Ok first i appologize for my noobness and posting from my smartphone.

Being that dare devil is a white hard turn and reads "...THEN, receive one stress"...and that ptl inturupts actions...can you ptl in the midst of the daredevil action...then does jakes pilot ability also inturupt in the same way?

I ask this (ignore the viability of why you would actually use this pilot combo/waste pts etc...its for casual play) because i am trying to understand how stress and ptl are applied and in what order...

Once you declare daredevil as an action and do your maneuver... can you trigger ptl before applying stress? And if so when you use ptl to focus can you do jakes boost/barrel roll before adding ptl stress? The errata for the ptl card using expert handleing as an example sure makes it sound like this is legal.

So jake could end up essentially doing a 0 k-turn (hard 1 turn - daredevil for another hard 1 turn - ptl to focus- barrel roll- add stress) and end with 2 stress and a focus...seems fair to me.

Thoughts?

Once you declare daredevil as an action and do your maneuver... can you trigger ptl before applying stress?

Yes you can. in fact you can use a number of "after an action" type effects like PtL or Experimental Interface abilities. Because you get to decide the order things happen in, if you have more then one thing that happens at the same time.

You gain a stress and can take a free action "after performing X" so you get to decide the order, that lets you take the free action before getting the stress.

With the VT-49 Dauntless Title, PtL and Experimental interface you could take 4 actions a turn, then end up with 3 stress.

In the case of Daredevil, I'd say no. Getting a stress is part of the daredevil action. So after you perfomre it (this is where tpl triggers) you allready have a stres.

There is a difference with actions that grant other actions, such as Expert Handling. Part of EH is to "perform a barel roll action". After the BR-action you could trigger ptl while still in the resolution of the EH-action. Hence get an extra action in befor the EH gives you stress. Daredevil doesn't grant an extra action in the midle of it that can trigger ptl befor the stress it gives.

... I swear it all soundes so clear in my head, but reding it now I'm not sure any one can understand what I'm saying

... I swear it all soundes so clear in my head, but reding it now I'm not sure any one can understand what I'm saying

I get what you're saying. I'm not sure if I agree. I think I do, because Daredevil isn't the same type of action as others. But it's lunch time so I need to go do that before I can think about this.

It is a misunderstanding to think that PtL lets you interrupt actions, it doesn't. It triggers after actions, not during them.

The think you're probably confused about is Expert Handling. While using Expert Handling, it allows you to do a Barrel Roll action, which you can trigger PtL after, essentially interrupting the Expert Handling action. But Push the Limit in itself, has no action-interrupting abilities.

Since Daredevil is just one action, that does not trigger any other actions, you can't all of a sudden stop doing the Daredevil action to perform Push the Limit. Push the Limit triggers after you've done the maneuver, taken the stress, and potentially rolled for damage.

It triggers after actions, not during them.

Well I suppose it could be a matter of semantics. PtL + Say Expert Handling, does in a way let you interrupt an Action namely you get to insert the PtL action in the middle of the Expert Handling Action. You haven't completed the Expert Handling action until you get the stress.

Since Daredevil is just one action, that does not trigger any other actions, you can't all of a sudden stop doing the Daredevil action to perform Push the Limit.

I agree, I didn't even really look at the card when I replied... But Daredevil doesn't allow you to make a Boost Action, it lets you make a maneuver, so there's no action in the Daredevil Action to trigger PtL, like there is with say Expert Handling.

It triggers after actions, not during them.

Well I suppose it could be a matter of semantics. PtL + Say Expert Handling, does in a way let you interrupt an Action namely you get to insert the PtL action in the middle of the Expert Handling Action. You haven't completed the Expert Handling action until you get the stress.

Since Daredevil is just one action, that does not trigger any other actions, you can't all of a sudden stop doing the Daredevil action to perform Push the Limit.

I agree, I didn't even really look at the card when I replied... But Daredevil doesn't allow you to make a Boost Action, it lets you make a maneuver, so there's no action in the Daredevil Action to trigger PtL, like there is with say Expert Handling.

This is correct.

PtL can trigger off of any action, even one which results from another ability. But Daredevil doesn't generate an action - it generates a maneuver. So there's no hook for PtL to trigger on.

By contrast, anything that triggers off a maneuver would trigger from Daredevil before you got the stress. So you could use Daredevil and then trigger Inertial Dampeners to make the turn a stationary, then get two stress (one from Daredevil and one from the Dampeners). I don't know why you would, but if you did, it would work

Ok cool that all makes sense.

But not to beat a dead tauntaun here...does the fact that dare devil reads "Action: exicute maneuver..." wouldnt that make it an action first and foremost? Which inturn lets you use ptl? Albiet the card for ptl does say AFTER so one would have to complete said daredevil fully...right?

right?

