Alright. Currently, the Metagame is seemingly dominated by three forces: Large Turrets, Phantoms, and Swarms.

The reason for this is simple: A High ps Phantom with an Advanced Cloaking Device is extremely hard-hitting, extraordinarily difficult to hit, and usually cannot even be attacked, unless you have a Swarm or a Turret.

Sadly, that means that, until this ship is cracked by more options, most fleets are forced to be built with Level 7+ pilots with Veterans Instinct at their core, as anything else dies horribly to Echo and Whisper.

Yes. Fat Hans is annoying to punch through. However, it mostly exists as a counter to Echo and Whisper, and builds tankily to better the match-up against Swarms. Notably, Swarms are still the favored match-up against them. If you remove what Fat Falcons prey upon, then it will swiftly fall out of favor, as it can be conquered by any fleet with enough punch.

Now: The way for us to find a paradigmatic shift is to discover options to take out those High PS Phantoms other than using a High PS Turret.

To that end, here are some questions for how to break this.

What is effective against a Phantom with Adv Cloak, other than raw attack dice?

• Stress prevents the cloak from going back up, and otherwise reduces their mobility.
  • Flechette Torpedoes, R3A2, Rebel Captive
• Non-combat damage doesn't interact with their 4 agility, and instead goes to their tiny health pool.
  • Proton Bombs, Proximity Mines, and to a lesser extent, Assault Missiles and Seismic Charges
• Ionization prevents their ability to decloak, neutering their damage and mobility.

Is there a combo more effective for the Phantom than Adv Cloak and High PS?

Is there an archetype other than Turrets that Phantoms struggle to defeat?

Can we turn their strength to weakness?

• Any attack that deals an effect without needing to hit ignores their 4 agility.
  • Munition Failsafe + Flechette
  • Vader
  • Lieutenant Blount + IPM
• Anything that would prevent or punish their need to decloak every round.
  • Blocking
  • Asteroids
  • Proximity Mines
• Anything that ignores their high mobility
  • Turrets
  • Swarms
  • Fortresses

The shift is inbound. Autothrusters to control turret overcompensation and auto area damage effects to nail those 4-hp phantoms.

As I mentioned in another post I think mini swarms fantastic against phantoms and turrets. Cover the expected move in firing arcs and light em up.

I don't actually believe in the meta. Sure, a prevalence for certain builds exists, but they can all be beaten by just about anything else. I beat a fat dash with 2 x wings and an e wing. Leveled all his support in turn one, and then found the donut.

I've beaten a very strong decimator/phantom combo with han/Keyan/green squadron a wing.

This game really comes down to dice. Sure, you can mitigate those dice in a number of ways, but you still have to roll for most of the game.

The shift is inbound. Autothrusters to control turret overcompensation

The Turrets aren't the problem, even though the Autothrusters help hasten their end.

...auto area damage effects to nail those 4-hp phantoms.

Emon Azzameen, The Bomb title for Firesprays, the Bomb modification for Y-Wings, the Feedback Array, and the Deadman's Switch are the only ones here.

Although I am fairly certain that Emon can do the job on his own. Two Proton Bombs on a Phantom guarantee kill it, and One has a 7/33 chance of doing it on its own. In the face of that onslaught, Phantoms might have to switch to Hull Upgrades for sheer survival purposes.

I don't actually believe in the meta. Sure, a prevalence for certain builds exists, but they can all be beaten by just about anything else. I beat a fat dash with 2 x wings and an e wing. Leveled all his support in turn one, and then found the donut.

I've beaten a very strong decimator/phantom combo with han/Keyan/green squadron a wing.

This game really comes down to dice. Sure, you can mitigate those dice in a number of ways, but you still have to roll for most of the game.

It ain't Pokemon, but there are advantages and disadvantages inherent in playing one fleet against another. Once you get to the point in which your skill is even with that of your opponents, studying those advantages and disadvantages can net you the win.

That being said, a Han (High PS turret) list beat a Phantom list. No real surprise .

High dice attacks are also good against phantoms, 4 dice or more work good, assuming you have at least a focus/target lock, preferably both.

I think Phantoms are the problem too.

You have to admit that Turrets, especially Falcons were successful before, but rather with focus on firepower than on survival and pilot skill. This was in response to Interceptors mostly. But then Swarms and low skill cheap beefy ships like B-Eings were more popular.

You have very few possibilities to counter Phantoms already and even less options if you don't want a list that wilk beat Phantoms... But nothing else. And that's why turrets are popular. With the tanky Falcon, you have bad matchups too but it's not chanceless against other stuff. That's the point.

I see very few other options that can beat phantoms and are not chanceless against anything else.

Corran Horn can be interesting for example. With VI, R2A3 and Advanced sensors/FCS he costs as much as a Phantom but is likely to blow it up real hard. He is also usable against other builds but it's not optimal, he would be better off with R2D2 and anything but VI... So you have to make lots of compromise just to kill Phantoms and not autolose against them, sadly, if you are not willing to take Turrets.

