So, the question: What are the most important things to keep in mind when flying against Falcons or Phantoms, and what would you suggest I fly that will handle itself adequately against either ship?

The context: I'm a relatively new X-wing player, and I'm looking to go to my first tournament in the next week or so. I've played a number of games, but have basically no experience flying against either falcons or phantoms, and so want to know what I should keep in mind while list-building so that I don't field a list that'll get torn apart regardless of how well I fly.

The fleet:
> a Core Set
> all of Wave 1
> none of Wave 2
> all of Wave 3
> all of Wave 4, barring a Tie Defender
> both Aces sets

I'd probably be able to get any one small-base ship if necessary.

My thoughts:

The way I see it is that against phantoms, you're going to want to be behind it as much as possible (shooting while not getting shot at, which is probably true of all ships, the phantom just being great at dealing damage). Dogfighting with someone like Soontir Fel would give you PS advantage over most phantoms, and being an interceptor, has great ability to reposition, and has 3 red dice to boot. Throw in PTL plus his ability, and he's in a great position to pile on the pain. Obviously turrets are also a great way to deal with them, but with only a Y-wing or a HWK to choose from, they're not particularly viable in my situation.

Against a falcon, (and I only just noted that ORS have a different stat line to the rest of the pilots. Is that unique?) while it can deal out the pain, with a turret, base 3 attack dice, and two possible crew, it can only shoot at one thing per turn. And while upgrades mitigate this slightly, it only has 1 green die. 2 or 3 turns of consistent damage from multiple sources could bring it down. However, with either a ton of upgrades to make it fat, or with an escort, it has the potential to chew through flimsy opponents.

My thoughts from above, taking turreted ships out of the equation, an imperial based list would have the best shot against a phantom based list (ignoring the phantom itself, having highly maneuverable, high damage output ships like interceptors and phantoms), but a rebel list (as they tend to be a little more durable) would fair better against a falcon.

Am I thinking along the right direction here?

I might as well suggest lists at the same time. Bear in mind I just threw these together on the spot, and are there more as a potential starting place for 'this is how you could do them better'.

Sample Imperial list:
Carnor Jax (26)
Push the Limit (3)

Kir Kanos (24)

"Howlrunner" (18)
Swarm Tactics (2)

"Winged Gundark" (15)

Total: 100 points

Sample Rebel list:
Wedge Antilles (29)
R2 Astromech (1)

Keyan Farlander (29)

Prototype Pilot (17)
Chardaan Refit (-2)

Biggs Darklighter (25)

Total: 99 points

Right now to deal with falcons and phantoms reliably you're going to want either a falcon, outrider, or decimator.

Decent flying skills and/or a hard counter (flechette Torps, stress bot, captive, Gunner-Luke) will do just fine.

You can't get behind Phantoms. They get behind you. That's why Falcons — and turrets in general — are used so much right now. They're Phantom counters, as their ability to fire 360 degrees eliminates the Phantom's maneuverability advantage.

But you have no Falcons, so you might want to consider flying Ion Cannon Turret on a Y-Wing. It would be easier if you had R2-D6 from the Rebel Transport set, which you can put on Horton so he can take Veteran Instincts so he can shoot before Whisper has a chance to use her cloaking device.

Meanwhile, I can't tell you what the key to killing a Fat Falcon is. I always lose to them. Throw a bunch of dice at them and hope the escorts have terrible rolls, I guess? Use Wedge or a ship with Outmaneuver to drop the Falcon's agility to 0, keeping it from using C-3PO, maybe?

Falcons get a guaranteed 2 evades (C3P0 + Falcon Title dodge) and a really silly 360 no brainer firing arc. The only good news is 1.) they're well over 40 points for what is still a single 3 attack ship 2.) they do not enjoy bumping since it removes their evade action 3.) they're not Dash Render (and probably won't take the crew variant because it takes up a valuable C3PO/Gunner slot) so asteroids suck. They eat high agility low hull ships (that normally arc dodge) for breakfeast, so don't bother until auto-thrusters come out.

The Phantom honestly I have not found to be a problem. Set up asteroids in a ring at the center of the table and you can basically dictate its de-cloak move.

