Depends which ruleset you want to run them in after the change. But probably Deathwatch more so.

They do need playtested so feel free to give them a shot. I'd love to know how they play out!

Before you shoot me for heresy read what i have to say.

Fluff is inconsistent (not a suprise) about space marine initiation age. On the one side we know that organs must be inplanted at a young age but on the other side we have stuff like Kor Phaeron, Luther from horus heresy. In novels and books it's said that SM recruit mostly from feral worlds barbarians and warriors. I have a hard time imagening a 10 year old warrior. Also in Dawn od War game (which is considered canon) we have sergant Thadeus who was hive gang leader before he was recruited.

Of course chapter have traditions and dogma but just look at silver skulls and their attempt to connect one of adult neophytes to strike cruiser so he can technically become a living ship.

So is it possible to normal guardsman become a space marine? And if it is, how they would work? Mechanically in game and in fluff

My first idea was that it could be something like that. A chapter found something similar to STC with details how to create adult marine from HH era and want to experiment with this to bolster their numbers. Players are chosen due to their combat prowess. After their initiation they will become something like SM, take vows etc. They will be an experiment they will work as a squad and be evaluated by chapter apothecary.

I realize that most people will disagree with concept of adult space marine (just like adult jedi in SW ) and burn me for heresy but i really like some opinions on this matter.

PS. Not sure if i should post it here or in DW forum.

Well, as far as Luther and the other adults who followed their Primarchs into the Legions when the Emperor found them .. there were actually two different augmentation programs.

One turned the recipient into a full-on Space Marine, but after the recipient was a certain age, the success rate of the process dropped rapidly. This is closest to what's still around, and in these less advanced times, the upgrade process is generally less reliable, for various reasons, and generally, the younger the candidate, the better the odds of success.

The other was for those recipients too old to have a good chance of a successful full-Space Marine package upgrade, and is more akin to earlier upgrade programs, though more refined. This has fallen out of favor and/or been lost outright, but is/was a more reliable procedure, though less extensive, boosting strength, reflexes, toughness, etc, but without all the extra organs and build enhancement, etc.

It's unclear what the safe/reliable cutoff age for the full-Space Marine package was, though probably no older than early/mid twenties.

Hmmm. I like this notion. Generally, the accepted notion by fluff is that boy children comprise the majority of Astartes initiates, with some limited variance. However, you'll also find that this can change drastically, whatever fits the story a given BL author wants to tell. In William King's Space Wolf, for example, Ragnar was well into his late teens before being selected to join the Wolves. In one of my favourite pieces, the Damnation Crusade, the Black Templar hopefuls were depicted as wild-haired Conan and Tarzan types, with nary a one under the age of 20. Granted, it was penned by Dan Abnett, who is infamous for shooting fluff in the head for the sake of a good story, but meh, I'm cool with that. I'm with Lynata. Go with what works for the party and make it stick. If some fluff loon doesn't like it, hit em with the facts: there is no canon, because all things are canon. "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted."

As for my party they mostly are on the same side with me when it comes to fluff. We take that space marines are human super soldiers which are better, harder, more elite but still human. When SM get shot with plasma he will die same as guardsman, strip down his armor and weapon and he will be just human.Faster, stronger, tougher but human.

They all want to be elite so i was thinking it could be quite fun. As for players one would love to play a space marine, second is neutral, third just like to be normal badass since he dislike space marines in general and last one is cool with the idea.

In terms of game mechanics i was thinking about using BC template. Characters will get starting talents from BC space marine, unnatural strength and toughness. They won't get all organs since it would be hard to implant some of them and will not get better characteristics since the process is still experimental. So they will become something like quasi marines. I don't want to convert to deathwatch ruleset since after BC i realized how flawed the rules were in DT, RT, DH

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/126278-sons-of-the-emperor-adeptus-astartes-conversion-for-only-war/

I wrote these rules specifically with the intention of running Space Marine PCs in the Only War rules.

You can tweak the BC template and try to backfit OW style gameplay for loyalist marines, but why reinvent the wheel when I've done it for you already eh?

