My jaw is officially on the floor on this one and all my palms on all my faces.

I'm working a bit on my own rules and I wanted to reference the Blood Loss rule in the latest version of the official rules, which would be Dark Heresy 2nd Edition, and I pull it up and.. apparently you can no longer die from Blood Loss?

Unless I'm missing some other rule, all Blood Loss does now is give you 1 Fatigue.

Is that really correct, or am I missing something obvious?

Because if not, that might actually be the worst decision I've come across for DH2 so far.

Grimdark found the same issue, it's actually possible, just referenced in a different area. I want to say it's in the fatigue section? I'm not sure.

Huh, thanks a lot for pointing it out. I actually had it in my head that you always died with too high Fatigue, but apparently not.

So before, you couldn't die due to Fatigue.

Now, you cannot die due to blood loss (other than getting too high Fatigue).

The obvious answer should be that you can die due to both!

It should certainly be possible but I think it's up to the players.

If a character is suffering bloodloss and they're alone and unable to patch themselves up, they collapse and eventually die.

If a character is suffering bloodloss and they have a Chirurgeon with his hands in their belly, the risk of death is somewhat averted in that the Chirurgeon is doing his damndest to stop the bleeding, but may make it worse by inflicting levels of fatigue/toughness damage, hastening the end. Or he gets it right and knits the character back together with Wood glue.

Huh, thanks a lot for pointing it out. I actually had it in my head that you always died with too high Fatigue, but apparently not.

So before, you couldn't die due to Fatigue.

Now, you cannot die due to blood loss (other than getting too high Fatigue).

The obvious answer should be that you can die due to both!

Blood loss will certainlly kill you eventually, its just not totally random like it was before. It's not really appropriate to say something like "Blood Loss can't kill you." If left untreated, it will result in character death. Yes, the -way- it kills the character is through the fatigue mechanic, but thats fine. Heck, it makes other fatigue sources still be dangerous. And it makes suffering Blood Loss at high fatigue quite dangerous.

This thread encapsulates a lot on why FFG needs better editors.

Why is something called Fatigue fatal?

Why are the rules for bleeding out and fatigue separated by 10 pages?

Why don't the rules for blood loss remind you how its effects can be fatal?

Why doesn't the mention of fatigue in the blood loss rules link to the rules for fatigue (PDF)?

It's very poorly laid out.

Because it can be fatal. Severe fatigue can cause the shut-down of major organs and stuff.

Why are the rules for bleeding out and fatigue separated by 10 pages?

I dunno, I saw blood loss giving fatigue so I went to look up what the effects of fatigue actually are and there it was. Didn't take me any time to look up.

I think the assumption that you know everything because of having read a different core rulebook has more to do with it.

Do you really need to be reminded that blood loss can be fatal?

That's the only thing I can agree on, it would have been easy to put a pagenumber there. At least there is an index at the back of the book.

As for the blood loss and fatigue being linked together:

Blood loss does cause fatigue so I guess instead of having 2 seperate conditions, they linked it to fatigue instead. I'll quote something from wikipedia:

"Fatigue is a normal result of working , mental stress , overstimulation and understimulation, jet lag or active recreation , depression , and also boredom , disease and lack of sleep . It may also have chemical causes, such as poisoning or mineral or vitamin deficiencies. Chronic blood loss frequently results in fatigue, as do other conditions that cause anemia . Fatigue is different from drowsiness, where a patient feels that sleep is required. Fatigue is a normal response to physical exertion or stress, but can also be a sign of a physical disorder."

The reason is quite simple: they active try to avoid (and sometimes fail) rules duplication in order to save space.

Honestly, they do a pretty good job of that. Now, for the reader and player, it's absolutely horrific, with related rules spread far and wide in the rulebook(s). But it makes sense from a page count perspective.

While writing my own rules, since it's all digital, having unlimited space is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Printed material? Not so much.

The reason is quite simple: they active try to avoid (and sometimes fail) rules duplication in order to save space.

Honestly, they do a pretty good job of that. Now, for the reader and player, it's absolutely horrific, with related rules spread far and wide in the rulebook(s). But it makes sense from a page count perspective.

While writing my own rules, since it's all digital, having unlimited space is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Printed material? Not so much.

Surely a proper editor could help organize things in such a way that the rules are easier to read and more cohesively linked.

The reason is quite simple: they active try to avoid (and sometimes fail) rules duplication in order to save space.

Honestly, they do a pretty good job of that. Now, for the reader and player, it's absolutely horrific, with related rules spread far and wide in the rulebook(s). But it makes sense from a page count perspective.

While writing my own rules, since it's all digital, having unlimited space is a wonderful, wonderful thing.

Printed material? Not so much.

Surely a proper editor could help organize things in such a way that the rules are easier to read and more cohesively linked.

It could be better, for sure, especially with the linking - I was merely pointing out why they avoid rules duplication. Sometimes I feel that I could do with a little less art (even though Dark Heresy 2 is gorgeous(!) and a little more rules duplication, though.

Like how in Black Crusade, the rules for advancements are spread between the middle of "Character Creation" and the "Skills" and "Talents" section(s). The alignments of the advances aren't even listed amongst the Skills & Talents. Things like that are unforgivable.

WH40kRP isn't the easiest of systems at time, and the way some rules are spread out far and wide is really jarring sometimes. I cannot count the number of situations I've been going "I could've sworn the rule was here somewhere, hang on... hang on.. uhm.." just to find it way off somewhere else.

In some regards, FFG does a stellar job with the editing - all that work with the art, for example - and at other times they are rightfully known to be some of the worst editors in the industry. I think it all comes down to lack of review and editing, likely due to perceived time constraints.

I'm not sure of the economy of FFG, but I get the feeling that they are under tremendous stress for whatever reason, and is just pushing out games and books, and they seem to need help to organize the process, because quality is suffering due to it.

I think criticals should give more fatigue than before. They increased fatigue threshold, yet they didn't increase, how much you take during combat.

I think criticals should give more fatigue than before. They increased fatigue threshold, yet they didn't increase, how much you take during combat.

Probably a good thing to keep at the back of my head when I review this stuff before incorporating it. Thanks.

When I read about increased treshold, I thought it was an obvious move. I was surprised to see criticals in the unchanged form.

This thread encapsulates a lot on why FFG needs better editors.

Why is something called Fatigue fatal?

Exhaustion in DnD 5th can kill you... and in fact seems to be a hell of a lot more deadly than actually getting stabbed by a sword, as you just need 8 hours rest to recover from being repeatedly stabbed, while repeated Exhaustion takes longer to fall off.

This thread encapsulates a lot on why FFG needs better editors.

Why is something called Fatigue fatal?

Exhaustion in DnD 5th can kill you... and in fact seems to be a hell of a lot more deadly than actually getting stabbed by a sword, as you just need 8 hours rest to recover from being repeatedly stabbed, while repeated Exhaustion takes longer to fall off.

I have a hard time thinking of systems where you *can'*t die from Fatigue or Exhaustion, really. I'd expect it to be way stranger, considering that it's a pretty common cause of death.

I think the real problem is that systems kind of treat it in a rather haphazard way. DH1st edition had it give you a notable penalty, but then nothing happened further until you fell unconscious. Raging Barbarians in DnD5th (or at least a certain build of them) can rage themselves to death. Sometimes it ended up being more dangerous than normal damage, which is rather odd, but because the game presumes it is a rare thing so needs it to be risky to be worth noticing, while actually it should take a lot to kill you, but you should feel its effects much sooner.