This discussion started in another thread. But I decided to make a thread of its own in order not to ruin that debate.

http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=70&efcid=3&efidt=141088

The fluff says its about maintaining starships and tittans and how to use it. Now if we will try to apply this to the rules I am not sure what defines techpriest. if it only techpriest who are alowed to have some secrets about technologi what is it then.

Now techuse is commen lore for hives and some classes has t. So it cannot be this skill although some in the other debate mentioned that. Personally I would say trade technomate as it is maintaining machines aka waiting for them to break and then fixing them. Commen lore tech is a commen lore and other classes has it also. There is offcause all the implants but that alone does not make them unreplaceble.

So what is it which gives them the final touch ? Is it just a combination of all their skills talents and implants ?

To be perfectly honest- the main thing that defines the Mechanicus is not something that can necessarily be defined in rules. Rules-wise, everything they do can be done by someone else, but the thing that is worth remembering is that those other people won't be able to do it as well- they don't have the infratructure or technology that the tech-priests have. The Tech-priests of Mars managed to get a virtual monopoly on advanced tech towards the end of the Unification, start of the Great Crusade, and some nifty diplomacy let them keep it (as well as their legal autonomy- the AM is technically not part of the Imperium of Man, but its' ally), and as a result, ten thousand years down the line, they still have a near monopoly on advanced tech, and have (for the most part) managed to reduced anyone else's knowledge on how it works to 'magic box does what it does if the spirit inside is kept happy', and maintenance and usage reduced to rote.

Ruleswise, they could be replaced, no problem, but anyone who wants to replace them has got probably between 500-7000 years of catch-up to do, on top of trying to overturn a tradition almost ten millennia old, with the (literal) force of law behind it.

And that's without the machiavellian conspiracies some people (such as Kage2020, and to a lesser degree, myself) impute to the Mechanicum, positing wheels within wheels, plots within plots, to keep real knowledge and power out of the hands of everyone but a chosen few at the top of the Martian hierarchy...

Why do you even want to find some ability or knowledge exclusive to Techpriests? There is none. Neither is there for Clerics.

Techpriests are ultimately defined by their membership of the Adeptus Mechanicus, a powerful organization of its own wielding the authority over what is techheresy while doing their own research into all kinds of technology thus having a lot of knowledge about it and access to a few gadgets.

The Techpriest *career* is special mostly for the implants and talents based on them. It gets the tech-related skills and knowledge earlier than others because a) they are trained in the proper rituals and b) when a Techpriest is present people (read other careers) usually leave the tech stuff to them so that they can't do anything wrong in the eyes of the Techpriest. This includes piloting starships and all that.

Speaking of acolyte groups and campaigns, Techpriests are not irreplaceable. Neither is any other career. And that's a good thing. They are just another major power group (of many interdependent power groups inside the Imperium, all with their own interests) in your party and they can do some stuff better than others unless you find someone who does it almost as well with a different background - like a Reclaimator.

There's no need to make the Techpriest career any more special.

Chester my concern come from the other thread. And I do nto nessesarely wnat to make them more exclusive or special it is hypertetic question in order to understand th rules and the world better.

But yes as Alasseo and you said it the organisation taht makes it special, but I jsut was not quite sure.

Perhaps the higher end secrets of high-tech wizardry not only requires Tech-Use but also Common Lore (Machine Cult) to know and understand the rites of awakening the machine spirit or how to construct a proper cogitator-temple that would call forth the proper machine spirit. Besides the Adept and Cleric, they are the only ones who get such a skill in their advancement trees and are the only ones who can take it to +20.

Also, what makes then unique is, apparently, they are the only ones who still understand the fine arts and ways of the Armour as they are the only career which gets Trade (Armourer). They are also, apparently, the only ones who still know the proper ways in which to extract ores and minerals from the earth ( Trade [minor]... which begs the question of what the heck those folks on Sepheris Secondus are doing...) as well as the only ones who can decorate weapons, armour, cogitators, and what not with neat little scrolls (Trade [scrimshaw] though not even they can do this well as no one gets that trade at +10 or +20). They are the only ones who can work with stone (trade [mason]) and the only ones who can still shape metal (Trade [smith]). Aside from the psyker, they are the only ones who can maintain machines (Trade [technomat]) as well as design massive engines, large cities, star ships, and tanks (Trade [wright]). Perhaps in those trade skills is where the know-how and secret knowledges lie?

