So what if a ship can be one shotted by a flechette torpedo?

Take the hull upgrade if you are so afraid.

Do some defensive flying, evade actions become extremely useful. arc dodgers can excel, so that stays the same.

Expert handling will be really important to remove target locks.

R4-D6 will save your life, not to mention actually being used.

Phantoms will consider the stygium particle accelerator over advanced cloaking device

Sick of your target locks being removed? Take deadeye.

Captain Kagi becomes extremely useful, especially with countermeasures.

Countermeasures is extremely useful in general.

Weapons engineer with b-wing/e2 upgrade becomes deadly on Nera Dantels

Maarek will dominate! TIE advances in general become a viable missile platform.

Navigator can get you out of an arc, saving your big ship.

Positioning becomes paramount in a dog fighting game!

I've been racking my brain to think of a reason why and how the game couldn't be improved by making ordnance ignore shields. More ships get options than lose them. Tactics for everyone have to change - making you have to consider ordnance builds, defensive arc dodger builds, fat han builds swarm builds. Not a single build will be prevalent or useless because everyone will have something to fear.

I might have to test this house rule myself, my only concern is maybe it makes ordnance toooo powerful. Also it sets a dangerous precedent. Afterall, if it's just ray shielding then wouldn't an obstacle like an asteroid or space debris too ignore shields?

I encourage everyone to try it out, then if you like it, send an email to the powers that be at FFG.

I might have to test this house rule myself, my only concern is maybe it makes ordnance toooo powerful. Also it sets a dangerous precedent. Afterall, if it's just ray shielding then wouldn't an obstacle like an asteroid or space debris too ignore shields?

It could lead to a new upgrade:

Particle Shields

2 points - modification

Ordnance attacks are blocked by shields. You cannot fire ordnance with this upgrade.

I routinely fly Nera with two flèchettes, it's pretty nasty, and coupled with Rourke is a devastating anti phantom machine.the other thing to remeber with ordinance is that the oponent doesn't get an extra dice at range three, this helps, especially with wedge. Now that being said I still don't think it balances out but it makes a difference.

Personally it's always bugged me that defense works the same against ordinance as it does against laser fire. I think it should be all or nothing. Either you dodge all hits rolled or you suffer all hits rolled. You can't dodge half a missile, it's one shot.

The solution needs to be such that it doesn't invalidate Homing missiles, since the entire point of that weapon is to permit the Target Lock re-rolls where other ordnance doesn't. What fix can be done that doesn't invalidate that weapon? Auto re-rolls for spent TLs doesn't.

I think if you give Homing Missiles a free Focus with the attack, that it makes Homing Missiles even better. Of course, that might require a reprint, though.

What I like about that rule is that it even makes Blaster Turrets an option.

The real problem I see with ordnance is that it can't affect the results of a bad roll. It's an expensive, one-shot weapon that might just roll bad. The risks aren't worth taking...unless you build your entire list around it (Jonus w/ 3 Bombers).

I really like the idea of Ordnance crits going through shields. B-wings were a little undercosted anyway, and they're really the only ones that have a real chance to be taken out with substantial shields left. It makes Y-wings sort of cool with their 5 hull, you can imagine them just shrugging off hits. Large ships probably won't be destroyed with shields left, but they could have some long term disadvantages that start adding up early, which feels right. Proton Torpedoes wouldn't be amazing, but they'd be sort of like Assault Missiles. They don't make their target unviable, but it gives you a tool to help mitigate their advantages.

Take the hull upgrade if you are so afraid.

So your idea of how to deal with a huge imbalance is to make things more expensive?

The idea of crits going though, that's not so bad, would add some power to secondaries without breaking the rest of the game.

A little bit.

A little bit? You now have a 2 point upgrade that can one shot a 25+ point ship. A ship that typically has lower agility because it has shields, and the whole game was balanced around things like that.

First off, I don't know which 25+ point ship you're talking about. I assume it's the B-wing because of your comment on low agility and shields. But anyway ...

Yeah. A little bit. You're talking about one ship. But again, ordnance isn't as prevalent on the Imperial side, so the B-wing can still hold its own against a TIEs. And if your opponent brings Rebels too, well then you've got just as good a shot at one-shotting their B-wing as they do yours.

Besides, it's only a potential to one-shot. It's not a guarantee. Besides, B-wings get Barrel Roll. If you're worried about ordnance, take Expert Handling.

