This discussion relates to LCG only - I am not familiar with the current open meta.

Bara vs Targ

Turn 1:
Bara Plays Herald of the Stag, puts The Fox's Teeth on top of his deck.

Turn 2:
Bara reveals Fury of the Stag plot, wins initiative, chooses to go first

Bara plays Fox's Teeth

The Fox's Teeth attacks in the first challenge, cannot be blocked since there are no knelt characters

Bara uses plot text tp to take control of Targ's strongest character

Note that the combo does not depend on The Fox's Teeth. Bara can easily set up an unblockable power challenge with Stannis or one of the stealth weenies (Edric or Bastard of Robert) among other things.

After the strongest Targ character switched sides it was all down hill.

Question - have others noticed this matchup, and what can Targ do to counter? Targ can always try a reset with Valar, but it is not likely to gain an advantage since Targ does not have especially strong saves. Any other ideas?

Fox's Teeth, Stannis and stealthy bastards (or other power weenies) should be easily taken care of with burn (highest STR of any of these is 3)? Forever burning, flame kissed, poisoned chalice (and the new dragon skull thingy) should work in a suitable combination, or possibly together with Drogon's ablity.

Additionally drunken allegations should be a plot which would allow you to get a blocker for fox's teeth, or you could use dragon attack for the same effect and additionally burn somebody (propably better). And further, this could be combined with a dragon bite for increased nastiness. Oh, and dragons are good defenders against stealthed power challenges (cannot be stealthed) together with dragon bite.

Propably there's a host of other solutions, but those just came to mind quickly. Oh, and if you don't get anything that can stop this (by pure dumb bad luck), just refrain from playing anything too useful for him to steal (and concentrate on ambushing with something).

Someone more experienced will propably come up with better solutions, but here's a start.

Long answer, is pretty much what WWDrakey covered. There are options to hopefully limit Bara's success if you're lucky when they flip Fury.

Short answer though, is that Bara pretty much has a huge one up on Targ with that plot. Losing Dany or Rhaegar or a Dragon can pretty much ruin your game.

There are minor counters, but they are pretty much not effective. Valar is probably the best - at least Targ can recurse a few charatcers with To Be a Dragon.

but that Plot pretty much owns Targ and you have to accept it. Its a bad matchup and a classic example of how devastating perma steal is. Its one reason i am reluctant to play targ competitively. Probably the biggest.

Darkley's response is very dependent on seeing the right cards at the right time, and bara doesn't need the right cards at the right time to win a power challenge the turn of its choosing.

Also, I find it better to not play my plot 1st two turns as targ is usually waiting for me to play and is being conservative with their characters. I find the threat of the steal is much better game control then the steal (wait for it, wait for it, ah crap it didn't come yet, now what am i going to do).

Add Stormland scavengers to the bara hates targ PITA also. Play that card and you get a free intrigue challenge against targ as its played (great early on when Targ is probably holding its good chars while waiting for fury) and up to 3 times...plus they are undercosted with a power icon....

I've said it before, I will not play targ in a competative environment becuase of how easily bara can dominate them (at least make a game miserable for them).

Sometimes winning games has nothing to do with the cards themselves and everything to do with how you play them.

In the scenario listed above, the Targ player has an advantage not yet mentioned by anyone. The Bara player has completely telegraphed plot revelation. If you use that Herald first turn on a Fox's Teeth, you've pretty much told me what your going to do. Its similar to me playing an "Any Phase" card from hand prior to revealing the first plot of the game. Do you know what I'm going to do? You should.

So now that I know what you're going to play, I can plan accordingly. I may not be able to stop you from what your doing, but I can minimize the damage (RJM did mention limiting the damage). I hold onto my uber characters for a turn, I choose to marshall locations and/or bouncing characters (Titan's Bastard, Queen's Knight, Disgruntled Mercenary), I try to coral you into doing what I think will cause me the least damage. Then, after you play your Fury Plot 2nd turn, and assuming you go first and steal my best character on the table, well, I don't have to worry about that plot for 6 more rounds at least.

So while I agree that stealing a character is one of the most powerful single effects in the game, I think it is an exceptional overreaction to claim that Targ should not be played in a competitive venue simply because of this one effect.

So... shadows and Targ = awesome. Just spend that marshalling developing your shadows area, and locations. And play blockade during thier fury.

you both are assuming that that fury is coming 1st or second turn. Again like I mentioned the best use of the fury is to make your opponent play slow while they wait for it and wait for it and then if they speed up pop it out.

