Yeah, I was mostly arguing practical play rather than distinct rulesets, since if you play the way the rules require, you'd have to do things like pause and say "I'm going to recover hit points, would you like to play a card?", and the game would slow to a crawl, and not the good kind.

^--- This.

I have refrained from this thread, as I don't want to impact how others play. But, I cannot imagine playing with a group of players that are so "lawyer-ly". I definitely don't want my games coming to a crawl, by having to make overt statements about each and everything I (or the others) are going to do, and provide response time.

I think I would rather not play.

I prefer to keep the lawyering out of game time as well. However, I'm of the opinion that the better each player understands the rules (even to this lawyery extent) the less these issues cause arguments while the quests are in progress. As much as D2E has been simplified, it can still get complicated- and unfortunately, I belong to one or two groups where victory is all that matters to some of the members. Sometimes, that means getting picky about triggers and timing and such. I would just as soon play a little more fast and loose.

While it's painfully annoying to pause every time you use an ability to ask "would you like to interrupt what I'm doing with an ability of your own?" it's slightly more annoying to have someone use 4 or 5 abilities and then need to chime in with "hold up- 5 spaces back, when you did that thing, I played Mimic- but you rushed into your other abilities." My groups have come to an understanding about just clearly stating what abilities you're using, and it's the responsibility of the other players to pay attention.

Totally agreed, I'd never actually get into this kind of a discussion during a game! Leave the lawyering to the forums and game time for playing!

I think it's always better to understand as much as possible about the mechanics that underpin what you're doing. Perhaps especially so when the actual practice obscures the technical details of the process or leaves so much to be assumed.

Nobody is ever going to stop play for every possible trigger just in case (I pity the fool who does!) but you want to make sure, as much as is feasible, that everyone understands what's going on and why.

Thanks guys, for all the feedback and input!

Hi!

I think we cracked this mystery.

If you have a surge: Doom , or surge: Stun , or whatever, it means you can trigger that ability- and that ability is always : http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Doom

Ability text: Doom : If this attack deals at least 1 (after the defense roll), the target is Doomed .

Some exapmles:

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Hammer_of_Doom Doom->Doomed

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Openhanded Stun->Stunned

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Medusa Immobilize->Immobilized

So, there it is. One just need to realise a difference between Doom (ability) and Doom ed (condition)

I forgot to conclusion:

So the condition would not trigger in the same attack it was suffered. Because it's suffered after the damage dealt.

Here is one nice exaple where the damage is not needed, and it's nicely explained there.

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Exploit

: Perform an attack. If this attack targets a monster within 3 spaces of a trap token, add 1 additional green die to your attack pool.
This attack gains:
: The target is Weakened (even if you didn't deal any )

@Alarin , you seem to be contradicting yourself here:

12 minutes ago, Alarin said:

…

Ability text: Doom : If this attack deals at least 1 (after the defense roll), the target is Doomed .

…

And here:

9 minutes ago, Alarin said:

… Because it's suffered after the damage dealt.

"After the defence roll" does not equal to "after the damage dealt". Your statement of conditions not triggering on the same attack is misleading at best: Doomed does trigger, while Weakened does not. All the steps in the attack sequence are already explained quite well: conditions are applied in the step of spending surges, way before damage is dealt or suffered.

As a side note I have a strong feeling already seeing you defending that position in some other thread.

That may have been the thread that Jain Fairwood couldn't convert the 1 damage from the Doomed card, because it is not an attack, they someone posted and answer that the Doomed is not a separate damage, that it only increased the damage dealt to you by 1.

This is different.

My friend just noticed that the surge is not the condition itself. It's the ability to deal a condition If this attack deals at least 1 Heart.

Mind the differance Stun (an ability to make the target stunned if it dealt at least 1 heart)

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Stun

http://descent2e.wikia.com/wiki/Stunned

where 'Stun' is a general name for an ability that appears everywhere(shop items, monsters, class cards..) and always have this ability text Stun : If this attack deals at least 1 (after the defense roll), the target is Stunned

Conditions applied during an attack (such as by surge abilities) are inflicted on the affected figure(s) during step 5 of combat, at the time damage is dealt. That is, if "Surge: Doom" is used during step 4, then during step 5 an affected figure receives the "doomed" condition.

Since the effect of "doomed" triggers off of suffering damage (which occurs as a result of dealing damage), doomed will have a noticeable effect during THAT combat step.

Unlike "doomed", "weakened" affects the calculation of damage dealt. While that process is occurring, the target is not yet weakened (because the card is only given IF damage dealt is greater than or equal to 1). Receiving the weakened card does not cause damage dealt to be recalculated, so it only has a noticeable effect in later attacks. This has been confirmed by FFG.

EDIT: Alarin- is that clear, or is there another point you'd like clarification on?

Yes, pretty much, thanks!

I agree that the conditions are dealt in the step 5 of the combat.

Nooooooow I finally got it: The differance between damage dealt and damage suffered works here.

Step 5: Deal damage + Target is Doomed

Step 5.1: Suffer damage - Doomed triggers

Yay!

Is that correct please?

That's why Jain can't avoid the conditions, even if she converts every damage to fatigue.

The damage is still dealt , but not suffered, right?

Yes, that's it, Alarin.