this card does have the potential to separate the WAACs from the Casuals.

There's a rather large place between expecting someone to remember their options and WAAC. I don't want to win at all costs, but I also don't think it's up to me point out every mistake you make.

Yes, sure - but how you go about navigating how you deal with someone will say a lot about what sort of player you are and if I would enjoy playing with you.

If I forget and say, '****, I screwed up there', there's a big difference between you saying "Hey, go ahead and take that evade" and you cackling and saying: "Fool; I have you now!" (Of course, if you say the latter with just the right tone of voice, you'll have my respect.)

As I said (more or less) in another thread: the 'fly casual' norm is not a hard divide. It's a fuzzy divide which allows us to communicate to one another what sort of people we are, and how much we will enjoy eachother's company. If the thrill of victory is what you really care about - then more power to you. I'm sure there are plenty of people who also enjoy that.

For my sake, I think being generous with one another's flaws makes for a more enjoyable game. I do think that if you're continually making the exact mistake, then you're not doing me the courtesy of being 'with it'. That will eventually annoy me as well, but in most situations we learn, and all is well.

Best thing about this thread?

Title: "Spider sense tingling...Ysanne Isard to cause tension between WAAC and 'Fly Casual' players..."

3 pages of arguing about what constitutes casual or WAAC ensues. Self fulfilling prophecy = best prophecy.

If I forget and say, '****, I screwed up there', there's a big difference between you saying "Hey, go ahead and take that evade" and you cackling and saying: "Fool; I have you now!" (Of course, if you say the latter with just the right tone of voice, you'll have my respect.)

Why is everything so arbitrary with you people? There's a lot of room between "Hey, go ahead and take your evade" and "Fool, I have you now" for people to simply shrug off the misplay and get on with the game.

Yes, sure - but how you go about navigating how you deal with someone will say a lot about what sort of player you are and if I would enjoy playing with you.

I agree completely. My issue with the attitude I see from some here, is the expectation that they be allowed to fix a mistake. That if I don't let someone fix a mistake they make then I'm morally inferior to them.

The OP even starts with it being WAAC to do otherwise, which is a very loaded term. He's coming right out and calling people names and trying to browbeat people into letting him get away with things. Is there anything really "Fly Casual" about that kind of attitude? I remember one person who stated that he'd resort to physical assault if someone didn't let him take an action if he forgot...

It's a bit like calling someone a racist if they don't do X. You're starting off from a place of ad hominem attacks from the very start.

Oh! Look! Another crappy thread flooded by the "We are teh fly casual embodiment, you competitive player WAAC die die die".

Do you want to know a thing ? You, the dude calling other guys for not enjoying the game the same way you do, you are the true cancer in this community, you are the only dissenting voice full of prejudice and hatred who is unable or doesn't want to find a compromising point between both parts, you should go with your toxic attitude somewhere else. Yeah, you.

I don't see why we should let people keep abusing "fly casual" like this. The correct term for the kind of person who will endlessly lecture you about how you're taking the game too seriously is "casual at all costs". They aren't actually casual players, they're very serious players who hate it when don't play the game the way they want you to play it. For a true "casual" player not being allowed to get the evade token you forgot is no big deal. After all, winning doesn't really matter, so who cares if your ship takes an extra point of damage? It's only a problem for "casual at all costs" players who can't stand the thought of losing a game for the "wrong" reason.

If I forget and say, '****, I screwed up there', there's a big difference between you saying "Hey, go ahead and take that evade" and you cackling and saying: "Fool; I have you now!" (Of course, if you say the latter with just the right tone of voice, you'll have my respect.)

Why is everything so arbitrary with you people? There's a lot of room between "Hey, go ahead and take your evade" and "Fool, I have you now" for people to simply shrug off the misplay and get on with the game.

I'm not sure what you mean by arbitrary in this context. It sounds like you mean binary, or black/white, which the next paragraph in my post negates.

Oh! Look! Another crappy thread flooded by the "We are teh fly casual embodiment, you competitive player WAAC die die die".