Yeah...

If you use Push the Limits or Experimental Interface, the trigger for them is After an Action, you can then pair them up with things like Expert Handling, the Dauntless title, Advanced Cloaking Device, or the pilot ability on guys like Turr Phennir, or Jake Farrell. Because all those things allow you to perform an Action.

For the ones that give you a stress, you get the stress After the Action which is the same trigger as PtL or EI. Since you get to decide the order things happen in, when they trigger off the same event, you can decide to trigger PtL before you you get the stress.

The problem as you say with Daredevil is that it doesn't let you do a Boost Action, it just lets you perform a maneuver, and then gain a stress, then you have the After an Action trigger, but you now have a stress and can't perform any action. If Daredevil said "preform a boost action" it would work.

You can actually trigger PtL from the Daredevil action. The key problem is that you'll be stressed from Daredevil, so wouldn't be able to take the second action from PtL (or Experimental Interface).

There are exceptions to that - Tycho is the main one, he could Daredevil and then follow that with a Boost, since he doesn't care about the stress. Porkins with Daredevil, Experimental Interface, and an astromech action could do it too, although that's probably a recipe for suicide. On the Imperial side, Yorr pulling the stress from a ship with Daredevil and a crew action would let it work.

The important thing is to understand the timing of the effects - Daredevil has to complete fully, giving a stress, which will stop any further actions unless you can ignore or remove it before PtL/EI triggers.

Awesome thanks everyone. While im sad i wont be able to deal with my buddies pesky arc dodgers in the cheeky way i wanted to...im sure he'll happy about it haha.

Well, you can always reverse it by using Experimental Interface and Daredevil:

- Perform maneuver

- Perform basic action (focus, boost, etc)

- Use Experimental Interface to trigger Daredevil

- Perform Daredevil, including gaining stress from Daredevil

- Gain stress from Experimental Interface

You'll end up with two stress, but it would work.

Related thought.

Can I Daredevil to bump, and then before taking the stress "after performing a manouvre that causes you to overlap another ship" use Dauntless title to perform a target lock, then take the stress from Dauntless and then the stress from Daredevil?

Related thought.

I'd say yes for the same reason it works for PtL or EI. In this case the trigger is "a maneuver that overlaps."

Agree with Vanor, looks fine to me.

So did I, but thought I'd clarify and get a consensus before trailling it at a tourney.

Page 14 of FAQ

"Push the Limit

Free actions, such as a free action granted from Squad Leader, can trigger Push the Limit. This can result in an action interrupting another effect, causing that effect to finish resolving later. For example, if a ship performs a free barrel roll action granted by Expert Handling, it could use that action as a trigger for Push the Limit. After Push the Limit resolves, Expert Handling finishes resolving. "

So Push the Limit can be used with Daredevil (substitute for Expert Handling) and because PTL and the free action (Jake focusing and getting a free barrell roll or boost) resolves first before Daredevil resolves. SO you get 2 stresses and a focus with Jake.

Would like to try that. But getting 2 stresses for a short quasi k-turn is a bit much.

You can actually trigger PtL from the Daredevil action. The key problem is that you'll be stressed from Daredevil, so wouldn't be able to take the second action from PtL (or Experimental Interface).

I don't see how this can be right. Given the rulings on EI and PtL, why is Daredevil different? Your action is to perform a white turn manoeuvre, you can PtL from that, then at the end you get two stress. That's exactly how the PtL/EI combo has been ruled to work, and how Jake Farrell with PtL or EI works. What is your reasoning as to why Daredevil would give you a stress before you PtL? If it is because it is a red manoeuvre, remember that the errata'd Daredevil is actually a white manoeuvre.

I don't see how this can be right. Given the rulings on EI and PtL, why is Daredevil different? Your action is to perform a white turn manoeuvre, you can PtL from that, then at the end you get two stress. That's exactly how the PtL/EI combo has been ruled to work, and how Jake Farrell with PtL or EI works. What is your reasoning as to why Daredevil would give you a stress before you PtL? If it is because it is a red manoeuvre, remember that the errata'd Daredevil is actually a white manoeuvre.

It's because the internal part of Daredevil is a maneuver, not an action, so it's not a valid trigger for PtL. You action is not actually to perform a white turn - your action is to perform a white turn, gain a stress, roll attack dice, and suffer damage, as appropriate. The Daredevil action is the whole thing.

When you have something like Leebo, you actually have two actions - Leebo himself, and the boost action he grants. PtL can trigger from either of those, and will resolve completely before you move to the part that's after the action.

