This has been questioned a couple of times in my group, and I made a GM call on it the other night.

After my group had dispatched a couple guys outside a cantina, I rolled the initiative for the guys inside, and they ended up with 3 slots before the PCs.

Since the enemy knew the PCs were outside, they would logically wait until until the PCs entered the cantina before they fired.

But without being able to 'hold their actions' the PCs would all be able to act before the enemy could fire off their shots when they entered.

So I made a GM call on it, but I cant find anything that 'allows' for this in the rules mechanically.

But if I start to do things like that, some of my players are going to start demanding they get to do the same.

How would you resolve this?

Would you move the 'held' initiative slots do the que until they are activated, and then leave the slot there for the duration? (I can see this being argued, as it goes against the system of shared slots) But i was in the situation that ALL my slots were before the PCs... and they could simply have stormed in, taken no fire from the ambushers (who were ready for them), and out goes the narrative.

Suggestions?

Cheers

RD

An initiative roll was made for an ambush? Why would the PCs even get a roll if they were not aware of the pending ambush in the first place? I know there's Vigilance and Cool rolls to be made when being caught off guard, or not expecting aggression, but to be completely caught unaware (Failing to notice the ambush) in my opinion wouldn't have been even told to the PCs until the blasters started blazing. Then once the first reign of fire was done, it's initiative time.

As for holding actions to allow someone else to go ahead, my general rule there would be that those that hold their actions go last. They wouldn't be able to "interrupt" an initiative just because they won the initiative roll off. It would just lead to impractical unbalanced situations, and yes much aggression from your PCs.

Now say the PCs were setting up an ambush, and after scouting out that their targets were coming into the trap, it'd work the same way for my games. The PCs would get their first attacks off, and then initiative would be rolled, with the PCs using Cool and the Victims of the Ambush rolling Vigilance. I would give the Victims a chance to become aware of the ambush, but after that...nope. There's a reason they're called Victims.

If you wanted to ambush them, ambush them. Did the players know there were more men inside before you rolled? If not, did the players have reason to go in anyway? If yes, I wouldn't have rolled until the players entered the Cantina, possibly even after a shot or two was fired by the NPCs.

If the players knew men were in there, I'm assuming they still have a reason to go in, but same result. I wouldn't have rolled until the players are inside, unless the men are willing to come outside.

To be fair, i did mess up abit.

They already had initiative roll for the combat outside the cantina, and they rightly (and fairly obviously) assumed the rest of hte gang was inside (And aware of them due to the sound of the fight outside)

But I rolled the rest of the gangs initiative before they entered the cantina, and I probably shouldnt have (I was trying to be nicely prepared)

One way to do it given the initiative order is that if the ambushers were inside waiting for the PCs to enter, use their respective maneuvers and actions to hide behind heavy cover and set up firing positions. After all, you can trade a maneuver for an action. With that, they move into positions, and then take an aim maneuver. They then take their actions, if/when the PCs are silly enough to move into the bar in the next turn... because when the PCs move into the bar, it's highly unlikely that they'd go in guns blazing, as they wouldn't necessarily know where the hostiles are --I'd say they'd need to make checks in order to spot their assailants once they enter with a success required in order to know where to shoot. If unsuccessful, increase/upgrade the difficulty of the shot for the round they enter if they choose to shoot. If I were the PCs and felt forced to go in, I'd be spending actions as maneuvers to get to cover first. If they're silly enough to walk in guns blazing, they won't really hit anything and will be subject to a round of double-aimed shots...

Have the guys inside take over the initiative slots for the guys on the outside.

If the opponents inside weren't involved in the fight, regardless of whether the players surmise they are in the cantina, it would probably just be handled as a separate initiative roll. There's no rule per se about holding actions but there's also no rule that says common sense doesn't get a seat at the table, you just extend the auto ambush courtesy to your players and everyone is equal.

I actually just house-ruled a "ready action" Action à la d20 games (and many others) as I was unable to find any rulings for it as well.

Spend an Action to set up parameters in which the character performs an action. When it is triggered the actor interrupts the turn, takes the action, and then the turn continues. The readied actor would then move the related initiative slot below the the one belonging to the trigger of the action. If the trigger never happens then the ready action is wasted.

I have found that it adds to the cinematic feel of the game without slowing things down. My players really enjoy it and I as a player love that my GMs have adapted the rule as well. It may not be recommended for everyone's game but if you are looking for it to exist than yeah I'd say give it a try.

Example: 1 guy in cantina; 2 players; Slots = NPC (1)->PC(Bill)->PC(Jill)
GM: *NPC 1 will Ready to shoot when the door opens.* Alright bill, your turn.
Bill: I move to the side of the door and ready an Action to open the door when Jill gets to me.
Jill: I also move to the door.
Bill: My readied action triggers and I open the door. *Bill's PC slot moves behind Jill's*
GM: The merc was waiting and opens fire. *determines and records results; the NPC slot moves behind Bill's*
Jill: I complete my turn by returning fire. *End round; re-assign slots*

@OfficerZan

I really like that... does it permanently reorganize the initiative slots?