Other examples would be Roark Garnet or mines, that are not really that great against other ships most of the time.

I use Soontir with Push the limit or Turr with veteran instinct to deal with phantoms (sometimes both in the same list)­. Heck, I even use Vader (the pilot) with squad leader to twist my ships out of Phantom firing arc (and add a Proton rocket as a deterring mechanism). That or bombers with proximity mines... or anything that can hold a rebel captive, that workds too. I used to fly a beefed up Kagi just for kicks and he had phantoms on the run (rebel captive, tactician, engine upgrade, advanced sensors, ion cannons).

Quite frankly, I'm not sure what the Meta looks elsewhere, but phantoms are not a problem in my area.

The Fat Han is good not just for the turrets, but also for the ability to shrug off hits. C-3PO is great for this. What works against this is numerous shots on the same target.

EDIT: Oh, Fat Hans are also good in the tournament meta. This is because with only 70 minutes you have to do a lot of hits to kill it. So, it's easier to conserve points than with smaller ships.

Phantoms will roll bad if you throw enough shots at them.

There are a number of new ships out, too. Scum is coming out not that long from now. Things will change.

Personally, I'm going to try Jonus w/ 3 other Tie Bombers with missiles and mines.

Your local meta may be different than mine, but I think that the meta you describe is largely over.

Yes, the Fat Han won worlds, and the all-turrets Wave 5 just hit the official shelves, but that just makes the Phantom something that is becoming deterred, and that deterrence opens up the ecosystem going forward.

I think the way the Nova Squadron podcast phrases it: the meta is fluid.

It does not seem stuck in a Nash equilibrium, where players are all driven towards playing turrets, phantoms, or swarms, if they want to win.

I don't actually believe in the meta. Sure, a prevalence for certain builds exists, but they can all be beaten by just about anything else. I beat a fat dash with 2 x wings and an e wing. Leveled all his support in turn one, and then found the donut.

I've beaten a very strong decimator/phantom combo with han/Keyan/green squadron a wing.

This game really comes down to dice. Sure, you can mitigate those dice in a number of ways, but you still have to roll for most of the game.

It ain't Pokemon, but there are advantages and disadvantages inherent in playing one fleet against another. Once you get to the point in which your skill is even with that of your opponents, studying those advantages and disadvantages can net you the win.

That being said, a Han (High PS turret) list beat a Phantom list. No real surprise .

han was tangled up with the deci, keyan and the green squadron pilot can handle the phantom fine.

The wide Falcon is an easy list to fly, pumps out damage and can take hits, and gets run far more often than the Phantom. Ergo it isn't the Phantom that needs a counter, it's the turreted Large Ship. 2015 will be the year of the Large Turreted Ship, especially with the introduction of two more, and if you thought the Falcon was hard to kill just wait until you meet the Decimator.

Looking forward to autothrusters as a step in the right direction for people wanting to run small ships!

i've actually had an easier time killing the decimator than han/dash/chewie

what needs to happen, is a small manueverable ship with a counter attack function when being attacked from outside a natural arc. sure, you're still getting blasted, but it comes at a risk if they arent pointing at you.

pretty much every tabletop game has worked a counter attack into their midst, i dont see why x wing shouldnt.

There are 4 top tier builds so far. They are:

The Fat Cats: Big ships with turret primary weapon plus escort.

The Dodgers: High mobility ship with great firepower along with a patrol

The Swarm: 6-8 of low pilot skill cheap ships that fly in formation.

Red Team: 4 small ship (usually rebel faction) build of 1 - 3 decent characters with sturdy filler ships.

There are 4 top tier builds so far. They are:

The Fat Cats: Big ships with turret primary weapon plus escort.

The Dodgers: High mobility ship with great firepower along with a patrol

The Swarm: 6-8 of low pilot skill cheap ships that fly in formation.

Red Team: 4 small ship (usually rebel faction) build of 1 - 3 decent characters with sturdy filler ships.

Red Team hasn't made much of a showing recently. Other than that, though, good analysis!

The wide Falcon is an easy list to fly, pumps out damage and can take hits, and gets run far more often than the Phantom. Ergo it isn't the Phantom that needs a counter, it's the turreted Large Ship. 2015 will be the year of the Large Turreted Ship, especially with the introduction of two more, and if you thought the Falcon was hard to kill just wait until you meet the Decimator.

Looking forward to autothrusters as a step in the right direction for people wanting to run small ships!

Sorry, i believe this is partly wrong!

1. Look at tournaments from last few months. A lot of Fat Hans but as many Phantom/Miniswarm builds (that will now switch somewhat to the Phantom/Decimator builds). I dont think Falcons get run more often or more sucessfully atm.

