I have not been very impressed with AoR as a whole. This book did not fix that opinion. I wanted a spec that would make a starfighter pilot to be a playable character from the start. The way the starship rules are, if you put Grandmaster Luke Skywalker in his X-Wing in a battle with 3 tie fighters, he is going to lose. There just isn't enough character skill in the defense of starships. This would have been a great opportunity to give us a spec that specialized in starfighters. Hotshot is not it.

The starships in this book weren't that interesting. The weapons felt like mandatory scope creep and the races were uninspired.

I compare the Star Wars rules to the Palladium RPG. It works in one instance and everything else produced has to be hammered into that instance instead of adopting something that works better.

1. Zar, your definition of "playable from the start" is very narrow, if you're defining it as "a PC fighter pilot who can take on 3 enemies at once." If you're looking for that level of capability, might I suggest Knight Level Play?

2. Grand Master Luke Skywalker isn't a starting character...better to compare a starting Ace to Biggs Darklighter; Wedge Antilles; or Luke Skywalker, farmboy fresh off of Tatooine (well...maybe starting level plus 30-50 XP). I'd actually put Luke in as a Force and Destiny starting PC, Warrior: Starfighter Ace, but that's a totally different discussion!

3. Having a bad GM, who sets you up to lose, doesn't mean the rules are bad. If a GM throws a starting Ace PC up against three rival/nemesis TIE fighters with no wingmen to support him, he should expect a resounding defeat for the PC. Look what Darth Vader and his two wingmen did to each of the Rebel fighters by singling them out. Wedge got clear, which put him out of the fight, which in turn would generally mean he exceeded one of his Thresholds (but without sustaining some debilitating Critical Hit).

You've gotta be really good before you can reliably take on multiple bogeys all by your lonesome, and that feels right. Rules-right, I mean.

What in the worlds are you doing all by yourself in an X-Wing, anyway?

4. For a starfighter-focused-specialization, how about the aforementioned Starfighter Ace from FaD ?

5. In what instance do these rules work, and how are things being otherwise hammered into that instance? Because in all my gaming, both as a PC and as a GM, I have honestly never felt that way about these rules. They have always served me well.

--

TL;DR the game rules are like the Force: they control my actions in part, but they also obey my commands

My point is even someone of high level has few options in mitigating the chance of getting disabled in a starfighter. I grant that it's hard to actually die in space combat.

I do not think that the space combat system works well at all and it's more noticeable with starfighters.

I think the biggest issue with starfighter combat is that it's not a party activity. Unlike space stuff in a freighter, Edge style, unless your entire party is comprised of Aces (or other pilot-y or gunner-y specs), it's not an activity that everyone can participate in. This leaves it in this weird state where it has to be included in the game because it's Star Wars, but it really doesn't have a place in the system as they've designed it.

All of the starfighters feel like they were designed for NPC use, and considering that Edge was the starting point, with the space emphasis on freighters and larger ships, they likely were.

I think the biggest issue with starfighter combat is that it's not a party activity. Unlike space stuff in a freighter, Edge style, unless your entire party is comprised of Aces (or other pilot-y or gunner-y specs), it's not an activity that everyone can participate in. This leaves it in this weird state where it has to be included in the game because it's Star Wars, but it really doesn't have a place in the system as they've designed it.

It can be an activity that everybody can participate in. Agility alone is enough to fly and shoot, so everybody can contribute. This is no different from personal combat where not everybody is trained in Ranged (Light) or Melee. However, for everybody to participate you usually need multiple vehicles (or ones with several guns), and this does tend to be uncommon for PC groups.

And speaking of Stay on Target, my copy should arrive within a few days, but Im curious if the Kaadu is amongst the beasts?

Yup. See: http://swrpg.viluppo.net/adversaries/creature/1739/

It can be an activity that everybody can participate in. Agility alone is enough to fly and shoot, so everybody can contribute. This is no different from personal combat where not everybody is trained in Ranged (Light) or Melee. However, for everybody to participate you usually need multiple vehicles (or ones with several guns), and this does tend to be uncommon for PC groups.

Additionally, there's functionally very little difference in starfighter combat between an ace and anybody else, particularly early on. It doesn't matter which party member it is, if the GM sets them up to lose by having two rookie TIE fighters fire/fly individually and they win initiative, whomever they decide to aim at will be most likely down for the count.

I think the biggest issue with starfighter combat is that it's not a party activity. Unlike space stuff in a freighter, Edge style, unless your entire party is comprised of Aces (or other pilot-y or gunner-y specs), it's not an activity that everyone can participate in. This leaves it in this weird state where it has to be included in the game because it's Star Wars, but it really doesn't have a place in the system as they've designed it.