As in subsequent rounds, would the Initiative order become:

Jill - Bill - NPC ?

Unless of course someone Readies again?

How would you reconcile a PC moving to fire through the door opened by the PC, while the NPC is waiting to shoot through the door as its opening?

@OfficerZan

I really like that... does it permanently reorganize the initiative slots?

As in subsequent rounds, would the Initiative order become:

Jill - Bill - NPC ?

Yes, it would be permanent until being changed by something later on.

Also, by the way, slots work in FFG's Star Wars a little different than traditional initiative in table-top games. They don't belong to the individual who rolled them.

To clarify we'll go back to my example. Let's say that the NPC rolled the highest, then Jill, then Bill. The slots would be as follows:

NPC Slot rolled by merc.

PC Slot rolled by Jill

PC Slot rolled by Bill

In step 3, you assign characters to the slots. For the NPC it's easy; there's only the one. The merc takes his turn. Bill and Jill then discuss who should go and determine that since Jill is the better shot, Bill will go first to open the door and Jill will take the last slot.

NPC = NPC

PC = Bill

PC = Jill

Moving on past the example, during the turn two things happened to change the slot order. First, Bill's slot ended up behind Jill's (there's literally no real effect as they are both PC slots. Then, the NPC's slot ended up behind Bill's. So the new Slot order is as follows:

PC

PC

NPC

The slots will be filled again in the next round. Bill and Jill will discuss who takes the first one. The NPC of course has no choice as his is alone.

@OfficerZan

How would you reconcile a PC moving to fire through the door opened by the PC, while the NPC is waiting to shoot through the door as its opening?

As in if multiple readied actions are triggered by one trigger? I personally just go in the order of the readied actions.

So say, using the same example as before, that Jill went before Bill readied to fire through the door when Bill opened it. I would have the merc fire first as he readied first.

In D&D I had people roll initiative but in FFG's SW I find it bogged the flow too much. I played around with a few other ways but found that keeping readied order made the swapping around fairly simple when large numbers are involved.

EDIT:

I wanted to add that I also tried treating them as "simultaneous actions" while having the actual slot changes be in readied order but that complicated the narrative a little too much especially for new players so I recommend doing that only when important to plot or in groups very accustomed to narrative/cinematic games.

Yeah, I know the slots are shared, I was just curious how you changed the order, as the original order was NPC, PC, PC, and ended as PC, PC, NPC, and assumed that would carry over in that order the following round.

Otherwise I really like this idea.

Yeah, I know the slots are shared, I was just curious how you changed the order, as the original order was NPC, PC, PC, and ended as PC, PC, NPC, and assumed that would carry over in that order the following round.

Otherwise I really like this idea.

Yeah you assumed right. Sorry, I wanted to make sure you didn't think that I meant Bill was forced to go after Jill the next round.

Yeah, I know the slots are shared, I was just curious how you changed the order, as the original order was NPC, PC, PC, and ended as PC, PC, NPC, and assumed that would carry over in that order the following round.

Otherwise I really like this idea.

Yeah you assumed right. Sorry, I wanted to make sure you didn't think that I meant Bill was forced to go after Jill the next round.

No not at all

Just wanted to clarify if the Initiative Slot order remained changed in the following rounds, or was 'rebooted' to how it was when originally rolled.. (Which looking back, seems silly in the example, as it would give the NPCs the Last action in turn 1, and the First in round two.. which seems nasty)

It could become rather powerful though, as it allows players to almost 'charge' their actions for what they may know is coming.

Do you enforce players to choose their actions, and if said action is not suitable they loose it?

Yes, they must choose what action they wish to do and what triggers it, just like the actual Ready Action from 3.5. If the trigger never happens or the action becomes impossible then it's wasted. Keep in mind that the action is just that. A player who decides to Attack if the Door Opens doesn't need to specify his target, just the action.

Example of trigger never happening in my first example would be if Jill decided that she didn't want to move up to the door. Bill's readied action never gets triggered.

An example of the action being wasted even though triggered would be from my second example above. Let's say the merc decides not to ready an action, opting to instead hide and does so successfully. The door opens and Jill is faced with an attack without an enemy. Sure, she could blast an object or something but she couldn't change her action to movement instead.


Also, it is very powerful, but it's also more tactical, more realistic, and more deadly in addition without taking away from cinematic feel. Like I said, not for everyone, but I haven't found any issues thus far in relation to balance or play disruption. In fact I've found that allowing readied actions arguably add more to what FFG's system desperately needed. At least in relation to my groups' playstyles.



