Nope, stick to Gold squadron TLT Y-wings.

3 basic, 1 BTL-4 stress-Y

2 points on PS upgrade or a droid.

Joust values are for jousting Turrets are for turreting

Not that easy as a Scum player.

Find the points for Agromechs. They make scum TLTs a whole lot better than their rebel counterparts.

Curious what the joust value for a bare y-wing is.

Curious what the joust value for a bare y-wing is.

It's in one of the first few posts of this thread.

So, the Kihraxz fighter is crap? Just asking because I'm thinking getting a pair and fly them alongside an Aggressor.

It's not wave 1 TIE Advanced levels of crap, but it's only marginally better than a stock X-wing. It would probably be OK (TLT spam notwithstanding) if it had an extra shield for the same cost. I know FFG's stated intent was to make it a cost efficient jouster, but they didn't quite hit the mark. On the other hand, you have a ship like a TLT Y-wing that isn't supposed to be a cost efficient jouster, but ends up being almost as cost efficient as the X-wing and Kihraxz anyway.

Talonbane is just bad for a PS9. He's worth 20 points in dice. His PS bid is not worth 8 points without any sort of positional capability at PS9.

Curious what the joust value for a bare y-wing is.

A bare Y-wing? It's only worth around 14.7 points of raw dice, so has an absolutely terrible efficiency of 81.5%. The base Y-wing really needs to cost absolutely no more than 16 points without the turret even to be relatively useful as a torpedo carrier.

So, the Kihraxz fighter is crap? Just asking because I'm thinking getting a pair and fly them alongside an Aggressor.

It's not wave 1 TIE Advanced levels of crap, but it's only marginally better than a stock X-wing. It would probably be OK (TLT spam notwithstanding) if it had an extra shield for the same cost. I know FFG's stated intent was to make it a cost efficient jouster, but they didn't quite hit the mark. On the other hand, you have a ship like a TLT Y-wing that isn't supposed to be a cost efficient jouster, but ends up being almost as cost efficient as the X-wing and Kihraxz anyway.

Talonbane is just bad for a PS9. He's worth 20 points in dice. His PS bid is not worth 8 points without any sort of positional capability at PS9.

Curious what the joust value for a bare y-wing is.

A bare Y-wing? It's only worth around 14.7 points of raw dice, so has an absolutely terrible efficiency of 81.5%. The base Y-wing really needs to cost absolutely no more than 16 points without the turret even to be relatively useful as a torpedo carrier.

everything is fixable if you want to.

illicit upgrade getting repositioning, torpedoes with different dice,

but the problem I see is that FFG has no intention to make life good for jousters.

they intentionally killed the jouster meta of wave 1-3 by starting the PS ace race.

so we're not seeing anything viable here for waves to come, I'm afraid.

we just changed ace-pwt meta to tlt-ace meta.

with imps having arcdodgier aces and rebels getting regen aces and stresscontrol.

all their tries to make ordnance good are so far futile.

because instead of a ton of cards they should have tweaked the mechanics.

I wish I would have never been right about the PS war... I think we first started noticing it when we were still MANUALLY tracking tournament results (thank you again MJ for taking this over and turning it up to 11!).

I really want to like the special K. I really do like them with crack and stims...with a tractorScyk buddy they can really prey on anything but aces... See previous PS War statement).

The PS war will remain in effect until we get more mid level PS ships that can prey on Aces. I don't want them to be everywhere of course but 1-2 more per faction would help out. Deathrain is a good start. How do you turn that into something without being "the new meta monster" I'm not sure. I really wish the PS scale would have been 1-5 with only things like VI "4s" and Roark and New FO ace being able to get to 5. Seems like it would have fixed the PS curve a little.

A bare Y-wing? It's only worth around 14.7 points of raw dice, so has an absolutely terrible efficiency of 81.5%. The base Y-wing really needs to cost absolutely no more than 16 points without the turret even to be relatively useful as a torpedo carrier.

Thanks for the response. Its worse than I thought but I've never really delved into mathwing. So thats straight damage output and agility vs cost not considering hull/shields?

It is both expected damage output and expected durability, so absolutely does consider hull and shields.

So just curious noticing that TLTs and other new stuff hasn't entered the page yet. Is that all contained in MW 4.0 or something similar to that?

Lots more is coming in v3.0, although still no exact ETA. Its getting closer, whenever I get the time to finish off adding some more functionality.

Lots more is coming in v3.0, although still no exact ETA. Its getting closer, whenever I get the time to finish off adding some more functionality.

*cracks whip*

Have you toyed with the VCX jousting values? I've been having a lot of luck flying them without title.

What loadouts have you been using?

I have analyzed the Ghost pilots (no title) without upgrades, and also with gunner and/or FCS. Of those combinations, the most cost effective variant is simply tossing FCS on it and calling it a day. I'm looking at:

Chopper + FCS + Hera crew + Zeb crew

... at 41 points as a reasonable ship. Jousting efficiency using legacy meta assumptions with that loadout is ~89% (absolute, not PS derated), with the added bonus of Chopper's pilot ability and the 2 crew abilities. I ran a build on vassal a couple nights ago for kicks, and talked about it briefly on NOVA that we recorded last night (should air early next week):

Death Star 2.0

Jan Ors + TLT + Nien Nunb + Crackshot

Chopper + FCS + Hera crew + Zeb crew

Gold + TLT + R3-A2 + BTL-A4

I'm still convinced that Jan is still pretty overcosted, so I don't necessarily think that this is truly a competitive squad. However, getting your opponent to ram into you, get a stress, and then attacking it with 6 dice with target lock and focus, is a pretty devastating combo when you can pull it off. In the quick test game I ran, IG88-B was dead after the 2nd firing round, at something like -3 hull.