You're talking about one ship.

No we're not. We're talking about B, X, Z, A, Tie Advanced, Phantom, Defenders... All ships that can be oneshot with a Torp or Missile, because shields don't do anything.

But again, ordnance isn't as prevalent on the Imperial side

Yes because bombers couldn't carry 4 secondaries or anything... Besides balance isn't based on how often something is used.

Besides, it's only a potential to one-shot.

Again, doesn't matter, what matters is that you paid points for a ship with X "HP's" and now there's an upgrade that subtracts many if not most of those HP's... For 5 points that is not balanced.

Take the hull upgrade if you are so afraid.

So your idea of how to deal with a huge imbalance is to make things more expensive?The idea of crits going though, that's not so bad, would add some power to secondaries without breaking the rest of the game.

I also listed a bunch of other options beyond just a hull upgrade.

Ordnance is one shot. It should be powerful because it is not guaranteed. Munitions failsafe helped a bit, but it is a modification, of which (interceptors aside), you can only take one, and it only activates if you miss. So 6 points for an advanced proton torpedo and munitions failsafe is the same as a heavy laser cannon. Which will have a better return? The cannon.

If shields are unnafected by ordnance tactics have to change. You have to stay out of the primary firing arc to avoid the threat of ordnance, use other options which will become more viable as i've noted above to remove yarget locks, or fly in lasers blazing to take out the ordnance heavy craft before they can get off that deadly shot.

This is a dogfighting game, maneuvering will become a huge factor more than ever.

The options I listed above are chosen in response to a potential threat. You shouldn't know what your opponent will field, so the more options you have to avoid that one shot and keep you actively thinking, not to mention taking upgrade/talent options that are ignored now.

Or keep everyrting the same and the game can just be fat han vs fat han and no one using ordnance.

If torpedoes are used to take out massive ships and stations, they should be deadly to a small fighter.

Also, do you use that ordnance on an agile fighter that may cancel most or all of the dice from your expensive ordnance or take a big chunk out of the larger, less agile ship?

Taking two advanced protons is equal to another ship currently. Often you don't get to use the ordnance or it doesn't pay for itself. Most take other options, like the other ship or cannons. It is a better cost than the gamble that is ordnance.

Edit: to those who complain about a ship being one shotted, I guess you don't fly TIEs. They can be destroyed, potentially by an x-wing. Or a-wings.. they can be one shotted. Ot z-95’s, the upcoming scyk, etc.

Is it really an imbalance if the majority of people ignore ordnance right now?

Make Ordnance too good and the balance swings the other way. The trick is to make it balanced, not make it OP'ed so people take it again. Which is what your idea does. Makes them OP'ed for the points.

Edit: to those who complain about a ship being one shotted, I guess you don't fly TIEs.

Which is why they're so cheap.

I think I'm one of the few people that doesn't really have a problem with ordnance. Used at the right time and in the right circumstances they are quite amazing.

If you fire off a missile the first time you get a target lock...yeah, they're pretty terrible. But if you plan your approach and plan your target they can be quite ridiculous. The great thing about ordinance is spike damage. Often times you can take a ship off the board before it can even shoot. That's well worth the 3-4 points if I can take out a 25+ point ship in a single shot. And depending on the build, you can make ordinance pretty reliable.

One of my favorite loadouts is Vessery w/ Ion Cannon, Outmaneuver & Cluster Missiles. I can't tell you many times I've taken out a ship in one round with that.

Boba Fett w/ APT, Rec Spec & Deadeye is also a monster. You're pretty much guaranteed to roll 5 hits with that.

Jonus with multiple bombers w/ cluster missiles is always good fun.

It just comes down to the proper loadout with the proper build at the proper time. I wouldn't waste a proton torpedo on a shielded ship, but I would certainly use a concussion missile. I'm okay with holding a target lock on a ship until I line up a good shot. Then when my 5 point homing missile kills or cripples your 30 point Soontir, I don't consider it wasted points at all.

The less and less ships you see on the board (which has been the trend lately) makes ordinance better and better. Same with ions. Sure sometimes I'll lose a ship before it gets it's shot off, but you can say that about a lot of upgrades.

I just think a lot of people say they suck just because of what other people say or because they haven't given them a fair shake. I've been experimenting with them a lot lately and have actually been quite surprised.