I was always under the impression that space marines only took initiates that weren't in puberty, something out the new organs needing a boost with the hormone craze the comes in adolescence or the changes being relatively final after puberty? Maybe I'm off on that.

Sort of, but that is just the GW studio's take on things . Which, like all fine details in 40k that frequently get disregarded by novels or certain P&P RPGs, may be discarded at will if the writer feels they have a better idea.

After readin a lots of novels i found that even most BL authors can't agree how things work in 40k universe especialy when related to tech priest's, space marines and chaos. Also lots of fluff contradict itself. Like from one source we have that inquisition will purge anyone even whole planets to ensure that nobody knows anything about chaos but another source state that cadians are so badass they live near the eye of terror and battle chaos every time even killing demons. I could list such examples but i think most of people seen that already.

So i think that everything can be permitted in such vast universe as long as it don't **** fluff too much. Female space marines are no go but space marines with human emotions which can get laid (space wolves for example) are fine by me. Of course everybody have their own playstyle but i look in codex for guidance And if it's not in the codex or wiki i just invent rest myself.

As for rules from SgtLazarus they look quite good. They aren't overpowered and i like it. Instead of weapon specialist i prefer name tactical marine though Hovewer i am not sure when we start to playtest this since my campaing going rather slowly (we play once a week ,3-4 hours) so before they get chance at this some time may pass.

You have been told of the inquisition... Everything you have been told is a lie.

I must admit my only taboo is (non chaos) female space marines. Normally i will stick with "implantation must occur during puberty" but i guess that can be easily stretched to early 20s. After all look at the avreage age of new recruits on our world. And during wartime even younger people will join up. So young guardsmen being "recruted" by a space marine chapter to become neophites would seem logical.

General: "Aaaaalroit! Lissen' up screw heads! You 'orrible lot have been chosen to join the hallowed ranks of the adeptus astartes! Emperor have mercy on us all! All I can hope for is that you handle those bolters better than you did your lasguns, you slackjawed malcontents! Now move out!"

Maybe a chapter (The Sons of Vengeance) that recruits from the schola progenium?

Even non-chaos female space marines can fly (technically/in theory) ... but only if they're from a Cursed Founding chapter.

I could definitely see a Chapter that went around picking off the cream of the crop, so to speak, from the schola progena. The only complaint would be that they'd be snagging some of the best candidates away from the other Adepta that draw from the Schola.

However, I don't see any Chapter mass drafting guardsmen or anyone else - they have to be careful in selecting candidates, otherwise they're just wasting precious gene-seed.

I could see someone (probably an Inquisitor or Magos-Genetor) employing guardsmen as guinea pigs in an augmentation program.

Yeah you are correct, them poor cursed founding marines, could possible be female.

Lol! I can see a bunch of cursed founding marines on a deathwatch squad talking amongst themselves...

Black Dragon marine: "I don't know why it's called a cursed founding! Look at my cool bone claws, sheated in adamantium! They are blades that i can never drop, blades that have slain scores of foul xenos! Ooh-rah!"

Lamenter marine: "You are lucky."

Cruor Mensis marine: "And you guys aren't."

Lamenter: "No. No we are not. sigh..."

Lamenter marine: "Hey new one, your chest armor seems a bit...odd. What makes your chapter diffrent?"

Cruor Mensis marine: "We... do not speak of it."

@Robin Graves - you are a horrible human being..... O.o The indirect Klingon reference was a nice touch...

Honestly, though, jokes aside, female Astartes? Is the thought really that unbelievable? This ficton features giant hordes of gribbly space bugs (some intelligent), Space Elv... I mean Eldar, the fightin' fungus known as the Orks.... Oh and vast armies of Undead Terminators (the I'll be Bach kind) that are one day mindless legions and the next are the reincarnated souls of nigh-angelic beings sent to fight Gods millennia past... And the argument is that they cannot exist is simply, "well you can't be, cuz you're girls..." ??? Shoot fluff in head, create your own, make it believable, run naked in the breeze.

Why? what did I do? Just becuz Cruor Mensis astartes baiscally translates as "Period marines"

(cruor= spilt blood. Mensis= month)

Hey I have to pick something to argue about. Might aswel be femarines.

Why do people want female marines? Aren't Adepta Sororitas good enough?