The basic trick is shooting before it does because Whisper gets a Focus and a Cloak token after completing an attack (has to hit for focus). In order to accomplish this, you generally slap V.I on a PS 8/9 pilot or rock a PS 9 pilot with an initiative bid. After playing them a few times, you'll find that the straight de-cloak is very easy to predict (99% followed by a hard turn). Echo's the rub. I don't know where she's going even when I play her

At 4 hull and a maximum four agility, the phantom's not terribly impressive defensively. Once you wrap your head around de-cloak and start lining up shots, it'll go down relatively quickly (hilariously so if you have my luck with green dice). I've slapped them down with Farrel (VI, PTL, Proton Rockets, initiative) and Predator Wedge, and even one of three bandits that fanned out to catch Whisper post-cloak. After Wedge took out most of it, a Range 1 shot was basically a death sentence

Just to throw this in too, depending on the availability you may not see many Phantoms and Han's in your area and may see a lot of Dashs & Decimators instead.

Right now to deal with falcons and phantoms reliably you're going to want either a falcon, outrider, or decimator.

And that's what I hate about the game right now

Well... I'll let my Scum and Villainy Podcast buddy Theorist guide you through fighting the Falcon/Phantom Meta

F** Han — Fighting the Meta: Imperial Options

F** Han — Fighting the Meta: Rebel Options

The quick version?

You need PS 9+ with engine or a turret to most easily fight Phantoms

You need lots of fast guns or very big guns to fight Falcons.

Right now to deal with falcons and phantoms reliably you're going to want either a falcon, outrider, or decimator.

And that's what I hate about the game right now

Honestly, really haven't found this to be the case at all.

The only thing you need to reliably to deal with them is a couple bodies and a lot of practice.

In fact, flying the Phantom is the best way to learn how it flies and therefore to counter its shenanigans even with firing-arc dependent ships

Also, it's friggin fun !

Well... I'll let my Scum and Villainy Podcast buddy Theorist guide you through fighting the Falcon/Phantom Meta

F** Han — Fighting the Meta: Imperial Options

F** Han — Fighting the Meta: Rebel Options

The quick version?

You need PS 9+ with engine or a turret to most easily fight Phantoms

You need lots of fast guns or very big guns to fight Falcons.

This, basically.

The cheapest anti-phantom option that I commonly use in my arsenal is Turr Phennir with veteran instinct (a reasonnable 26 points). It is a serious threat vs Echo (moves after him, can barrel roll or boost out of arc after shooting) and with some practice, is a pain in the butt for Whisper as well (If he has initiative, he must guess where Turr will go, but if I do, I can shoot first and potentially arc dodge before he can even fire).

These days, I also tend to include a name defender in my build (still tweaking that) to deal with Falcons. When auto-thrusters show up, it will be a whole new ball game.

Well... I'll let my Scum and Villainy Podcast buddy Theorist guide you through fighting the Falcon/Phantom Meta

F** Han — Fighting the Meta: Imperial Options

F** Han — Fighting the Meta: Rebel Options

The quick version?

You need PS 9+ with engine or a turret to most easily fight Phantoms

You need lots of fast guns or very big guns to fight Falcons.

I don't remember when the prox mines errata came out, but I think these articles came up before it

Seriously, scimitar bombers w/mines care nothing for Phantom cloaking or maneuverability.

Less useful against Han because of dat durability, against which 3 naked dice won't cut it, but the mines do bypass C3PO and Evade

Counters to Phantoms (Echo and Whisper)

- anything with more initiative than they can get

- blocking their decloaks

- ion turrets

- 3-4 dice turrets with reroll/gunner/dice modification.

- anything that can tank them for a good number of turns

- anything dishing out stress tokens with no requirement to fire (in normal arc) at it

A good example would be a Fully loaded Han Solo

Or a Y-Wing with Ion turret and the Astromech that deals stress after firing

A bunch of cheap Z-95 with ion pulse missiles or the cheapest possible flechette torps carrier. Munitions Failsafe also helps... So does the pilot that always hits his missiles even if he doesn't

One very maneuvrable ship with either of those.

An imperial ship with Rebel captive (Phantom hates it!)

If you can either stress or ion a Phantom it has a big problem. If you can do both he's toast!

Counters to the (fat Han) Falcon

- Ships with tons of attack dice

- Howlrunner swarms (ships with multiple small attacks)

- Outmaneuver! He gets no dice to roll if not at R3 so no C3PO

- Autothrusters (soon...)

- Anything extremely hard to hit even with gunner and Han Solo. So Phantom or loaded Soontir...

- Anything that kills his escort and can run from the Falcon afterwards.