Do you want to know a thing ? You, the dude calling other guys for not enjoying the game the same way you do, you are the true cancer in this community, you are the only dissenting voice full of prejudice and hatred who is unable or doesn't want to find a compromising point between both parts, you should go with your toxic attitude somewhere else. Yeah, you.

How so? I'm just saying that if you're excessively hard nosed, I might not enjoy playing with you. How is that prejudiced or hateful?

I don't see why we should let people keep abusing "fly casual" like this. The correct term for the kind of person who will endlessly lecture you about how you're taking the game too seriously is "casual at all costs". They aren't actually casual players, they're very serious players who hate it when don't play the game the way they want you to play it. For a true "casual" player not being allowed to get the evade token you forgot is no big deal. After all, winning doesn't really matter, so who cares if your ship takes an extra point of damage? It's only a problem for "casual at all costs" players who can't stand the thought of losing a game for the "wrong" reason.

Okay, learned one, what is the true definition of 'fly casual'?

Okay, learned one, what is the true definition of 'fly casual'?

"Don't be TFG."

If you've played in tournaments for other games you know exactly the kind of person I'm talking about: the guy who gloats endlessly about every victory, rules lawyers every gray area, tries to win with "psychological strategies" like rushing their opponent so that they're distracted and make mistakes, and then ragequits if the impossible happens and they lose a game. For this kind of person every game is a life-or-death struggle to prove how superior they are, and whether you enjoy the game at all is irrelevant.

In this case "fly casual" is the difference between simply acknowledging that your opponent made a mistake that can't be taken back (according to the clear rules provided by FFG) and laughing at how stupid your opponent is for making a fatal error as you inflict the extra damage on their ship. It does NOT mean that you're obligated to help your opponent make the best strategy choices and stop them from making mistakes.

Okay, learned one, what is the true definition of 'fly casual'?

Well for starters I can tell you whats not "Flying Casual" and that is thinking someone is a lesser human being for not allowing you to take back a missed opportunity.

How many people have forgotten to declare a guess for c3po?

How many people have forgotten to declare a guess for c3po?

People who fly Fat Han get no sympathy from me...

Oh! Look! Another crappy thread flooded by the "We are teh fly casual embodiment, you competitive player WAAC die die die".

Do you want to know a thing ? You, the dude calling other guys for not enjoying the game the same way you do, you are the true cancer in this community, you are the only dissenting voice full of prejudice and hatred who is unable or doesn't want to find a compromising point between both parts, you should go with your toxic attitude somewhere else. Yeah, you.

How so? I'm just saying that if you're excessively hard nosed, I might not enjoy playing with you. How is that prejudiced or hateful?

Did you just read my post and thought it was directed at you ? I read the OP, found stupidity, pointed it out, moved on from this crap thread. If you want to fuel it with shitposting, is up to you.

The principle is simple - remembering things is one of the skills of the game.

I agree, the fact that it's a bit of a no-brainer just doesn't matter.

I disagree quite strongly. This isn't a "memory game", it's a sort-of-deckbuilder (although less than the 'Attack Wing' cousins) combined with maneuvering tactics game. THAT is the game I want to play.

If I wanted to play a memory game, I'd be playing Concentration, instead of X-Wing.

That's the very definition of the spirit of WAAC, IMHO - trying to win by something other than out-maneuvering your opponent, or out-building them. So, yes, I do remind my opponent when they have forgot to put a token down and/or seemed like they were going to forget to take actions on a ship. I'm planning to beat them by having a better list, or flying my ships better, not because my memory is working really well that day.

WAAC vs 'Fly Casual', folks. Always go with 'fly casual'!

That's a pretty foolish analogy. So you want someone to hold your hand basically, and play the game for you?

If I buy a plane ticket, and get a hotel room to attend the worlds next year, I'm sorry but I'm not going to remind anyone If I realize it

It's called capitalizing on your opponents mistakes.

If it's a friendly game here at home, I don't care, and we remind one another all the time if it's obvious they would have focus. but if I'm spending hundred or thousands of dollars to attend an event, ya I'm going there to win.