Problem is you have to play it eventually... and Targs burn allows them to put lesser characters on the table and still when challenges, and a Warlock's Servitors and Drogon, Forever Burning, or Dragon Attack stops Fox's Teeth... not that Bara doesn't have ways around this also, but the point is that this little combo while powerful is far from a guaranteed win even in Joust, and in Melee it is even less likely to be pulled of reliably. There is a very real chance that I would attempt to stop that attack if I supported the Targ player of forced them to redirect if I had the Crown Regent title... especially if I could use that to get a concession from the Targ player. If the Targ player has the Crown Regent title after the plot is flipped the whole combo becomes even more risky.

It is a great plot and fuels a lot of Targ hate, but it is not reason enough in my book to not play Targ... especially since outside of this combo Bara has little in the way of stopping Targ if they can control the rush and Targ is a very good match up against Stark, Greyjoy, Martell, and fair against Lannister... afterall Joust is all about what deck will get the most wins and therefor most likely to make it to top 8 and then beat their opponents there. This combo is useless against everyone else, and Lannisters kneel and Starks direct kill are great answers to most of what Bara does (minus Vigilant).

Figuring the spread of Houses and their builds is incredibly important to being able to place well in a tournament. Being able to wreck a specific House if things go right is nice... but what about the other five Houses and the different deck types you are likely to see? I'll take a Targe deck that may lose to a Bara/Fury/Teeth but beat everyone else. If I make it to the final round and the Bara doesn't my loss to it is meaningless.

Now in a purely social setting where I will be facing the same Bara player and deck every week, then I absolutely understand and even agree with the statement. This is the type of thing that usually has me creating a deck that destroys the other deck and I just play it until they have to alter their deck enough to beat mine (which often times lowers the efficiancy aginst my original deck) or they move on to another deck or House. This is what meta-building is all about.

a solid bara deck can at least tread water with a solid targ deck (your answer by the way is 3+ cards, and bara doesn't need fox's teeth to win a power challenge anyway so 3 cards to kill one character is an okay trade for me). Fury of the stag gives it a great advantage to not only hold over targ's head but to play. I'm not hurting myself by having a 5 7 1 plot in my deck against non targ deck and a stormlands scavanger or 2 or 3 wouldn ;t kill me if i play thme right against non targ or bara players.

I get that people like to think that their deck can overcome one card...but to stop a plot is very hard (heck i might just use it the turn i don't want the targ player to attack me in pow) and if you don't....**** are you at a huge disadvantage, one that i wouldn't risk.

Lars said:

My answer is two cards, Warlock Servitor (immune to character abilities) and anything that raises their STR or lowering the Fox's Teeth. Which matches your investment.

You don't like the risk, I can understand that, but for me the risk to reward ratio is worth it right now. Of course my first love to Thrones is Martell followed closely by Greyjoy so I don't often play Targ in tournaments, but I'm really enjoying my current Targ deck, and when it performs moderately well I have little fear of the Fury plot. Then again, we know your Bara deck is different than the ones I face off against regularly so I'm not going to say that my deck or win record is necessarily a more correct measure than you and yours, but until we square off I'll stick with my belief that it is a pain in the ass but not a deal breaker.

Lars is 100% correct. i would be thrilled to see a Targ hosue card against me at a oturnament these days. yes - they ahve a good solid character base, and soem nice recursion and control - but Baratheon OWNS htis matchup.

You really are missing his point: you hold the Fury Plot until they paly soemhting worth stealing - and while he is playing Carrion birds and Brown ben and what not - the Bara player is rushing to 15 , balls to the wall. Early reset? Great =- when you re-seed, i still have the Fury plot in my hip pocket to tkae your best character.

Unless I ahev godawful luck, Targ decks are my path to Top eigth while playing Baratheon.

Stag Lord said:

The longer you hold your Fury plot though, the longer you have to wait to play your To Be A Stag. I rarely see a Stark/Targ/Greyjoy/Bara player wait beyond round 3 to play their Fury plot. The "To Be A XXX" cycle for those four houses is just to strong to leave it incapacitated in your hand.

Stag, give me a call when you have time to play a game over the phone. I have two very different Targ decks. I've only lost once to Bara around here, so I need you to give me an education.

Dobbler said:

In LCG i don't use TBAStag much. I agree w/ the other two, but baras is not as good in LCG, the lower STR means i'd only be returning a weenie most of the time (especially early in the game) and i have other discard pile recursion. Most of my bara decks this event is replaced with at the minimum distinct mastery and more recently reins events. So waiting for fury for me is not a loss.

Also, before Ktom decreed otherwise, we did not think you could play TBAS without a valid character in the discard pile. Ktom's ruling makes it a little more versatile, but Distinct mastery is still the most versatile option for standing (or 3x bannermen) via an event as most of the chars i'd want to stand have crests anyway.

I don't mind holding the TBaS event agaisnt Targ. Tehya ren't going to be discarding my guys anyway. I'd rtaher steal a dragon in a big spot anyday - or keep those dragons sitting in your hand.