It can be an activity that everybody can participate in. Agility alone is enough to fly and shoot, so everybody can contribute. This is no different from personal combat where not everybody is trained in Ranged (Light) or Melee. However, for everybody to participate you usually need multiple vehicles (or ones with several guns), and this does tend to be uncommon for PC groups.

The difference in my mind is that while ground combat is primarily based on skills and creative use of the environment, ability in the seat of a fighter has very little to do with your Piloting skill and is mostly governed by your talents. Sure, shooting someone in a ship is still just Gunnery, but to actually be able to do anything interesting in a fighter you need loads of talents, or else you have the often-mentioned problem of whoever shoots first winning.

It can be an activity that everybody can participate in. Agility alone is enough to fly and shoot, so everybody can contribute. This is no different from personal combat where not everybody is trained in Ranged (Light) or Melee. However, for everybody to participate you usually need multiple vehicles (or ones with several guns), and this does tend to be uncommon for PC groups.

Additionally, there's functionally very little difference in starfighter combat between an ace and anybody else, particularly early on. It doesn't matter which party member it is, if the GM sets them up to lose by having two rookie TIE fighters fire/fly individually and they win initiative, whomever they decide to aim at will be most likely down for the count.

When I win initiative as a GM, and it's TIE fighters vs. Rebel snubfighters, I usually open with Gain the Advantage. It does two things simultaneously: 1) it doesn't destroy the PC's ships, and 2) it increases the threat level. So if the PCs do nothing about the GtA this round, then next round is gonna hurt! But usually they think of something. As a PC, it's pretty easy to either outrun or outgun minions in TIE fighters.

Gain the Advantage was totally built for TIE fighter squadrons. And freighters with guns.

My point is even someone of high level has few options in mitigating the chance of getting disabled in a starfighter. I grant that it's hard to actually die in space combat.

I do not think that the space combat system works well at all and it's more noticeable with starfighters.

Unmatched Survivability?

I think the biggest issue with starfighter combat is that it's not a party activity. Unlike space stuff in a freighter, Edge style, unless your entire party is comprised of Aces (or other pilot-y or gunner-y specs), it's not an activity that everyone can participate in. This leaves it in this weird state where it has to be included in the game because it's Star Wars, but it really doesn't have a place in the system as they've designed it.

All of the starfighters feel like they were designed for NPC use, and considering that Edge was the starting point, with the space emphasis on freighters and larger ships, they likely were.

I feel you are correct. And I think it's a flaw because starfighter combat should be a part of AoR.

<sarcasm>Right because pirates, mercenaries, underworld organizations, and assassins or hitmen have no use for starfighter combat. </sarcasm>

<dejected> Are people still complaining about the elegance of the starship combat system? Is there some pandemic that causes inability to learn new stuff? Wow. </dejected>

Just got the book yesterday. Very happy to see the change done to the targeting goggles. The play-test version was way too obvious an automatic go-to accessory for anyone using the Gunnery skill. If I remember correctly.

I haven't had the opportunity to read it thoroughly, but so far it looks really good.

A bit meh'ed by the Rigger; while the talents are cool, there's too few instances of them, or they should've gone a different route, not making that many of them ranked. Ah well. Some other book might rectify that by adding more instances of them...

<dejected> Are people still complaining about the elegance of the starship combat system? Is there some pandemic that causes inability to learn new stuff? Wow. </dejected>

Just got the book yesterday. Very happy to see the change done to the targeting goggles. The play-test version was way too obvious an automatic go-to accessory for anyone using the Gunnery skill. If I remember correctly.

I haven't had the opportunity to read it thoroughly, but so far it looks really good.

A bit meh'ed by the Rigger; while the talents are cool, there's too few instances of them, or they should've gone a different route, not making that many of them ranked. Ah well. Some other book might rectify that by adding more instances of them...

Man, that was an obnoxious post. People are complaining about the *outcomes* of the rules, rather than that they have to learn something new.

<dejected> Are people still complaining about the elegance of the starship combat system? Is there some pandemic that causes inability to learn new stuff? Wow. </dejected>

Man, that was an obnoxious post. People are complaining about the *outcomes* of the rules, rather than that they have to learn something new.

I assume you're referring to the first part, rather than the whole post? The first line and a half that is.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps not, you're certainly entitled to think so, nothing I can do about that. I think that if one just takes a step back, removes the blinkers, open one's eyes and looks around, one can learn something new instead of claiming some authority to define some misguided idea of objective quality of, or unavoidable outcome of said rules. Because it's a funny thing that all this complaining and bad experiences people claim and retell only mirror my initial experience with the system, until I spent some time and energy to learn and get into the intention and spirit of the rules, rather than stick to my own esteemed and enlightened narcissistic opinionated vulgar self-celebration.

