I'd been looking through some of the entries on Daemon Weapons, and unless I'm misreading something it seems like many of them will automatically possess anyone who's not a psyker. The thing is that various things will trigger a Daemonic Mastery test, where you have to test your WP against theirs (modified by the Binding Strength) and if you fail they can start trying to possess you.

The problem comes in the fact that one of those triggering conditions seems as if it will keep firing:

• Wielding it.
• Getting stunned.
• Dropping unconscious.
• Having a lower WP than the daemon ("should his Willpower fall below that of the bound daemon")

Considering that a number of Daemon Weapons (especially those in Tome of Blood) have a WP of 50+, it seems as if anyone who doesn't have the same high characteristic will just keep getting poked with Daemonic Mastery tests until one of them fails. I'd hope that I were just reading the rules incorrectly, but if not how have other people dealt with this apparent pathological situation?

The thing is, once you manage to bind the daemon once, the rules only say that the weapon is cowed into obedience and:

After this point, should the wielder’s concentration slip—should he be stunned or rendered unconscious, or should his Willpower fall below that of the bound daemon.

So really that's not a lot of circumstances. From that it's fairly safe to interpret that unless your mental state changes dramatically, the weapon remains under your control and it can try again.

Also I'm not quite sure where you got the wording saying "possess anyone that is not a psyker" as there is nothing which specifically says that however that might have been just an exaggeration and I will happily ignore that if so. Granted it is a Daemonic Mastery test whereby the psyker gets a bonus per point of psy rating (p229, core). Humans and mortals ARE more susceptible to it though, that is normal behaviour. If you think about it, you are battling mentally versus a creature of the warp and only those with significant abilities of manipulating it themselves or of strong will and mental fortitude are even capable of turning things into their favour. Daemonic weapons are items of horrific power and they should not be easy to obtain or use without substantial risk to all involved. The risk of possession is to me a valid consequence.

The way I always interpreted the rules RAW, is that you only roll when first wielding it, and then whenever any time the wielder's concentration slips, such as when getting Stunned, Dropping unconcious, having your Willpower lower lower than that of the daemon, etc, etc.

The big fault of the Daemon rules as I see it is that it doesn't actually settle what happens if the Daemonic Mastery test fails, but the Possession test succeeds.

Is the daemon subjugated, then?

Are you meant to do another Daemonic Mastery test?

I don't know.

Does anyone?

The thing is, once you manage to bind the daemon once, the rules only say that the weapon is cowed into obedience and:

After this point, should the wielder’s concentration slip—should he be stunned or rendered unconscious, or should his Willpower fall below that of the bound daemon.

So really that's not a lot of circumstances. From that it's fairly safe to interpret that unless your mental state changes dramatically, the weapon remains under your control and it can try again.

Also I'm not quite sure where you got the wording saying "possess anyone that is not a psyker" as there is nothing which specifically says that however that might have been just an exaggeration and I will happily ignore that if so. Granted it is a Daemonic Mastery test whereby the psyker gets a bonus per point of psy rating (p229, core). Humans and mortals ARE more susceptible to it though, that is normal behaviour. If you think about it, you are battling mentally versus a creature of the warp and only those with significant abilities of manipulating it themselves or of strong will and mental fortitude are even capable of turning things into their favour. Daemonic weapons are items of horrific power and they should not be easy to obtain or use without substantial risk to all involved. The risk of possession is to me a valid consequence.

The issue is specifically that, for many of the published Daemon Weapons, "your WP is less than its" is a trigger that as written would keep firing until eventually the daemon succeeded and started a possession attempt. The problem is not that possession is a possibility; it's that possession is a certainty in many cases where it likely wasn't intended. (Check the ones in Tome of Blood, for instance; if you can find me a Khornate with WP 70+ then I will eat my hat.)

The bit about psykers was just referring to the fact that only psykers have a decent incentive to get a high WP characteristic; most everybody else can coast with "good enough" values around 40.

The way I always interpreted the rules RAW, is that you only roll when first wielding it, and then whenever any time the wielder's concentration slips, such as when getting Stunned, Dropping unconcious, having your Willpower lower lower than that of the daemon, etc, etc.