Wait... you guys don't play with both valar and wildfire and westeros bleeds? I'd have thought that given the environment everyone would be playing mass card draw mass reset.

bloodycelt said:

What I've seen in NYC has been mostly just one reset plot in plot decks and absolutely no Westeros Bleeds. Scrounging up four influence is daunting in LCG.

LetsGoRed said:

This is why Gencon (and any other large scale tournament) is such a wonderful event! Metas tend develop play patterns. Even new players to metas tend to follow previous established patterns by their own meta. Getting people together from other metas really shakes up playstyles and patterns. I'm surprised when someone says there is absolutely no Westeros Bleeds due to lack of influence in their meta. My Targ deck regularly bounces Queen's Knights into play, and Bleeds is only one more influence. Between 3x Crossroads, 3x Fiefdoms, 3x Seas, 2x Drogo's Tent, and 3x Support of the Kingdom, I generally seem to have the influence I need.

In our meta, Bara has definitely NOT owned Targ, and while Lannister is strong, Targ and Stark run about even with it. I'm excited to see the impact Greyjoy makes when the expansion is released.

Dobbler said:

I run a very similar Targ deck, full of Westeros Bleeds and Valar. Very annoying to play against. I love the idea of getting influence from Support of the Kingdom to accelerate my Westeros Bleeds though. Brilliant!

Hey, I'm more than happy for you to hold Fury back until the 3rd or 4th turn... with the lack of high gold and high initiative plots I can pump the board full of weenies and resources for three turns and use my burn to control your characters. With only the Summer plot for a five gold, it is going to be hard to play your bigger characters if you are holding off on Fury while my burn is knocking off your own claim soak, and my weenies overwhelm your numbers. IOW the longer you wait to play it, the less likely you will have the neccessary character strength to beat me. By the time I throw a dragon down for you to steal the less likely you are to be able to take it.

Obviously this is assuming a number of factors that can't be assured, but this is how my deck tends to run against other Bara decks and other Bara players. I have no idea if it would work this way against either of yours.

its funny that you assume my deck needs a five gold plot, while yours can withhold playing strong characters and not suffer.

Yes we are talking perfect situations here, but thats kind of my point. I don't need the plot (if i'm not building a half ass'ed deck) to get my cards on the table. Nor do i need a specific card to win a power challenge in bara.

If i can a) keep you from playing your good characters for 1, 2, 3, or more turns i'll gladly take it or b) steal the first good character you flop again i'll gladly take it. This is why Stag and I see Fury having a huge advantage over Targ. As the bara player, with one card in my plot deck I can dictate the game to you. Sure you might be able to play your weenies, but that is at my dictating. Sure you might eventually risk putting a good character on the board, but i bet you will make a choice on which one you want to risk, and again i am dictating the way you play. Add on to that the perma steal and it is just not an advantage i would feel comfortable giving my opponet in a tournament, round 1, top 8, or the finals. Especially becuase targ doesn't really bring anythign to the table that you can;t get in anotehr house (attachment recurision maybe...but out of targ there is not a lot worth recursion)

But it isn't really dictating. My Targ deck is built to play this way. I always hold back on power cards until the resets start dropping because my burn and challenge control more than makes up for any strength deficiency (barring my deck crapping out), and my ability to recurse all thse cards ensures I don't have to hold any of those back fearful of a better character hitting the table... and I also don't have to wait for a special card to win a power challege against Bara. I build with plenty of redundancy a fair amount of draw, minimal silver bullet cards.

lol, not a lot worth recursing? Wow, you guys play and build very differently. Bones of a Child, FlameKissed, Poison Wine and Dragon Bite are great here for recursing. Even Dragon Skull has it's moments. As to nothing you can't get in any other house they have a strong mix of stealth, deadly, and tricons. I don't think they are the best House. I just don't believe that one plot is enough to knock the House out of competitive play... and if you honestly think so why aren't people making demands about it being nerfed?

I demand it be nerfed.

At least with Martell you can hold back your own Fury, and then return the card to your hand. In LCG, vs. Targ, this plot is dumb.

dormouse said:

sorry, 'out' should have been read as 'outside of', my fault.

dormouse said:

and if you honestly think so why aren't people making demands about it being nerfed?

well i didn't know we needed a head count, since that would have nerfed PL a long time before it was nerfed. Seriously though, i think there are 2 reasons why your not seeing a lot of chatter about it being nerfed

1) Standard [rearing its head again] is still a preferred format amongst the posting community and it is not as much of a problem there for a number of reasons.

2) cycle cards...if you nerf this one do you nerf any of the others (you've sure opened the door too...)

Lars said:

You mean like the Nightfire Convert?