta complaints.

I've definitely gotten rocked by a Fat Han with R2D2 crew. It was just so hard to put out enough damage to bring it down. Like hunting a rhino with a blow gun.

I tend to look at list building as needing to bring something that has pieces of the list that can deal with most of the major issues.

I find high PS and Swarms to be a solid counter to most things.