Win or lose I'll have fun, but in these kind of events where people travel from all over the world, don't expect to be walked through the game holding your hand as though we are walking through tulips

If you are going to be there don't expect to be babysat,

This is what tournaments are about. If you expect to head to a huge event, and forgot to do an action like cloak after shooting, or put out your evade

Now if you declared it, I'm fine with that, but if nothing is said, and we are past that point, to bad so sad. It's even mentioned in the tournament rules under missed opportunity

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand. Even in a friendly game last week, I realized that during the planning phase a ship didn't get its stress from the rebel captive.

I pointed it out, and said well I forgot so that is a missed opportunity.

I forgot a few times and that cost me the game.

Had I remembered then I probably would have won. There were a few th I things I forgot because I was also dead tired

Which is another point.

If you get lack of sleep, or was up extra early it's things like that that will effect your game. Which is on you. Not me or anyone else to remind them. This also shows how players can play and keep up their best in long grueling games. If your playing 6-7-8 games, by the end of the day everyone is tired. This is a time where if your lucky an opponent who maybe stronger than you may forget something he normally wouldn't. In which case may cost him the game.

It's how a tournament structure is suppose to be.

It's as the saying goes

"May the best man win"

Not

"May the best man win with my help"

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand. Even in a friendly game last week, I realized that during the planning phase a ship didn't get its stress from the rebel captive.

I pointed it out, and said well I forgot so that is a missed opportunity.

I forgot a few times and that cost me the game.

Had I remembered then I probably would have won. There were a few th I things I forgot because I was also dead tired

This is a bad example because RC is a mandatory ability. You don't get to choose whether or not you want to put stress on the ship, it automatically gets a stress token. Failing to apply the stress token isn't a strategy mistake, it's breaking the rules. If you notice a failure to apply a stress token and don't say anything because the mistake is in your favor then you are cheating. And if you notice it late the appropriate solution, assuming nothing relevant has happened (like the ship performing a red maneuver that they shouldn't have done), is to put a stress token on it and restore a legal game state.

The scenario in the OP is completely different because it's a voluntary ability. Not taking your evade action is normally a really stupid thing to do, but it's perfectly legal. So that takes it out of the area of keeping a legal game state (where both players have a shared responsibility) and into the area of strategy choice (where you have no obligation to help your opponent).

Oh! Look! Another crappy thread flooded by the "We are teh fly casual embodiment, you competitive player WAAC die die die".

Do you want to know a thing ? You, the dude calling other guys for not enjoying the game the same way you do, you are the true cancer in this community, you are the only dissenting voice full of prejudice and hatred who is unable or doesn't want to find a compromising point between both parts, you should go with your toxic attitude somewhere else. Yeah, you.

How so? I'm just saying that if you're excessively hard nosed, I might not enjoy playing with you. How is that prejudiced or hateful?

Did you just read my post and thought it was directed at you ? I read the OP, found stupidity, pointed it out, moved on from this crap thread. If you want to fuel it with shitposting, is up to you.

I wasn't sure if you were referring to me, but when you said "yeah, you", then it just seemed you were speaking directly to me. Also, the fact that you did not cite whom you were addressing, and I was the most recent (and frequent) poster for the pro-'Fly Casual' side.

Okay, learned one, what is the true definition of 'fly casual'?

If you've played in tournaments for other games you know exactly the kind of person I'm talking about: the guy who gloats endlessly about every victory, rules lawyers every gray area, tries to win with "psychological strategies" like rushing their opponent so that they're distracted and make mistakes, and then ragequits if the impossible happens and they lose a game. For this kind of person every game is a life-or-death struggle to prove how superior they are, and whether you enjoy the game at all is irrelevant.

Sorry, I have not encountered this creature in the tournaments I've played in. Also, the people that I've played with who have been more towards the WAAC end, weren't all that unreasonable. I'm perfectly fine being corrected on a mistake and not getting a take-back - especially at a tournament.

Okay, learned one, what is the true definition of 'fly casual'?

"Don't be TFG."

