Well as an EU nerd it makes me angry because they are totally portraying the Empire the opposite that they are. (I'm not sexist btw, it's just the empire is and they aren't really portraying that) The Empire had a policy called HuMan meaning discrimination against non humans (specism, xenophobia?) and against women. (with notable exceptions to brilliant people like Thrawn, Daala, and "Iceheart"). On a slightly OT note, who wants Admiral Ackbar to be a main supporting character in the new movies?

OMG check your privalige!!!

The Empire had a policy called HuMan meaning discrimination against non humans (specism, xenophobia?) and against women.

To be fair, that was more the Emperor's opinion, which of course set the tone for the Empire as a whole. But once he was gone, there's no need for that to stay, especially with the Empire shrinking like it did in the Heir to the Empire series, they wouldn't have the luxury of turning away talented people just because they were women any longer.

yea, I know, but even then, women and other species had to be very talented to get in high places.

OMG check your privalige!!!

Grow up.

Hehehe,

Ya'll know I'm game for this debate again.

I had an even older thread ( Is the Empire No Longer Sexist? ) this summer on this particular topic of "women's lib" in the Empire. It ran seven pages and did not get locked.

But, instead of souring the mood, let me agree with That Blasted Samophlange about the uniforms, and keep this discussion focused on the nature of the Empire.

I'm generally in favor of continuity where scrapping the old EU isn't absolutely necessary. The Empire's sexism is quite well established in there, but we've had a lot of focus on the exceptions to the rule. (I don't think Daala was a particular exception, given that she got her position by being Tarkin's mistress, but I forget the specifics. Kevin J. Anderson is not exactly my fav EU author.)

That said, I think the consensus (or at least prevalently-stated opinion) was that the EU changed and moved away from depicting it as sexist and leaving it just as specieist (or whatever the proper term for that is).

Grow up.

Pretty sure it was a joke.

I borrowed a book 'star wars visual enclopedia' from the library and in the 'rebel pilots' section there is not only a cockpit interiror shot of a black pilot i dont recognise from the OT (possible special edition retcon) but a female x or y wing pilot i didnt recall either (another possible SE retcon?)

Well as an EU nerd it makes me angry because they are totally portraying the Empire the opposite that they are. (I'm not sexist btw, it's just the empire is and they aren't really portraying that) The Empire had a policy called HuMan meaning discrimination against non humans (specism, xenophobia?) and against women. (with notable exceptions to brilliant people like Thrawn, Daala, and "Iceheart"). On a slightly OT note, who wants Admiral Ackbar to be a main supporting character in the new movies?

New canon has dropped most of that. The Empire oppresses everyone equally now.

Means they'll have to revamp Daala but that's not much of a sacrifice. Personally I prefer the Empire not being space Nazis.

leaving it just as specieist (or whatever the proper term for that is).

Xenophobic. Although the new EU seems to have many more "tolerated" species in the Empire than just humans. It's more xenophobic against aliens that they can freely crush like Wookiees while being fairly soft on Chaagrin and Twi'leks and stuff rather than a Dalek-like "non-human is bad".

was that the EU changed and moved away from depicting it as sexist and leaving it just as specieist (or whatever the proper term for that is).

One part of the sexism that never sat quite right with me, was Mara. I mean I get she must of been truly Bada** to get to that spot, but I just can't quite get someone who is as sexist at the Emperor would ever let a woman be his Hand. Although I suppose that does offer the Hand even more protection because no one would ever expect a woman.

Clearly Thrawn would of had a completely different opinion on the HuMan thing, so I can see why things would of changed under his leadership. But like all massive organizations it takes time to overcome inertia.

Pretty sure it was a joke.

I get that, but it's normally a joke made by people who use 'Feminist' as an insult or a joke too.

was that the EU changed and moved away from depicting it as sexist and leaving it just as specieist (or whatever the proper term for that is).

One part of the sexism that never sat quite right with me, was Mara. I mean I get she must of been truly Bada** to get to that spot, but I just can't quite get someone who is as sexist at the Emperor would ever let a woman be his Hand. Although I suppose that does offer the Hand even more protection because no one would ever expect a woman.

Clearly Thrawn would of had a completely different opinion on the HuMan thing, so I can see why things would of changed under his leadership. But like all massive organizations it takes time to overcome inertia.

Pretty sure the Emperor isn't sexist in his latest incarnation. He's not a fan of the most alien of the alien species though.

but a female x or y wing pilot i didnt recall either (another possible SE retcon?)

There was a woman X-Wing and A-Wing pilot in RotJ, but they both effectively got cut out by GL. Vivienne Chandler had a page and half of dialog, but the whole thing was cut.

New canon has dropped most of that. The Empire oppresses everyone equally now.

By new canon do you mean they're going in and changing it, or that the Empire stopped being sexist after Endor?

I for one like the fact that Women are in The Empire. It's kind of cool to see. If they really want to enforce human supremacy then obviously, opening their recruitment pool to women is the best idea.

...Also women in Imperial uniforms are just...

Sweet Jesus.

OMG check your privalige!!!

Grow up.

And lose my boyish good looks? no thank you.

but a female x or y wing pilot i didnt recall either (another possible SE retcon?)

There was a woman X-Wing and A-Wing pilot in RotJ, but they both effectively got cut out by GL. Vivienne Chandler had a page and half of dialog, but the whole thing was cut.

New canon has dropped most of that. The Empire oppresses everyone equally now.