And in my version of the fluff the necrons are still the robot undead harvesters of all life, not Mumraaaaaah in spaaaace! Also grey knights got nerfed big time (no kal draigo), the Legion of the damned is NOT the Fire Hawks chapter and the dark future novels by Jack yeovil are canon.

I agree that sister of battle are good enough. They are in fact female space marines for most people in TT.

I think that people want female space marines becuase they think that space marines ni 40k are similar like those from starcraft.

Everybody has their own canon and it's fine by me if it's not ****** 40k universe so much that it's not 40k universe anymore.

Even non-chaos female space marines can fly (technically/in theory) ... but only if they're from a Cursed Founding chapter.

As Chapter Master of the Cursed Founding Female Space Marine Canon Solution Chapter, I hereby name you Captain of the First Company.

I think that people want female space marines becuase they think that space marines ni 40k are similar like those from starcraft.

It's probably a number of different reasons, split between different groups of people. To some, the Battle Sisters may be too uniform, lacking the "customisability" and variety you can find amongst Astartes Chapters, thus transforming a unique trait into a perceived drawback. To others, the Sisters may quite simply not be badass enough, as - let's face it - they don't get to stand in the limelight very often, have little to no presence in the licensed material (Black Library offers a grand total of three books about them), and are one of, if not the least supported army of the entire franchise. I still remember people thinking Relic invented the SoB because so many people have never heard of them before DoW:Soulstorm ...

Even in this very P&P RPG, they get civilian-grade weapons and a quantity-over-quality approach. No wonder next to no-one sees them as coming close to the Space Marines. Which, of course, may breed a desire for a role that is exactly as cool as a Marine, but for girls. And the most obvious solution here would be the female Marine.

Personally, I don't really like it myself, as I enjoy the hard split into male Astartes and female Sororitas, but I can at least understand the general interest in "Femarines". Obviously, in an ideal world, a female player should have no problem playing a male Space Marine, because RPGs are all about slipping into other characters' skins (and I'd argue that the cultural difference between contemporary western citizen and 41st millennium indoctrinated supersoldier is far greater than between man and woman), alas some people really seem to have an issue with that, and for them this might be the only solution to have fun in their game.

[edit] Sorry, this has turned half into a rant.

Bottom line, in most interpretations of the fluff, the Space Marines quite simply do not have an equivalent for the female gender, and this perceived lack of options for what is arguably the most powerful character archetype of the entire franchise (as far as established portrayal and presence in your game go) may breed a desire to "fix" it, for a number of reasons.

There's no one single reason why people want female space marines. It's more of a synthesis of reasons.

Part of the problem with the Sororitas/Marine thing is, in at least some places/versions, the Sororitas are the ones who get called in to purge rogue Space Marine Chapters ... and with the way Marines are (usually) represented and the way Sororitas are (usually) represented, there's basically no way that that should work without massive piles of dead Sororitas, if it works at all.

I mean, sure, they get the fusion power supply for their power armor like Astartes do - although Sororitas armor is much lighter weight than Astartes armor - and standard issue bolters like Astartes do - but in a lot of the representations, the bolters that the Sororitas get aren't as effective as the bolters the Astartes get.

Even in the Sororitas books, they get slapped around - a lot - by regular mook-level humans that any Astartes would probably have been represented as oneshotting with one finger. For that matter, even on an organizational level, the Sororitas get yanked around in ways that would have Astartes drop pods landing on the offender's residence. They get banned from going to their own shrine world for years after it was attacked, and conditions get placed on their being allowed to return.

I mean, come on ... the concept of the Sororitas is a cool one ... but you can't say that the concept has been done justice, having been poorly executed, at best, and actively stomped on at worst. See: Matt Ward having Grey Knights butcher Sororitas and then using them as armor paint.

Even non-chaos female space marines can fly (technically/in theory) ... but only if they're from a Cursed Founding chapter.

As Chapter Master of the Cursed Founding Female Space Marine Canon Solution Chapter, I hereby name you Captain of the First Company.

Hail! Think one of your posts on the subject might've been where that came from.