...

In this case "fly casual" is the difference between simply acknowledging that your opponent made a mistake that can't be taken back (according to the clear rules provided by FFG) and laughing at how stupid your opponent is for making a fatal error as you inflict the extra damage on their ship. It does NOT mean that you're obligated to help your opponent make the best strategy choices and stop them from making mistakes.

Dude,

If you want to paint my argument into a corner that I'm not arguing for, then you're TFG. You're also TFG who is saying that my definition is wrong, and then says your position is... basically what I was writing about a few posts previously.

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand. Even in a friendly game last week, I realized that during the planning phase a ship didn't get its stress from the rebel captive.I pointed it out, and said well I forgot so that is a missed opportunity.I forgot a few times and that cost me the game.Had I remembered then I probably would have won. There were a few th I things I forgot because I was also dead tired

This is a bad example because RC is a mandatory ability. You don't get to choose whether or not you want to put stress on the ship, it automatically gets a stress token. Failing to apply the stress token isn't a strategy mistake, it's breaking the rules. If you notice a failure to apply a stress token and don't say anything because the mistake is in your favor then you are cheating. And if you notice it late the appropriate solution, assuming nothing relevant has happened (like the ship performing a red maneuver that they shouldn't have done), is to put a stress token on it and restore a legal game state.The scenario in the OP is completely different because it's a voluntary ability. Not taking your evade action is normally a really stupid thing to do, but it's perfectly legal. So that takes it out of the area of keeping a legal game state (where both players have a shared responsibility) and into the area of strategy choice (where you have no obligation to help your opponent).

It was my ship who had rebel captive

He shot and I carried on.

I then realized I'm the planning phase that I forgot, and said so, but it was my fault and cost me the game

Imo it is not cheating

At this stage my opponent had already set his dial and giving his shop a stress from last round would mean he would have to rethink all his moves.

Why should he? That was my mistake

Maybe it not intended but sounds like your trying to call me a cheater?

It's an honest mistake on my part one that cost me the game.

I know how rebel captive works, buy if it's something that was done two turns ago and was forgotten, we cannot go back in time and you most certainly can't expect to get the token three turns later

That's why it's called missed opportunity.

And also I above statement was directed another guy who compared this game to a game of memory

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand. Even in a friendly game last week, I realized that during the planning phase a ship didn't get its stress from the rebel captive.I pointed it out, and said well I forgot so that is a missed opportunity.I forgot a few times and that cost me the game.Had I remembered then I probably would have won. There were a few th I things I forgot because I was also dead tired

This is a bad example because RC is a mandatory ability. You don't get to choose whether or not you want to put stress on the ship, it automatically gets a stress token. Failing to apply the stress token isn't a strategy mistake, it's breaking the rules. If you notice a failure to apply a stress token and don't say anything because the mistake is in your favor then you are cheating. And if you notice it late the appropriate solution, assuming nothing relevant has happened (like the ship performing a red maneuver that they shouldn't have done), is to put a stress token on it and restore a legal game state.The scenario in the OP is completely different because it's a voluntary ability. Not taking your evade action is normally a really stupid thing to do, but it's perfectly legal. So that takes it out of the area of keeping a legal game state (where both players have a shared responsibility) and into the area of strategy choice (where you have no obligation to help your opponent).

Apparently you didn't quite understand what I said

It was my ship who had rebel captive

He shot and I carried on.

I then realized I'm the planning phase that I forgot, and said so, but it was my fault and cost me the game

Imo it is not cheating

At this stage my opponent had already set his dial and giving his shop a stress from last round would mean he would have to rethink all his moves.

Why should he? That was my mistake

Maybe it not intended but sounds like your trying to call me a cheater?

I think he knew exactly what you meant, what he was saying was that because RC is a mandatory effect, the game state should be corrected if possible.

in the situation assuming the first ship had not moved yet on the following turn, a stress should be applied and if required he will need to change his dials.

the way you describe it, he was aware that that the effect was missed and didn't mention it. Because it is a mandatory effect and he knew about it and didn't say anything, he is actually cheating, even more so for not allowing you to correct the game state after the fact.