I think Hera crew should be auto include for 1 point on all ghosts. You need to maintain arc to shoot, and the ship has no other special capabilities, like say IG88-B.

For what it's worth, I just recently calculated IG88-B jousting values using legacy meta assumptions; IG88+HLC+FCS+AT came out at ~89%. But that's at PS6 with an EPT, the boost action, and sloop. So IG88-B looks strictly superior to the ghost. You can put FCS + Gunner on the Ghost to make it functionally more similar to IG88B, but its an expensive 5 points for diminishing returns on a 4 attack ship, and slightly lowers the efficiency. For example:

Chopper + FCS + Hera crew + Zeb crew + Gunner crew = 46 points, with an efficiency of around ~86%. So slightly lower with gunner than without, although those numbers will change slightly when I update for a wave 7/8 meta, and besides that the risk mitigation could be worth the cost.

Nope, stick to Gold squadron TLT Y-wings.

3 basic, 1 BTL-4 stress-Y

2 points on PS upgrade or a droid.

Joust values are for jousting Turrets are for turreting

Not that easy as a Scum player.

nothing is easy as S&V player in this cold miserable Rebel-biased world when your ships are still nostalgic about times 4 waves ago.

wave 7. everybody spams TLT, Pushes ace Limits...

S&V: Hey, guys, want to joust?

*sounds of horrible horrible death

wave 8

S&V: Hey, guys, see my new B-wing and PWT?

*sounds of horrible horrible death

So far I've won 8 out of the 9 games I've played on vassal testing said scum b-wing. Haven't played against a lot of TLTs yet, but I've done quite well agianst just about everything else I've played against.

I think Hera crew should be auto include for 1 point on all ghosts. You need to maintain arc to shoot, and the ship has no other special capabilities, like say IG88-B.

I might amend that to ghosts without the title. When you have a Phantom docked for the rear arc and a turret equipped, it's a lot easier to get shots. I'm running chopper with zeb and dash crew + autoblaster and accuracy corrector and have only lost 1 game so far. I've definitely never felt the need for hera with that setup.

Edit: Probably also helps taht I have Kanan crew on sabine in the shuttle flying alongside him, so I can still do white maneuvers and clear stress if I absolutely need to, but even that has only happened rarely, mostly save kanan for sabine to use herself.

The Ghost title is interesting from a balance perspective. The math on that is different than the YV-666 Hounds Tooth / Nashta Pup title, since the docked Phantom increases the Ghost's attack while it is docked.

What are your thoughts on Crackshot and Glitterstim? Does putting both on a Black Sun Ace make a worthwhile, if not competitive, Kihraxz build? I won't ask for numbers yet (I'll wait for 3.0) but I would like to hear your 2 cents.

I'll fully evaluate Crackshot along with Missiles and Torpedoes (consumables) when I get around to it. The PS5 Kihraxz costs way too much.

Glitterstim is hard to directly model, as it is both a consumable and an offensive + defensive effect.

I'll fully evaluate Crackshot along with Missiles and Torpedoes (consumables) when I get around to it. The PS5 Kihraxz costs way too much.

Glitterstim is hard to directly model, as it is both a consumable and an offensive + defensive effect.

*cough* but MJ will be doing thorough investigation of the spice and it's affects. I have also volunteered in this experiment for purely scientific reasons.

eh, Kihraz never was a super-efficient jouster,

but at least we DO have a EPT-generics with over-TLT-platform-PS

for Epic games Kih isn't that awful actually...

Chopper + FCS + Hera crew + Zeb crew + Gunner crew = 46 points, with an efficiency of around ~86%. So slightly lower with gunner than without, although those numbers will change slightly when I update for a wave 7/8 meta, and besides that the risk mitigation could be worth the cost.

Only 2 crew slots on the Ghost so thats not even possible. I think Ghosts are intriguing, they have lots of upgrade slots so they're quite the toolkit. But, as you said, they also get expensive fast and 0 agility is quite scary once you start loading up on points.

Btw, is anyone taking bets on what will happen first: MathWing 3.0 released or Wave8 in stores?

Chopper + FCS + Hera crew + Zeb crew + Gunner crew = 46 points, with an efficiency of around ~86%. So slightly lower with gunner than without, although those numbers will change slightly when I update for a wave 7/8 meta, and besides that the risk mitigation could be worth the cost.

Only 2 crew slots on the Ghost so thats not even possible. I think Ghosts are intriguing, they have lots of upgrade slots so they're quite the toolkit. But, as you said, they also get expensive fast and 0 agility is quite scary once you start loading up on points.

Btw, is anyone taking bets on what will happen first: MathWing 3.0 released or Wave8 in stores?

So far my 49 point ghost (69 counting the docked phantom) has been entirely worth the points in playtesting on vassal.

Only 2 crew slots on the Ghost so thats not even possible. I think Ghosts are intriguing, they have lots of upgrade slots so they're quite the toolkit. But, as you said, they also get expensive fast and 0 agility is quite scary once you start loading up on points.

Derp, right, only 2 crew slots. No wonder I didn't math out that option initially.

Clearly, you need to get together with the Shapeways people and build your own sci-fi space combat game.

Btw, is anyone taking bets on what will happen first: MathWing 3.0 released or Wave8 in stores?

I would put my money on wave 8.

I might still end up being a giant troll and not releasing it. It has advanced to the point that from an architectural and game design standpoint, balancing X-wing is essentially a solved problem. That's useful information, which I may not want to give away for free. Because reasons.

I sure hope you reconsider, this community is very grateful for work (even if FFG doesnt seem to appreciate it too much). As long as you dont release the metholody there shouldnt be any harm in posting the results, or am i missing something? I'm quite sure most people are more interested in the results than in the 'secret sauce'.

Anyway, thanks!