Okay, I really want to make an Ordnance packing Firespray now. I like them on high PS rebels. The high PS allows for a good long-range lock that lets you get the most out of the shot when your primaries are worse. At range three, Protons have a 2 dice advantage over an X-wing's primary. Someone like Wedge or Horton, or someone with an EPT that gives re-rolls or some other bonus to attack is best, I think, because they're ability translates to the Ordnance shot.

Boba Fett w/ APT, Rec Spec & Deadeye is also a monster. You're pretty much guaranteed to roll 5 hits with that.

Concur. I love that build.

I think I'm one of the few people that doesn't really have a problem with ordnance. Used at the right time and in the right circumstances they are quite amazing.

...

I just think a lot of people say they suck just because of what other people say or because they haven't given them a fair shake. I've been experimenting with them a lot lately and have actually been quite surprised.

I've used ordenance. I don't think they suck, but I think they could use a boost. The problem that I see is that you can't make them work without a special rule to make it work. An X-wing with a Proton Torpedo should be better than it is. Can it hit and do a lot of damage? Yes, but the chances are that it won't do much. It does 2 hits on average? It should do more than that.

I agree that with less ships on the table that it is better, which is why I'm not buying a Decimator right away and am trying to get 3 more Tie Bombers. I want to do the "My Name is Jonus" list.

Is it really an imbalance if the majority of people ignore ordnance right now?

Make Ordnance too good and the balance swings the other way. The trick is to make it balanced, not make it OP'ed so people take it again. Which is what your idea does. Makes them OP'ed for the points.

Edit: to those who complain about a ship being one shotted, I guess you don't fly TIEs.

Which is why they're so cheap.

If the ordnance was a guaranteed hit, I would agree. However, it is not. It is one use, barring munitions failure. If ordnance was very dangerous, there would be countless options that would be considered, such as I outlined above, that currently sit at the bottom of most peoples storage containers, right next to the ordnance.

Yes, what I suggest is a drastic change but I feel that the potential changes to the game far out weigh any theoretical imbalance.

I've also suggested people try it (especially before saying it is unbalanced). Perhaps it will be, perhaps there are countless limitations such as being in the arc, range minimums/maximums, enemy actions (evade), pilot skill, etc. That should be considered.

There is also the cost of all that ordnance. Sure you can fully kit out Major Rhymer with 22+ points of ordnance, but that is half your points for one ship that is a big target, and the same goes for any ship. There is a reason bombers and such have escorts - because they are a major threat.

Try it first. It is simple to implement, and doesn't require any new cards or text on existing ones.

It also fits what we know from the movies. Ray shielding prevented the rebels from using lasers. We haven't seen any ordnance in the movies, and the old legends fiction is not a reliable source any more.

Yes, what I suggest is a drastic change but I feel that the potential changes to the game far out weigh any theoretical imbalance.

Drastic changes are pretty much always a bad idea. Because once the change is made, and given the law of unintended consequences it causes more harm than good, you at least have wasted a lot of energy to make thing worse than they were. Or worse have broken things quite possibly beyond repair.

Making something broken in the name of balance is so contradictory in nature that it doesn't need to be stated really. It also doesn't need to be playtested to see how unbalanced the idea is.

That's why I think just letting people use the TL when the fire as the better option.

Well at the least, the shield-bypass rule would make a super fun variant!

I don't think there is a good way to fix the ordnance that is already out there. I think if you want viable ordnance you are just going to have to introduce new cards. Proton torpedo mark 2, advanced concussion missle, that sort of thing

PT mark 2

4 points

range 2-4

2 attack dice

if this attack hits, deal 6 face down damage cards to the target.

Advanced concussion missle

3 points

range 1-3

3 attack dice

I this attack hits, deal 4 face down damage cards to the target.

Would this make old ordnance obsolete? yes, but they are not used much anyway, and I think it is the best way to fix the problem.

Drastic changes are pretty much always a bad idea. Because once the change is made, and given the law of unintended consequences it causes more harm than good, you at least have wasted a lot of energy to make thing worse than they were. Or worse have broken things quite possibly beyond repair.

Making something broken in the name of balance is so contradictory in nature that it doesn't need to be stated really. It also doesn't need to be playtested to see how unbalanced the idea is.

For the rest of us, maybe try it. See how it plays - if you do like it, let FFG know.