Dude,

If you want to paint my argument into a corner that I'm not arguing for, then you're TFG. You're also TFG who is saying that my definition is wrong, and then says your position is... basically what I was writing about a few posts previously.

Oh FFS, please go back and read our previous posts in this thread. I made my initial comments about the situation without any reference to you or your opinion. YOU were the one who created a disagreement with your sarcastic "why don't you tell us your definition" post. I all I'm doing is repeating your position from earlier posts then why did you make such a confrontational post and imply that your position is not in agreement with mine?

Why should he? That was my mistake

Why should he? Because that's what the rules say. It doesn't matter who benefits from breaking the rules, all that matters is that a legal game state is maintained. Both players have a mutual responsibility to do so regardless of who might benefit from an illegal game state.

The simple fact here is that RC is not an optional ability, the stress is applied automatically even if neither player immediately puts a token next to the ship. As soon as either player notices that the token wasn't placed they are obligated to point this out and place the token. The only exception is if the game has progressed too far to correct the mistake without speculating about what "should" have happened (for example, the ship took a white maneuver followed by a focus action, and then spent that action to modify dice). In this case no speculation is required, only a little extra time to change some dials.

I don't expect anyone to hold my hand. Even in a friendly game last week, I realized that during the planning phase a ship didn't get its stress from the rebel captive.I pointed it out, and said well I forgot so that is a missed opportunity.I forgot a few times and that cost me the game.Had I remembered then I probably would have won. There were a few th I things I forgot because I was also dead tired

This is a bad example because RC is a mandatory ability. You don't get to choose whether or not you want to put stress on the ship, it automatically gets a stress token. Failing to apply the stress token isn't a strategy mistake, it's breaking the rules. If you notice a failure to apply a stress token and don't say anything because the mistake is in your favor then you are cheating. And if you notice it late the appropriate solution, assuming nothing relevant has happened (like the ship performing a red maneuver that they shouldn't have done), is to put a stress token on it and restore a legal game state.The scenario in the OP is completely different because it's a voluntary ability. Not taking your evade action is normally a really stupid thing to do, but it's perfectly legal. So that takes it out of the area of keeping a legal game state (where both players have a shared responsibility) and into the area of strategy choice (where you have no obligation to help your opponent).

Apparently you didn't quite understand what I said

It was my ship who had rebel captive

He shot and I carried on.

I then realized I'm the planning phase that I forgot, and said so, but it was my fault and cost me the game

Imo it is not cheating

At this stage my opponent had already set his dial and giving his shop a stress from last round would mean he would have to rethink all his moves.

Why should he? That was my mistake

Maybe it not intended but sounds like your trying to call me a cheater?

I think he knew exactly what you meant, what he was saying was that because RC is a mandatory effect, the game state should be corrected if possible.

in the situation assuming the first ship had not moved yet on the following turn, a stress should be applied and if required he will need to change his dials.

the way you describe it, he was aware that that the effect was missed and didn't mention it. Because it is a mandatory effect and he knew about it and didn't say anything, he is actually cheating, even more so for not allowing you to correct the game state after the fact.

One that did not benifit me at all.

I woukd like to remind folks that the _actual_ world champion, during the _actual_ tournament reminded his opponent to take some shots that his opponent would have forgotten about.

As the holy Bhudah Mohammed Moses Christo once said: let he whose brain has never farted place the first evade token.

That's what we're talking about, I think. Not something like constantly forgetting, just the simple act of making that small mistake when performing a routine operation. You can't really "learn" how not to have brain farts. By definition, once someone is skilled enough that a failure comes down to a brain fart, they already know the game. So why punish it?

For me, it's the better victory to have been gracious, and the better defeat to know my opponent had every opportunity.

I woukd like to remind folks that the _actual_ world champion, during the _actual_ tournament reminded his opponent to take some shots that his opponent would have forgotten about.

As the holy Bhudah Mohammed Moses Christo once said: let he whose brain has never farted place the first evade token.