Although ... they could perhaps also come from one of the lesser known Foundings, Forgotten or otherwise. In theory, there could have been other attempts to manipulate gene-seed or programs to create a (new type of) genetically enhanced supersoldier, beyond just that of the Cursed Founding, though they likely would have been implemented on a smaller scale, especially after some of the problems with the Cursed Founding projects. And if such a program took place after the Sororitas came into being, they could have selected some Sororitas as subjects.

The legacies of such a program, should it have been even partially successful, would likely have been the source for the Sororitas who can stand on par with and purge Astartes. They'd probably be without most of the Astartes extra organs and such, but enhanced reflexes, strength, and toughness ought to be feasible. This would likely be akin to the second type of augmenation used on the Primarch's followers who were too old for the full-on Space Marine package to be safe/reliable.

Wanted to write a long post and i did but then missclicked and closed the tab so i be brief now. Wanted to voice my opinion since topic derailed into female space marines discussion anyway.

For me female space marine is huge no. If people think that female space marine would be slim blonde with long hair they are mistaken. Woman after gene therapy like space marine would not resemble woman much. Image steroids bodybuilder and you get the picture .

Only way i would accept female space marine is chaos one. Chaos by it's very nature is chaotic So anything goes. We got CSM with claws, tails, wings, burning one, with tentacles and other **** so a female one would not be anything strange to me. You don't even need to worship slanesh.

For me female space marine is huge no. If people think that female space marine would be slim blonde with long hair they are mistaken. Woman after gene therapy like space marine would not resemble woman much. Image steroids bodybuilder and you get the picture .

This old saw again?

I hate to point this put, but to even FIT in that armor, space marines wouldn't even look human. They certainly wouldn't look like heavily muscled men, and there's a reason that it used to be that they could not remove the armor without dying.

Now they all look like bulkier versions of superman who stand around in togas and robes when not kicking ass..

Women doing gene therapy to become space marines, as you put it, would also not look like that. Part of the change in proportion there is a side effect of using testosterone and focusing on muscle bulk in their body building. What you want to do is alter the genetic sequence that produces myostatin. That would give you

looking space marines. Further, some chapters are mentioned as having denser musculature than others. So, yes, you very well could, assuming Space Marines look human at all, have them look like Heidi Vuorela here, hilariously without breaking canon, even.

Further, muscle bulk does not always translate into greater strength.

Gold medal and Olympic record setter Maiya Maneza here is very strong but is still clearly female.

Part of the problem with the Sororitas/Marine thing is, in at least some places/versions, the Sororitas are the ones who get called in to purge rogue Space Marine Chapters ... and with the way Marines are (usually) represented and the way Sororitas are (usually) represented, there's basically no way that that should work without massive piles of dead Sororitas, if it works at all.

It's a matter of which sources you read. As far as I'm aware, the only books that mention Sisters purging Marine Chapters is GW's own material, and ironically the Space Marines are also depicted as quite a bit more vulnerable there - I can even cite incidents where Astartes got "slapped around by regular mook-level humans" ... although this is quite rare, and I think this is more due to deployment methods and mission parameters rather than power levels. Hell, in the White Dwarf accounts of the Horus Heresy, there is an incident where Horus got incapacitated by a random trooper with a plasma gun.

If what you mean by "usual representation" is the Black Library novels, though, then I'd say that it is quite common for those books to portray a different image of the Sororitas, from their culture all the way to training and equipment quality. In most cases I've read and heard about, they seem to be used as a sort of narrative sacrifice to make some threat seem more dangerous as it manage to kill off something that is more elite than the IG, yet without touching the Space Marines (which tend to be the protagonists then swooping in to save the day - Blood of Asaheim is an infamous example that springs to mind).

Likewise, the Space Marines are often subjected to significant plot armour and portrayed as more heroic in mindset as well, though this too depends greatly on the author. For example, if anyone has read Gav Thorpe's "Know Thine Enemy", they will probably notice that the Salamanders in that story are quite a bit different from the version that seems most popular among their fans - both in Chapter culture as well as power level. Is it coincidence that Gav Thorpe was also a game designer at GW? You be the judge. In the end, it's just that everyone has their own idea of how things - including armies - in 40k work.