My favorite time that this enhanced gameplay is actually the first time that I came up with the houserule. When the party was trying to escape on a lift but was about to get TPK'd (regrettably) by a nade monkey (our term for enemies whole love throwing grenade type weapons) but my exile player asked if he could ready an action to Activate Force Power: Move with the trigger being, if an enemy threw something. I allowed it using my rulings above. The enemy threw the grenade, the player successfully caught with the force and returned to sender saving the party.

Now that is a pretty extreme example, but thought I'd share.

How would you resolve this?

If the NPC/PC groups are not engaged in combat take them out of structured time and put it into narrative play. Thus when the players enter the Cantina they roll Discipline v Cool and the ambush is sprung for good or for bad.

If you remain in combat where there is none, then the game gets all strange. The players can metagame the ambush coming, or the GM has to contrive a way to "spring" the ambush because mechanically the combat time doesn't make it work.

I have a question. What was the initiative order for the combat outside? Because after the pcs killed those on the outside you could likely just slip those inside the cantina into those previous slots that were previously occupied by the now dead NPCs?

An initiative roll was made for an ambush? Why would the PCs even get a roll if they were not aware of the pending ambush in the first place? I know there's Vigilance and Cool rolls to be made when being caught off guard, or not expecting aggression, but to be completely caught unaware (Failing to notice the ambush) in my opinion wouldn't have been even told to the PCs until the blasters started blazing. Then once the first reign of fire was done, it's initiative time.

Actually the initiative roll should always be made even in an ambush. The CRB specifically states on page 199 in the sidebar 'Cool or Vigilance' "Likewise, someone being ambushed would also use Vigilance to determine Initiative (and if they ended up going earlier in the Initiative order than their ambusher, clearly they were vigilant enough to spot the ambush at the last second)".

Actually the initiative roll should always be made even in an ambush. The CRB specifically states on page 199 in the sidebar 'Cool or Vigilance' "Likewise, someone being ambushed would also use Vigilance to determine Initiative (and if they ended up going earlier in the Initiative order than their ambusher, clearly they were vigilant enough to spot the ambush at the last second)".

Many people have issues with this..."What do you mean I lost initiative? We had an ambush!" Dice pools for Initiative checks can be modified as well, so we typically award a number of boost die depending on the amount of preparations going into the ambush as per the GM's discretion.

Many people have issues with this..."What do you mean I lost initiative? We had an ambush!" Dice pools for Initiative checks can be modified as well, so we typically award a number of boost die depending on the amount of preparations going into the ambush as per the GM's discretion.

Whilst I have no issue with the idea of awarding boost dice for preperations, the fact is that even the best laid ambush can fail.

Many people have issues with this..."What do you mean I lost initiative? We had an ambush!" Dice pools for Initiative checks can be modified as well, so we typically award a number of boost die depending on the amount of preparations going into the ambush as per the GM's discretion.

Whilst I have no issue with the idea of awarding boost dice for preperations, the fact is that even the best laid ambush can fail.

We have found that a boost die on your intitiative check is not all that powerful, and it's still hard to get the drop on a really skilled opponent.

Many people have issues with this..."What do you mean I lost initiative? We had an ambush!" Dice pools for Initiative checks can be modified as well, so we typically award a number of boost die depending on the amount of preparations going into the ambush as per the GM's discretion.

Whilst I have no issue with the idea of awarding boost dice for preperations, the fact is that even the best laid ambush can fail.

We have found that a boost die on your intitiative check is not all that powerful, and it's still hard to get the drop on a really skilled opponent.

Like I say, I have no issue with awarding boost dice. If the ambusher has planned well then it makes sense, my point was more that if the people you are trying to ambush have a high vigilance skill then they are obviously vigilant enough to potentially spot the ambush, More importantly, if the people doing the ambush have a lower cool skill then they are not going to be as good at staying out of sight.

Rise old post! XD

Hi mates!

I had the same doubt this days. I dealt with Initiative and holding actions like this:

First, I only roll Initiative once per "combat", not per round. If there is something that can alter the Initiative like an external explosion or the introduction of new facts (upcoming new minions, important strategy changes or other things) I let roll again.

About holding, well, considering that rounds aren't 6 secs (still dealing with the idea in my mind XD) and the actions occurs with "relative" simultaneity I let pick "prepared action" or "counter actions" only to players with higher Initiative. Here is the sample.

Imagine a Force user player with Move (High Initiative) and a droid with a missile tube (Low Initiative). Cinematically, I let the player use Move as if it was rolled on that precise moment. So, the Force User "cinematically" moved the missile against the droid when he launched it.

The one who has the initiative can shot the one who enters on the room looking for him because has the higher Initiative.

If the actions are "out of combat" and produced due an Stealth action, and the target doesn't Perceive it, there is no Initiative, just the action in that "ghost round".