But Daredevil only has one action - the entirety of Daredevil. You can't trigger PtL on the maneuver mid-process the way tou can with something (like EI or PtL itself) that gives an action.

I don't see how this can be right. Given the rulings on EI and PtL, why is Daredevil different? Your action is to perform a white turn manoeuvre, you can PtL from that, then at the end you get two stress. That's exactly how the PtL/EI combo has been ruled to work, and how Jake Farrell with PtL or EI works. What is your reasoning as to why Daredevil would give you a stress before you PtL? If it is because it is a red manoeuvre, remember that the errata'd Daredevil is actually a white manoeuvre.

It's because the internal part of Daredevil is a maneuver, not an action, so it's not a valid trigger for PtL. You action is not actually to perform a white turn - your action is to perform a white turn, gain a stress, roll attack dice, and suffer damage, as appropriate. The Daredevil action is the whole thing.

When you have something like Leebo, you actually have two actions - Leebo himself, and the boost action he grants. PtL can trigger from either of those, and will resolve completely before you move to the part that's after the action.

But Daredevil only has one action - the entirety of Daredevil. You can't trigger PtL on the maneuver mid-process the way tou can with something (like EI or PtL itself) that gives an action.

Ah ok, I can see what I missed first up- the stress is included in the "action" paragraph; I assumed it was in the second paragraph and so not (at least imo) part of the actual action. I would dispute whether the roll for damage is part of the action (because it is in a separate paragraph) but it's irrelevant, as the stress is definitely included as part of the action. Which kind of sucks, and is probably unintentional, but you are right that that is what it says.

Ah ok, I can see what I missed first up- the stress is included in the "action" paragraph; I assumed it was in the second paragraph and so not (at least imo) part of the actual action. I would dispute whether the roll for damage is part of the action (because it is in a separate paragraph) but it's irrelevant, as the stress is definitely included as part of the action. Which kind of sucks, and is probably unintentional, but you are right that that is what it says.

The entire card ability is part of the action. What else would it be? You can't voluntarily do it without triggering the action. It's not an optional part, you can never ignore part of it. So if you can't use it except by taking the action, and it must always be completed when you do, how could it be anything but part of the action?

I assumed it was in the second paragraph and so not (at least imo) part of the actual action.

As Buhallin points out all the text is the action.

With PtL/EI you don't get to interrupt an action because of what paragraph it's on. You get to do that because of what triggers PtL/EI.

Those are triggered after an action and many cards like Expert Handling let you perform an action within the action. The Action Expert Handling, has a sub-action, namely the barrel roll, when you complete the barrel roll Sub-Action you have a trigger for both PtL and the stress from Expert Handling. Since you get to decide what order to do those two things in, you can trigger PtL before you get the stress.

Furthermore, you still have to come back from whatever you used PtL for and pick up the stress from PtL, and then come back to Expert Handling and pick up the stress from that. You must ensure that each time you trigger a Sub-Action, you complete it and the Action that triggered it in the first place.

You can't pick and choose which bits are going to apply and which bits aren't. Any card that you decide to play is played in it's entirety.

Furthermore, you still have to come back from whatever you used PtL for and pick up the stress from PtL, and then come back to Expert Handling and pick up the stress from that. You must ensure that each time you trigger a Sub-Action, you complete it and the Action that triggered it in the first place.

You can't pick and choose which bits are going to apply and which bits aren't. Any card that you decide to play is played in it's entirety.

Obviously, the card applies in its entirety. The way the cards are formatted though has the "action" header as part of the first paragraph. Although by using that action you need to do everything on the card, when you have to determine what exactly is defined as the "action" on the card is problematic- as written, the action is only the first paragraph. FFG could rule otherwise but that isn't how the card is written. There is no reason that the second paragraph should be considered part of the action- it's an additional effect that happens because you performed the action. For the action to be the entire card, the action header shouldn't be part of the first paragraph.

Compare to say, Expert Handling. The action is to perform a free barrel roll action, and to receive a stress if you don't have the barrel roll icon. Removing a target lock happens after that as an additional effect but isn't the action.

as written, the action is only the first paragraph. FFG could rule otherwise but that isn't how the card is written. There is no reason that the second paragraph should be considered part of the action- it's an additional effect that happens because you performed the action. For the action to be the entire card, the action header shouldn't be part of the first paragraph.

Is there any reason to think the separate paragraph isn't part of the action? The rules refer to "card abilities" having the action header. Every indication, and I believe every ruling, treats it as a singular element, and not somehow separate from the action.

I can understand the idea that the paragraph break might mean something, but are there any actual rules/rulings to back up that reading?