The big fault of the Daemon rules as I see it is that it doesn't actually settle what happens if the Daemonic Mastery test fails, but the Possession test succeeds.

Is the daemon subjugated, then?

Are you meant to do another Daemonic Mastery test?

I don't know.

Does anyone?

Possession at least can be staved off; if you succeed/the daemon fails then it can't retry for another day. (Though that's only for one day, and the odds are not nearly so favorable as with the Daemonic Mastery test.)

you're missing a key detail. The binding strength reduces the WP of the demon. So if that 70 wp demon had 4 binding strength then you only need a 51 WP.

The wordi

The thing is, once you manage to bind the daemon once, the rules only say that the weapon is cowed into obedience and:

After this point, should the wielder’s concentration slip—should he be stunned or rendered unconscious, or should his Willpower fall below that of the bound daemon.

So really that's not a lot of circumstances. From that it's fairly safe to interpret that unless your mental state changes dramatically, the weapon remains under your control and it can try again.

Also I'm not quite sure where you got the wording saying "possess anyone that is not a psyker" as there is nothing which specifically says that however that might have been just an exaggeration and I will happily ignore that if so. Granted it is a Daemonic Mastery test whereby the psyker gets a bonus per point of psy rating (p229, core). Humans and mortals ARE more susceptible to it though, that is normal behaviour. If you think about it, you are battling mentally versus a creature of the warp and only those with significant abilities of manipulating it themselves or of strong will and mental fortitude are even capable of turning things into their favour. Daemonic weapons are items of horrific power and they should not be easy to obtain or use without substantial risk to all involved. The risk of possession is to me a valid consequence.

The issue is specifically that, for many of the published Daemon Weapons, "your WP is less than its" is a trigger that as written would keep firing until eventually the daemon succeeded and started a possession attempt. The problem is not that possession is a possibility; it's that possession is a certainty in many cases where it likely wasn't intended. (Check the ones in Tome of Blood, for instance; if you can find me a Khornate with WP 70+ then I will eat my hat.)

The bit about psykers was just referring to the fact that only psykers have a decent incentive to get a high WP characteristic; most everybody else can coast with "good enough" values around 40.

The way I always interpreted the rules RAW, is that you only roll when first wielding it, and then whenever any time the wielder's concentration slips, such as when getting Stunned, Dropping unconcious, having your Willpower lower lower than that of the daemon, etc, etc.

The big fault of the Daemon rules as I see it is that it doesn't actually settle what happens if the Daemonic Mastery test fails, but the Possession test succeeds.

Is the daemon subjugated, then?
Are you meant to do another Daemonic Mastery test?

I don't know.

Does anyone?

Possession at least can be staved off; if you succeed/the daemon fails then it can't retry for another day. (Though that's only for one day, and the odds are not nearly so favorable as with the Daemonic Mastery test.)

Basically I would interpret that entire bit as below:

1) If player willpower is greater than the daemon.

All fine - You are stronger than it.

2) If player willpower falls but still higher than the daemon

No retest - You are still stronger than the daemon even in your mentally weakened state.

3) If player willpower starts higher but then falls below the daemons

Retest - Your mental defences are weakened and the daemon sees an opportunity.

4) If player willpower lower than the daemon and drops further at any time

Retest - Your weak defences are ripe for it to try again

Also to Fgdsfg, I would say that no the Daemon is not subjugated. The rules are indeed lacking on this but the way I understand it is that you haven't passed the mastery test so you cannot use the weapon but you have fought off it controlling you. So in essence to anyone else they would see you try to draw your demonic sword, watching the beast within writhe and seep up from the blade and into your arm seeking to control you but being beaten off. For all intent and purpose the weapon is not useable until mastered but at least it hasn't taken control of you until you remaster it.

What would be intriguing though: Slayer limb and a daemonic weapon. How do you handle a mastery test when it's actually attached to you? Nothing in its rules explicitly says you cannot use a daemonic weapon and bind it to become part of yourself. I mean I would house rule a no on it personally but the concept is quite amusing that you have to achieve mastery of your own arm.

you're missing a key detail. The binding strength reduces the WP of the demon. So if that 70 wp demon had 4 binding strength then you only need a 51 WP.

