FCS/Ezra/Hera works better with TLT, getting TL/F on both shots where han would only modify one, and it forces arcdodgers to predict whether yu're using a 1 hard, which 3 hard, or whether you go for the 5k. (though you miss out on the 4 die primary if your too ellusive

No points for TLT when running it with dash

After skimming the replies to this post, I didn't observe a comment about what would it take to make ordnance cost effective. I have been turning over in my mind the idea that you pay once for the ordnance and then place an ordnance token on every ship with the slot for selected ordnance. For example, say you have a squad of 2 B/Ws and 1 X/W. You pay once for Proton Torpedoes and every ship with a torpedo slot can then take an ordnance token for proton torpedoes, thus the B/Ws would have two ordnance tokens each and the X/W would have one. If you have list where you buy different ordnance upgrades, you use a different token for each upgrade and then choose which ships and which slots on those ships get the appropriate token.

Other ideas I've kicked around would require a more invasive change to the rules like differentiating between ordnance target locks and main weapon / turret / cannon target locks - ordnance target locks have the capability of Long Range Scanners (Range 3 and beyond) and when using the ordnance target lock (which can be spent to fire the weapon), all focus results from the attack roll (regardless to whether or not the target lock was spent to fire the weapon) are immediately converted to hits without needing to spend an additional focus token - thus reducing the risk of a weapon having no effect - but I am not certain if that would make those upgrades too powerful or if the number of auto-converting focus results should be limited based on pilot skill. The target lock action would allow you to choose which kind of target lock to get (Weapons Engineer would allow you to do two of each type or one of each). I much prefer the idea of pay for an ordnance upgrade once and use it on any ship that can equip it since soon we will have Long Range Scanners.

Regarding pilots that cost too much, I wish FFG would simply create a pilot pack with reprints of the pilots that need fixing and let players choose which one to use. In addition those packs could contains copies of cards with corrected wording.

Thanks for your work on this MajorJuggler. I just saw this today and found this all very informative. Did you run your formula on the newer waves of ships? Is there a separate thread for that somewhere?

At what point will you have this formula advanced to the level where it includes all upgrade cards, runs all the calculations and then tells you what the perfect fleet is?

Howlrunner swarms are pretty much unbeatable for sheer jousting efficiency, if I'm able to read all those numbers correctly. And Lambda-Class Shuttles are great deals too. I'd be interested to see the numbers on U-Boats...

Did you run your formula on the newer waves of ships?

Yes, but the fundamental process for calculating several key parameters has changed, with several improvements still pending.

Is there a separate thread for that somewhere?

Nope. The next thing that I publish, if I get around to writing it in a timely manner, will be an actual academic article dealing with some of the fundamentals -- but it's broader than X-wing and applies to all point-based wargaming scenarios in general.

At what point will you have this formula advanced to the level where it includes all upgrade cards, runs all the calculations...

There are enough pilot and upgrade combinations that I have actually gotten to the point that I am seriously thinking about retooling the front-end so that I can take a ship and add any pilot ability and upgrades, and have it automatically compute all the pertinent parameters. Kind of like "voidestate squad builder" for one ship as an input, and then jousting values automatically spit out. It's at the point where it would be less time intensive to set up a general-case framework than it is to keep manually adding new code for every new pilot and upgrade combo.

If you can then figure out a way to correctly value each ship permutation's dial, then you have reached the holy grail of ship design. Spoiler alert - the method for valuing the dial in this thread and the previous incarnation is wrong, but there is an accurate and scientific way to value a dial for a given ship. The general case for valuing maneuvers requires "Big Data" from empirical playtesting done at a level of technical detail and quality that nobody in industry is doing. Plus you would need to know exactly what to do with that data.

... and then tells you what the perfect fleet is?

... I know you're joking, but it could actually be done! But looking at an entire squad using such a methodology is a problem that's more difficult by an order of magnitude. Or, more accurately, it's an entirely different problem altogether. Once you have identified a set of "good" pilots+upgrades, selecting a subset of them to form a 100 point list is a different challenge, and involves more than just individual ship efficiencies.