I suspect part of the answer is to acknowledge that there is a difference between the question 'What monopoly or near monopoly of knowledge or ability forms the basis for the power of the Mechanicus within the 41st millennium?' and the question 'What can a Tech Priest character in DH do that no-one else can?'. The answer to the first is in the iron grip that the Mechanicus keep on the knowledge of technology in the 41st Millennium. This is not so apparent in game mechanics terms because few characters are ever going to be in a position to try and do the stuff the Mechanicus really controls (building big, powerful things like spaceships, titans, hives, advanced cogitators; rewriting liturgies to make it easier to do stuff; developing new technology; investigating archeotech and xenos tech), and because much of the Mechanicus control is opaque to game mechanics. The fact is that use of technology is a fully-fledged religious practice in the 41st millennium and the Mechanicus are its priesthood. Every time a character uses tech (and every time they employ Common Lore (Tech)) they will be following Mechanicus liturgies. They wrote the manuals, they decided how much to let people know, and in what form to let them have the knowledge. So when it takes seconds to reload a gun (whilst reciting the appropriate prayers so as not to offend the machine spirit) and twenty minutes to perform the correct ritual to change the battery on a chrono (including reciting ten minutes worth of invocation to various spirits and burning some expensive incense - bought from your local Mechanicus vendor), that's because the Mechanicus chose to make it that way. That's their power, felt every second of every day in every advanced culture in the Imperium. But it makes no impact on game mechanics, so we ignore it most of the time. It's a lot easier to say 'I'll use my auspex to scan for life signs' than to have to go through the whole Mechanicus liturgy required to do that.

As far as the second question goes, yes, for all intents and purposes (various implants and such aside) there is very little a Tech priest character can do that another character cannot. Their membership of the Mechanicus gives them a role in an important power group within the Imperium, but then several other characters have membership of important power groups, and unless your game is focused that way there's no reason why the Mechanicus will be more significant than the Ecclesiarchy or the Arbites for example. Any character with Common Lore (tech) can in game terms take a crack at doing anything with technology that a Techpriest can, and may succeed. However, this is because almost all the tech being used in the game will be commonplace. In our terms it's like asking what a rocket scientist can do that my mate Dave the electrician can't do when both of them seem able to change a fuse equally well and at a pinch they can both rewire a house. The game hardly ever takes you to the areas where you'd see the things the Mechanicus have a real monopoly on, so the rules don't need to reflect the difference. Now if you took a hive scum with some tech expertise and a techpriest to an experimental lab on a forge world you'd probably have to start writing some house rules to reflect the difference, because the hive scum probably wouldn't even recognise the tools in the lab, because they're a generation beyond anything he's ever encountered.

Well said RevMark. Sometimes a focus on rules can blind people to the realities of the universe they are playing in.

In my game sometimes a Techpriest can make a Tech Use test where others can not even if they have the skill, why, well they dont have the first clue what to do even if they have the Tech Use skill.

Kaihlik

This might be useful:

http://www.principiainfecta.com/images/technology_of_the_imperium.png

@ Graver

There can be a difference in the term Armorer, and that of an Armorsmith or Weaponsmith. An armorer is proficient in the production and maintenance of both weapon and armor, where as the armorsmith or weaponsmith is generally more specialized in their respective fields.

Or; to quote a source, "an 'armorer' or 'armourer" can refer to two roles. Traditionally it referred to a smith who specialized in manufacturing and repairing metal armor. The word has also come to designate a member of a military or police force who maintains and repairs small arms and weapon systems, with some duties resembling those of a civilian gunsmith." Just like you will find more than armor in an armory.

-=Brother Praetus=-