(Although I have added some stuff to it as house-rules, but I've been trying to keep it within the spirit of the system, rather than redoing it all in some vain attempt to "fix" it, why would I, I mean, it isn't broken).

I mean, sure, the rules are not perfect, but they work well, they're simple, dynamic and flexible. They might of course not "do it" for everyone, that's fine, but the question is then "why doesn't it work for you, when it works for others"? I mean, it can't be just the system at that point can it?

This is why I think it could be more about learning something new (or old, depending on your point of view), rather than the outcomes of the existing system, but hey, what do I know...

Got my copy, and I'm very happy with all of the new starfighters, but I have a question.

On page 58, what is the TIE fighter in the top right? It looks kind of like a TIE Scout, but the deflector wings are the wrong shape. I also can't seem to find any stats for this ship.

My group is really into the dogfighting, so I like to have as many options as possible to offer.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Got my copy, and I'm very happy with all of the new starfighters, but I have a question.

On page 58, what is the TIE fighter in the top right? It looks kind of like a TIE Scout, but the deflector wings are the wrong shape. I also can't seem to find any stats for this ship.

My group is really into the dogfighting, so I like to have as many options as possible to offer.

Thanks in advance for any help!

The one with the derpy looking third topwing? That would be a Tie Oppressor I believe

Yeah I'm hoping that image means the TIE Opressor is coming soon because the Oppressor is my favorite TIE class and one of the few fighters from my top ten favorite Star Wars Fighter designs not currently in the FFG system

So I have my copy now, and questions:

1) Several ships can now launch bombs and it's written that they're used against ground targets. Would you allow bombing capital ships, especially big ones? I can easily imagine a Tie Bomber skimming above Rebel cruiser launching bombs... And

2) How many bombs are released? Only one per action? A cluster?

edit:

another question:

Table 3-2 for symbol interpretation in Nebula, despair: suffer strain equal to twice the threat generated. Since it is a despair - would you rather rule it is worth 3 threats, or 2 (before doubling).

So I have my copy now, and questions:

1) Several ships can now launch bombs and it's written that they're used against ground targets. Would you allow bombing capital ships, especially big ones? I can easily imagine a Tie Bomber skimming above Rebel cruiser launching bombs... And

2) How many bombs are released? Only one per action? A cluster?

edit:

another question:

Table 3-2 for symbol interpretation in Nebula, despair: suffer strain equal to twice the threat generated. Since it is a despair - would you rather rule it is worth 3 threats, or 2 (before doubling).

Wouldn't a bomb require gravity to drop correctly from a vehicle? Otherwise I would assume that it was a missile.

So I have my copy now, and questions:

1) Several ships can now launch bombs and it's written that they're used against ground targets. Would you allow bombing capital ships, especially big ones? I can easily imagine a Tie Bomber skimming above Rebel cruiser launching bombs... And

2) How many bombs are released? Only one per action? A cluster?

edit:

another question:

Table 3-2 for symbol interpretation in Nebula, despair: suffer strain equal to twice the threat generated. Since it is a despair - would you rather rule it is worth 3 threats, or 2 (before doubling).

Wouldn't a bomb require gravity to drop correctly from a vehicle? Otherwise I would assume that it was a missile.

Not necessarily. It could be given some sort of a push out of the bay, whether that's a small charge or a spring of some kind. It doesn't need to have a constant propellant like a missile.

Or a small one time bi-phasing tractor beam push - real world physics has nothing to do with SW, or my questions

Wouldn't a bomb require gravity to drop correctly from a vehicle? Otherwise I would assume that it was a missile.

No, you could disengage the clamps and then pull up. Let the bomb continue with the same velocity vector that it had before it was released, until impact.

Bombing in zero-g works just fine, so long as the systems are designed for it.

A star destroyer probably produces enough of a gravity pull considering their artificial gravity seems to run the entire ship + their size. But I would assume in a galaxy where they have planet size space stations and hyper drive they probably have invented a few different methods of releasing bombs in space.

As for the flying rules. They didn't make sense at first so I forgot everything I knew from previous games and learnt them from scratch and now I think they work really well. Takes a bit of getting use to but this isn't like the other games. "you must unlearn what you have learned"

As for the flying rules. They didn't make sense at first so I forgot everything I knew from previous games and learnt them from scratch and now I think they work really well. Takes a bit of getting use to but this isn't like the other games. "you must unlearn what you have learned"

This is totally it. If you ditch your compounded gaming knowledge and read the rules with a fresh mind, they are really quite easy to grasp, IMO.

Longeing Whip costs 600 credits, the price is an absurd. . There are dozens of better Melee weapons that cost cheaper or blasters. Does anyone know if there was some kind of errata about this item?