I'd certainly agree about the Sisters having been handled badly, in the grand scheme of things. But to me, this primarily seems to be the fault of artistic license in novels and other outlets of the IP that are considered more popular and more widely known than codices and White Dwarf - plus, this is a subjective assessment, as there seems to be a great deal of people who actually prefer those weaker interpretations, for whatever reasons.

tl;dr: it is actually pretty consistent ... if you limit your perception to a singular origin of sources, be that the GW studio, or a specific BL author, or FFG's RPGs.

See: Matt Ward having Grey Knights butcher Sororitas and then using them as armor paint.

I see this being mentioned a lot, but truth be told, I think this actually speaks for the Sisters.

If you analyse the story, what you are walking away with here is that the Sororitas, due to their strength of conviction and single-minded innocence, are apparently harder to corrupt than the Grey Knights, who, due to being psykers, have to rely on arcane rituals to augment their inherent willpower-based resilience to remain untouched by daemonic taint.

As a Sisters fan, I think this is pretty badass. I don't care that they get killed by the GKs - Imperials fighting Imperials for some nebulous greater good is called Grimdark.

Although ... they could perhaps also come from one of the lesser known Foundings, Forgotten or otherwise. In theory, there could have been other attempts to manipulate gene-seed or programs to create a (new type of) genetically enhanced supersoldier, beyond just that of the Cursed Founding, though they likely would have been implemented on a smaller scale, especially after some of the problems with the Cursed Founding projects. And if such a program took place after the Sororitas came into being, they could have selected some Sororitas as subjects.

The legacies of such a program, should it have been even partially successful, would likely have been the source for the Sororitas who can stand on par with and purge Astartes. They'd probably be without most of the Astartes extra organs and such, but enhanced reflexes, strength, and toughness ought to be feasible.

Hypothetically, if in GW's material some Inquisitors were able to clone their own pet-Primarchs during the Cursed Founding, I don't see why a secret project to create Femarines would have to miss out on any of the Biologis-created implants, unless you wanted them to.

Also, if I may be so bold, I'd suggest just taking female recruits directly from the Schola Progenium, as there is no reason to involve the Sororitas in such a project (and could even be counterproductive due to the unnecessary attention). The girls are "already" 14 years once they begin their novitiate at the Sisterhood, and 17 when they become fully-fledged Sisters, which is already pushing the conventional age limits for Marinification .

I'd say just funnel some of the progena that would otherwise be eligible for Commissar, Storm Trooper and/or Sororitas training into this secret project before those organisations are notified of these prospective recruits. Problem solved.

Unless I misunderstood your whole idea and you were arguing for "enhanced Battle Sisters" rather than female Space Marines. Though in this case I'd warn that the concept of genetic modification may go against the Ecclesiarchy's purity dogma about the sacred human form. They barely tolerate the Astartes!

I'd be all for an SoB-version of Terminator/Centurion armour, though. Something slimmer but larger, Alien power-lifter-style, with a single-use jetpack instead of teleport homers for deepstrike insertion and more focused on close combat than ranged, sporting built-in flamethrowers, a large kite shield and a spring-action power lance ... hmm, images in my head.

(standard disclaimer: the above opinion was formed based on GW studio fluff and may conflict with equally valid versions of the setting propagated in other official sources)

Oh god, Mat ward... That guy is gonna get me accepted into the Red Lantern corps one of these days.

Why would they need to kill SoB for sanctified blood? They already have aegis suit armour.

Hey you are right! They don't have any terminator style armor.I imagine them covered in fleur-de-lis and armed with a cyclone missile launcher (chaped like an aquila or pipe organ) combi flamers and thunder hammers.

(disclaimer: The above opinions are my own and not at all influneced by the alpha legion. Seriously I'm a devout servant of the imperium! Hail hydra..err I mean For the Emperor!)

@Robin Graves

What delicious trolli- glorious truth-spouting, devout servant of the Hyd- Emperor....my jaded slaanes- Imperial heart delights at your decep- unalienable truths!

(disclaimer: The above opinions are my own and not at all influneced by the alpha legion. Seriously I'm a devout servant of the imperium! Hail hydra..err I mean For the Emperor!)