The Binding Strength isn't written as a flat penalty to WP (though perhaps it should have been?), only as a penalty on the Daemonic Mastery test and on Daemon Weapon Attributes.

Basically I would interpret that entire bit as below:

1) If player willpower is greater than the daemon.

All fine - You are stronger than it.

2) If player willpower falls but still higher than the daemon

No retest - You are still stronger than the daemon even in your mentally weakened state.

3) If player willpower starts higher but then falls below the daemons

Retest - Your mental defences are weakened and the daemon sees an opportunity.

4) If player willpower lower than the daemon and drops further at any time

Retest - Your weak defences are ripe for it to try again

Also to Fgdsfg, I would say that no the Daemon is not subjugated. The rules are indeed lacking on this but the way I understand it is that you haven't passed the mastery test so you cannot use the weapon but you have fought off it controlling you. So in essence to anyone else they would see you try to draw your demonic sword, watching the beast within writhe and seep up from the blade and into your arm seeking to control you but being beaten off. For all intent and purpose the weapon is not useable until mastered but at least it hasn't taken control of you until you remaster it.

What would be intriguing though: Slayer limb and a daemonic weapon. How do you handle a mastery test when it's actually attached to you? Nothing in its rules explicitly says you cannot use a daemonic weapon and bind it to become part of yourself. I mean I would house rule a no on it personally but the concept is quite amusing that you have to achieve mastery of your own arm.

So it sounds like your interpretation of what's going on is that in case #4, the trigger for "the wielder's WP is less than the daemon's" would not continue to fire in a loop so long as the wielder's WP stayed the same ? (My issue stemmed from the text being unclear as to whether the trigger would keep looping or not.)

Correct, the wording is a little patchy in the rule book but find a part that isn't! Yes the issue is the loop which occurs in situation 4. While your WP remains lower than the daemon, any reduction to this is an opportunity for them to retake control of you however if your Willpower is ever going up but you're still stronger then it hasn't got a chance.

If we want to get technical, it says fall below that of the daemon. This implies that it's when it falls below the daemons, not when it is already below it.

But yes, I don't see how it's meant to loop.

It's still more useful to create your own daemon weapons with nigh-indestructible bindings. Unless you're confindent enough and want moar abilities. In that case, everything else said above goes quite well. I'd say this is even obvious, unless looking for a loop.

I also would like to add that some daemons might not rebel quite often or at all, being more or less content with their lot. Such as a band of inspired and/or persuaded Nurglings to a Plaguemarine. Or maybe a Plaguebearer within a blade gifted by Grandfather to the righteous. And similar things, with the daemons having a semblance of respect for the wielder, compliance to patron's commands and content with the ruination they bring.

And if the question is how to make it more perilous to wield, I say just limit the maximum binding strength.

Another interesting concept which doesn't seem to have been mentioned in any of the tomes is about sympathy.

If you are a Nurgle aligned player with the sufficient mark of Nurgle, in theory if your weapon is bound with a beast of the Lord of Decay, then should it be slightly easier as you are a proven envoy of their dark will? The point is further compounded if the gift is a daemonic blessing from your patron god or if you ascend to become a daemon prince. Technically Daemon Prince > Lesser Daemon which means that it should be easy for you as a mighty beast of the gods will, cow the lesser pawn trapped within your item into submission.

The same is perhaps an interesting concept if you are a Tzeentch aligned trying to handle a weapon with a powerful Khornate daemon included. Arguably the test should be more difficult given that it would normally want to rip your head off.

However this is going into house rules and oversights territory...

There are several things like the name gift that give you bonuses to interactions with your factions demons. Why wouldn't that apply to mastery test? (said as a real questions not rhetorical snark)

There are several things like the name gift that give you bonuses to interactions with your factions demons. Why wouldn't that apply to mastery test? (said as a real questions not rhetorical snark)

Believe it would/should ... if the daemon is from the right alignment.

Possibly toss in a bonus based on Infamy - if you've got a huge infamy (impressive reputation), the daemon's more likely to put up with you than if you're some no-name schlub with no rep.