That's what we're talking about, I think. Not something like constantly forgetting, just the simple act of making that small mistake when performing a routine operation. You can't really "learn" how not to have brain farts. By definition, once someone is skilled enough that a failure comes down to a brain fart, they already know the game. So why punish it?

For me, it's the better victory to have been gracious, and the better defeat to know my opponent had every opportunity.

It is mandatory and not stating so if notice is cheating

An action such as a focus, or boost is not mandatory

So in this case he played it right.

If he noticed and didn't say anything that would be cheating

People seem to get caught up in the whole fly casual thing at times.

It's a great way to play yes

Playing local, friendly, or tournament, sure.

But bigger events like national or world's it starts to change.

It's different when you only have to drive 10-15 min to maybe drive 10-12 hours or fly2-4 hours and pay for food and rooms.

The fly casual can still be maintained but at a slightly different level.

I think a person would be selfish if they expected someone who spent a lot of money to attend an event to let them have backsies

We are adults, not children playing a game, and we all know the rules

Certain things are still expected such as being a good sportsman, and the like, but you cannot expect people who travel to attend to hold someone hand.

If they do that's fine.

But many won't.

I believe if you win the world championship, someone didn't hold your hand reminding you of your actions.

It's not your opponents responsibility to fly his build and yours at the same time

You put it together so it's your responsibility to know how and when to do things.

As the day goes on people get more tired and more forgetful

It can't be helped. It's those who remember and don't need someone to hold their hands that come out on top.

Not someone who keeps forgetting to take a free evade

OP was eating his Trolliolio's today. Any thread with WAAC in the heading never ends well.

Dude,

If you want to paint my argument into a corner that I'm not arguing for, then you're TFG. You're also TFG who is saying that my definition is wrong, and then says your position is... basically what I was writing about a few posts previously.

Oh FFS, please go back and read our previous posts in this thread. I made my initial comments about the situation without any reference to you or your opinion. YOU were the one who created a disagreement with your sarcastic "why don't you tell us your definition" post. I all I'm doing is repeating your position from earlier posts then why did you make such a confrontational post and imply that your position is not in agreement with mine?

Okay, we're clearly working hard on talking past one another. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (posting casually), and presume that I'm the one not thinking clearly.

I guess I'm also a bit weirded out by your characterization because when I'm usually playing, I'm flying casual by proactively giving my opponent breaks when there was a clear mistake. That way he doesn't have to do the sad puppy-dog eyes at me. Frequently, he'll refuse and say "No, fair is fair, I'll take the hit."

I've just not encountered this 'casual-at-all-costs' kind of player, just like I have not encountered the "the guy who gloats endlessly about every victory". I'm guessing we just play in very different social environments.

OP was eating his Trolliolio's today. Any thread with WAAC in the heading never ends well.

Wow, that's ironic. Pot calling kettle black.

It's funny how the casuals seem to get bunched up the worst about things that are ancillary to gameplay as if trying to enforce some code of behavior and then beat their chest like they're better because the own the high ground. It's truly entertaining because the true fact is this just a game and there's no reason to get so invested in it. When I scrimmage with my friends, we hard ass each other about little things because we're trying to improve from the experience of gaming. It's an exercise in mental discipline. Some people don't like that idea because it doesn't represent their idea of what gaming is, right? Gaming should be fun, right? What if competing at a high level of stress is fun to some people too? All my friends are competitive gamers that come from CS, SCII, TF2 backgrounds. We play to win because the idea of having a casual game is like having to baby sit your kid brother while your friends go out and play street hockey. You're indoors playing Candyland while your bro's are out there getting bloody and having real fun.

It's different strokes for everyone, but remember the WAAC crowd has feelings too...oh and cheers OP:

This topic AGAIN? Obviously it's repackaged to fit a new card but it's the same exact thing.

At tournaments you have both people who are super laid back about actions and missed opportunities and you have people that are hyper-aggressive by the rules, no leway.

And the same goes for casual play. There are people that are no fun to play against no matter what the setting.

Things are what you make of them.