Howlrunner swarms are pretty much unbeatable for sheer jousting efficiency, if I'm able to read all those numbers correctly. And Lambda-Class Shuttles are great deals too. I'd be interested to see the numbers on U-Boats...

Yes, brute force (dial agnostic) jousting efficiency gets you hard numbers on how well the ship needs to execute its maneuvers in order to earn its point cost back. Unfortunately for the shuttle it's efficiency is not nearly high enough to make up for the tremendous deficiency in its ability to keep targets in arc. Hence why you don't see them in play except as Palpatine carriers.

The best wave 8 named aces basically have jousting efficiency somewhere between a naked TIE Fighter and a Howlrunner-supported TIE Fighter, but have superior positional capability, and don't need to have Howlrunner in tow. Hence why classic TIE Swarms are dead, and have been replaced by Crackshot elites supported by Howlrunner.

Bear in mind also, that's relative to a wave 5 meta where 2ATT could still hit targets. The metrics have changed, but isn't reflected in the outdated approach and numbers in this thread.

U-boats are an odd duck because they lean heavily on disposable torpedoes -- the analysis has to change a little. There's a few ways to look at it, which I won't get into here yet.

As stated above by sencho, a big thanks for all of your work, majorjuggler. Do you think that your current work will lead to a definitive method for evaluating what a upgrade card (e.g. palp, autothrusters, predator, etc.) Are actually worth?

As stated above by sencho, a big thanks for all of your work, majorjuggler. Do you think that your current work will lead to a definitive method for evaluating what a upgrade card (e.g. palp, autothrusters, predator, etc.) Are actually worth?

If you rephrase the question sightly, then sure. In a system with fixed cost for upgrade cards, which can be equipped on a variety of platforms, it is impossible to completely decouple an upgrade from its pilot. Certain upgrades will always be better on certain pilots. That said, you can see how much an upgrade is actually worth on a particular pilot with a particular loadout. I.e. if Soontir Fel already has PtL and Stealth Device, how much is it worth to add Autothrusters? I'm already doing this on the combos that I have analyzed.

Also, some upgrades like Palpatine can be used for more than just increasing the value of the platform that he's on, so to calculate his value you need to look at the entire squad.

We might need a new thread for Wave 7 and beyond. Especially when TLTs were out and even though R4 Agro/Deadeye Scout is out it would be nice to see the value calculation for reference.

Thanks, mj.

Is there a separate thread for that somewhere?

Nope. The next thing that I publish, if I get around to writing it in a timely manner, will be an actual academic article dealing with some of the fundamentals -- but it's broader than X-wing and applies to all point-based wargaming scenarios in general.

I would love to read such an article!

MJ do you have some formula for evaluating how valuable certain dials are, or is that largely guesswork?

MJ do you have some formula for evaluating how valuable certain dials are, or is that largely guesswork?

Technically neither. There is a numerical approximation in the first page of this thread, but it's fundamentally incorrect.

The correct process for determining the numerical value of a dial on a given ship loadout is to get detailed playtesting data, from which you can quantify things like:

• how often each ship gets shots (higher relative duty cycle directly affects the unit's damage output and/or durability)
• resulting action economy (directly affects the jousting numbers)
• range bins of shots taken and received

All of these factors directly affect the ship's quantifiable performance, and can be used to get numbers that, instead of reflecting straight-line "jousting" scenarios, instead reflect actual real-gameplay "dogfighting" scenarios.

Since I invented the terms "jousting value" and "jousting efficiency", I submit that the latter set of numbers should be called "dogfighting value" and "dogfighting efficiency". We'll see how long it takes before FFG starting using the term without citation, as they have done for "jousting efficiency".

You can use the same process for post-dial reposition capabilities like boost and barrel roll. It does get complicated though, since it depends on several factors like pilot skill, and even what kind of ship it is facing.