- Anything with huge HP pool as the Falcon is still one ship doing 2-3 damage on average per turn only

- Stuff that ignores evades

- Rebel captive on your key ship (he wil miss his action every turn if it's Han at least)

Examples would include Whisper with initiative bid, Howlrunner swarms, 3-4 Lambda shuttles with or without HLCs, bomber swarm with homing missiles.

Two ships that are particularly good vs. both Phantoms and Falcons are Luke and Corran Horn. Of the two, Corran Horn is the most effective but is by far the most expensive in points. The builds are:

Luke: R2D2 (or R5P9 if R2D2 is in use), Vet Ins, Engine Upgrade

Corran Horn: R2D2, Push the Limit, Engine Upgrade, Fire Control System, optional Flechette Torpedo

Vs Phantoms: Pair Corran Horn with Airen Cracken, to ensure that you can get a Phantom in arc (When Cracken shoots, he lets Horn Boost and/or Barrel Roll so he ends up pointing at the Phantom). A follow up shot with Flechettes makes the Phantom much more predictable next turn, but keeps Horn out of the action, so use it wisely if you do have it. Luke takes a high PS shot, flies past +boost while regenerating shields, and comes back for another pass.

Vs Falcons: Both of these ships can trade indefinitely with a Falcon if you are careful. Regenerating your shields lets you outlast the ridiculously evasive Falcon, just remember to run away and recharge if you lose more than 1 shield. Corran Horn's double tap lets him push a lot of damage past C3P0/R2D2 crew, just alternate turns of double tap and turtle. Time limits can make Luke non-viable, because you just don't have as much time to wear the Falcon away as you need unless you have put significant damage on in the early game, and the Falcon is worth more points.

Mix with whatever other ships you like. Y-Wings with ICT are very dangerous to Phantoms, and ionization can set up any ship for a brutal Corran Horn double tap. A bunch of Z-95s can push enough damage through on escorts to make the game a one on one affair. Used properly Biggs makes the whole affair last longer. Experiment and see what works.

Thanks for all the advice!

Some of it I can't make use of (i.e. use falcon, outrider, or decimator) as I have been unable to find a falcon. Following on from this, because I can't get any Slave-1 or Falcons, I don't have VI, EU.

I'm not expecting much in the way of Outriders and Decimators quite yet, due to availibility either.

It seems investigating ioning and stressing could be the way to go with what I have availible.

Falcon needs lots of dice pumped into it and isn't a fan of stress effects. Phantom you want to catch with its trousers down, which means pilot skill advantage and Roark Garnet. Decloak allows it to mitigate single stress after cloaking a bit although stressing it will hamper its maneuverability, giving you an advantage that's often difficult to actually see at work. Stress it before it cloaks or doublestress it and suddenly all your ships can shoot it with its trousers down.

No VI makes stressing it before it cloaks hard, so you're after doublestress. Your tools here are R3-A2 (Rebel Transport), Flechette Torpedo (E-wing, Rebel Transport) and Tactician (TIE phantom). B-wing/E2 can do Tactician/Flechette*, all rebel ships with astromech slots can do R3-A2/Flechette and for maximum reusability (although serious maneuverability issues) the Lambda-class Shuttle can do Tactician/Tactician*. Both the B-wing/E2 and Lambda can combine Tactician and Ion Cannon*, meaning it's stressed, gets no action, and you know exactly where its going. If you hit, of course. Luke Skywalker is popular for R3-A2 because of his tankiness: R3-A2 stresses you too and thus keeps you on your green dial if you're using it every turn.

*Firespray-31 and Decimator can do Tactician/Flechette, Decimator can do Tactician/Tactician or even Tactician/Tactician/Tactician and Firespray can do Tactician/Ion Cannon. I left them off because you explicitly said you don't have access to them.

Okay, so some sample builds:

Wedge Antilles (29)
Swarm Tactics / Decoy (2)
Flechette Torpedoes (2)
R2-D2 (4)

Gold Squadron Pilot (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)

Blue Squadron Pilot (22)
Ion Cannon (3)
Tactician (2)
B-Wing/E2 (1)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Total: 100

Wedge with either EPT shares around PS 9 to get the drop on Phantoms (at worst, it relies on initiative bid against a VI Whisper. Possibly you could reconfigure to drop a point for an initiative bid) It then has the ion/tactician b-wing, the ion turret on the Y-wing, and has a headhunter just to have a 4th ship on the floor.