By new canon do you mean they're going in and changing it, or that the Empire stopped being sexist after Endor?

Changing it by means of not bringing a sexist Empire up and female naval officers being very common.

Please more uniforms.

I dunno. I think some of these boys who want to always see more boys and just be around boys might be Uhh. Interested in boys?

One part of the sexism that never sat quite right with me, was Mara. I mean I get she must of been truly Bada** to get to that spot, but I just can't quite get someone who is as sexist at the Emperor would ever let a woman be his Hand. Although I suppose that does offer the Hand even more protection because no one would ever expect a woman.

Clearly Thrawn would of had a completely different opinion on the HuMan thing, so I can see why things would of changed under his leadership. But like all massive organizations it takes time to overcome inertia.

Pretty sure the Emperor isn't sexist in his latest incarnation. He's not a fan of the most alien of the alien species though.

I thought the notion was that the Emperor was simply pragmatic. The sexism and/or speciesism was a rhetoric that could motivate people to support his regime. Behind the scenes, he clearly employed both women and aliens.

What made Mara special was her ability to hear him through the Force. I think Zahn wanted to take GL's cue that Force sensitivity was really quite rare. Other stories have wanted to employ more and more Force-sensitive characters, and so we see the world awash with people whose mastery of the Force is much beyond what Mara was capable of.

Changing it by means of not bringing a sexist Empire up and female naval officers being very common.

Ok I often wondered how much of the HuMan thing was a way to explain something after the fact. "Why are there no girls in the Empire?" "Ummm well you see... The Emperor was sexist, yeah that's it. He didn't like women or aliens."

Btw. As far as I know of Eu level canon. The speceism doesn't exactly come down from the emperor. It's more implied from other corrupt individuals who attain power in the new empire. Definitely I don't think Palestine doesn't care in the slightest.

This explains Mara jade. Also apparently she was that good anyway.

I don't think that 4 or so pilots out of 50 counts as not portraying the empire as sexist btw. Yknow. Just sayinng. Numbers are a thing.

Changing it by means of not bringing a sexist Empire up and female naval officers being very common.

Ok I often wondered how much of the HuMan thing was a way to explain something after the fact. "Why are there no girls in the Empire?" "Ummm well you see... The Emperor was sexist, yeah that's it. He didn't like women or aliens."

I think that's on the money. In the 70s and early 80s, most of the jobs went to white guys. That's just how it was done. When people started to ask those questions, that's likely how they got around it. I mean they were already obviously based on Nazi culture and overwhelmingly human, so why not make them sexist, too?

The thing is - it doesn't actually make sense for a galactic empire to be sexist. You are going to have a hard enough time keeping out all those filthy aliens. Let's not bite your own nose to spite your face.

Further, who cares? The EU established great female characters. While it was often the trope of them being a strong woman in a man's world, that was sort of the thing (and still is in many lazy screenplays).

End of the day: Pick your battles.

Btw. As far as I know of Eu level canon. The speceism doesn't exactly come down from the emperor. It's more implied from other corrupt individuals who attain power in the new empire. Definitely I don't think Palestine doesn't care in the slightest.

This explains Mara jade. Also apparently she was that good anyway.

I don't think that 4 or so pilots out of 50 counts as not portraying the empire as sexist btw. Yknow. Just sayinng. Numbers are a thing.

It's not just this game, though. Rebels and A New Dawn is establishing that the Empire is less sexist than many have wanted to portray them as before. The RPGs are also doing this to an extent. It is rather comical that the Empire is believed to be very exclusionary due to the practical matters of the time the movies were filmed.

Plus I don't see palpatine would care about species, sex, orientation or anything - unless it is a means to power. He has been seen with non-human and human minions. As long as Sheev Palpatine is in control, then Sheev Palpatine doesn't care. If it behooved him to start a droid rebellion, then that is what he would do.

I'm still chuckling over the title: I've not heard feminism described as "women's lib" since the early 1980s.

Granted, I'm still furious that Lucas filmed, edited, and did post production on the scene where Mon Mothma and Padme Amidala form the Rebellion- but the decided to cut that scene from Episode 3.

I wanted to be a little retro.

Changing it by means of not bringing a sexist Empire up and female naval officers being very common.

Ok I often wondered how much of the HuMan thing was a way to explain something after the fact. "Why are there no girls in the Empire?" "Ummm well you see... The Emperor was sexist, yeah that's it. He didn't like women or aliens."

The thing is - it doesn't actually make sense for a galactic empire to be sexist. You are going to have a hard enough time keeping out all those filthy aliens. Let's not bite your own nose to spite your face.

End of the day: Pick your battles.

The sexism of the Nazi party, and its strict adherence to its contrived "traditional gender roles" is fairly well documented. "kinder kirche küche", and all that rot.

Indeed, the fact that sexism and racism make no sense, and are actively counter productive is exactly _why_ many of us have picked this battle. It seems perverse to think that I'd want to live in a society that values everyone's experiences, but then "eh.... Never mind about gaming".

I'm gonna fight against and laugh at bad shutff wherever I see it. And since gaming is my community, I'm gonna see it in gaming.

Maybe I'm just too much of a Dzurlord to do otherwise.

yay. this again.

I know right

Okay so now we should just call the Imperials the good guys.

What is it now instead of the dark side of the force it is the shadow side of the force?

Okay so now we should just call the Imperials the good guys.

... What have you called them??

Hasn't Star Wars always been a tragedy in which terrorists take apart the galaxy's last best hope for law, order, and style?