2. Early in 2015 Autothrusters will hit the meta, probably making the Starviper and the Interceptor pretty competitive. 2015 will probably not be the year of the large turreted ship!

3. And this is the important one. It is not the Falcon that needs a counter. Counters exist in good quantity. Look at 2013 Worlds. Swarms and 2-3 B-Wings/Biggs dominated Falcon builds. It's too much damage for it to handle. Even a few bonus evades wont change this, same thing for the decimator too. The problem was that these low Pilot skill ships stand no chance against Phantoms at all. They are pretty much gone from top 8. So for the Rebel players, it was Han or bust pretty much. 3-Ships are too fragile, 4-ships too low on PS. For the imperials te genuine swarm also was prey to phantoms (and to Predator). A lot of Howlrunner swarms therefore disappeared. What i mean is that it's the Phantom more than any other ship forces counter builds and interdicts others. It's not the Falcon nor any other turret ship!

Realistically aren't we just countering C3P0?

Outmaneuver does a great job of this.

Realistically aren't we just countering C3P0?

Outmaneuver does a great job of this.

Yes and no. All it really does is counter for 1 attack. Unless you are running OM on all of your ships and you are out of arc, then C3 will still go off. Its a very-soft counter at best.

Falcon meta is here to stay until they print the nuclear option or just ban Han Solo outright.

This year I suspect it's going to be Han + Squad Leader with HLC Dash.

Shores up the handful of weaknesses that exist for both Dash and Han.

Crushes Phantoms. Eats Swarms for breakfast.

Except it is not. Firesprays are able to handle Falcons, and they are getting new life with the Scum versions. And there is still plenty we don't know about Wave 6, with 2 more cannons and a few more pilots. I think there is something good about IG-2000 that we haven't seen it yet.

And to predict the meta of next year is ignorance. We don't have the full picture of Wave 6, and who knows what new surprises FFG has for us. To say that it isn't going to change from Wave 5 is ignorant of how a meta can evolve.

I'm unclear on your motivations. Is the current Meta bad?

All meta is, IMO, is what people are playing right now. It is useful in planing your own lists because you can predict what they will likely be facing.

I personally prefer to play away from the meta. If I can come up with a list that is just as good, but people haven't seen a 100 times good for me.

I much prefer that to playing a list that might be good, but I didn't get to create myself. It just isn't as much fun.

Can I ask for a reevaluation?

We don't know what SV will look like, so lets leave that out for now. Imperial and Rebel only

If only Wave 5, the evaluation is much simpler. If added Wave 6 data, then autothrusters and Dash make Ints possible.

I'd place it like this:

Tank (Fat Han)

Dash

Stress Decimators + Other (ties/shuttles/phantoms)

Phantom

TIE swarm (The rebel swarm does not exist competitively)

--

4 or 5 ship Rebel (including control variants)

Interceptors Autothrusters (WAVE 6)

DarkTemplar's Nationals List variants. (Phantom Interceptor Auto Shuttle) (WAVE6)

Currently data suggests Decimators are at least popular and somewhat decent.

Dash is also known to be very powerful. The reason I exclude dash from turrets and han is that the counter is different. The counter to Dash is high PS 8 9 and mobility. NOT tankiness and damage output which is the counter to Han.

The presence of Han and Decimators makes 4 Rebel control a viable option. Also, this build can be compensated to deal with Phantoms too.

I'm unclear on your motivations. Is the current Meta bad?

All meta is, IMO, is what people are playing right now. It is useful in planing your own lists because you can predict what they will likely be facing.

I personally prefer to play away from the meta. If I can come up with a list that is just as good, but people haven't seen a 100 times good for me.

I much prefer that to playing a list that might be good, but I didn't get to create myself. It just isn't as much fun.

Personally, I want to live in a world in which "The Known Build" is simply a building block, rather than "The Best". One of constant discovery.

As it stands, I've been hearing about Phantoms and Fat Hans for so long that I'm hearing the creative process stagnate.

This thread was started as a way to break that stagnation and get the creativity flowing again.

For that matter, that's why I'm largely unhappy with the "Wait 'til the Scum save us all" mentality. I want to crack the problem from a different direction with what we already have.

The Darth Vader and Rebel Captive crew are both excellent counters to Phantoms that are not yet being used.

There is likely hope with Dantels' Flechette-Control for the same purpose.

Bombs are also bandied about as being a superb counter, and they will remain unchanged by Scum, save for the Andrasta and Bomb Loadout upgrades for 2 of the 3 factions.

Surely there are more options as well.

Why aren't we attempting to explore this design space in this meta?

I honestly don't think SV will save the meta. Though it will broaden the choices quite a lot.

I do think that SV will cause casual gamers to have a great time, as your chances of meeting the meta builds will diminish. Also it will go back to Wave 3 style where if you have a STYLE and you fly it incredibly well, you can go up against known builds because they haven't prepared for you. Too many choices!