Yes, I know, Martial arts other than Jedi and Sith don't really exist in the Star Wars universe, and yet... Let's say I want to use this system for other types of game...

I mean classical, real life, Martial Arts: Karate, Boxing, Krav Maga, an ofcourse armed Martial Arts as well- Philipino Arnis, Ninjitsu, 16th century fencing... the works.

So, how would you do it? Just using the skills as they are seems... meh, boring?

I'm thinking maybe as Universal Careers? It seems to make some sort of sense, after all...

Some other ideas maybe?

I would recommend a specialization (or more than 1) which focuses on the style. Check out Force and Destiny and how they do the lightsaber skills. They have 6 careers representing the 6 major styles. Each one allows a different characteristic to be used with the lightsaber skill, and has talents representing whether they are better defensively, offensively, etc. It would be tough to make the specialization balanced, though. Also, decide which career the specialization would best fit. For example Aikido would probably be a Hired Gun specialization, as it is fairly straightforward, high damage. Jujitsu might be a Smuggler specialization, specializing in redirection and throws.

Skill Monkey to the rescue!

The Skill Monkey has been watching some of his favorite Martial Arts movies.

So naturally it occurs to him to come up with his own school of martial arts and then share that info with you.

But how? Nothing in the book is labelled Martial Arts.

I guess you’ll just have ot listen and find out.

http://www.madadventurers.com/skill-monkey-hai-karate/

I would recommend a specialization (or more than 1) which focuses on the style. Check out Force and Destiny and how they do the lightsaber skills. They have 6 careers representing the 6 major styles. Each one allows a different characteristic to be used with the lightsaber skill, and has talents representing whether they are better defensively, offensively, etc. It would be tough to make the specialization balanced, though. Also, decide which career the specialization would best fit. For example Aikido would probably be a Hired Gun specialization, as it is fairly straightforward, high damage. Jujitsu might be a Smuggler specialization, specializing in redirection and throws.

Where can I get Force and Destiny from? I thought it's not out yet...

Where can I get Force and Destiny from? I thought it's not out yet...

Google to the rescue!

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Force-Destiny-Beta/dp/1616619910

Funny Away....

Just using the skills as they are seems... meh, boring?

If you feel that way, you're doing it wrong.

"Ok, I attack the Stormtroopers with my Wookiee Martial Arts! Behold the power of a Wrruushi Master! RAWR! (YYYYG vs PP+BLk = 5 Success, 3 Advantage) Ok I Hai-du-Rawr double punch the lead trooper for 11 Damage (5 success+5 Brawn+1 Wookiee Rage) crushing his armor and taking him out and follow through with a low spin-kick knocking the other troopers to the ground (2 Advantage to activate Knockdown on a regular brawl attack) and finish with a spot on return to the ready stance (1 Advantage to recover 1 strain)."

See? Using existing materials you can replicate martial arts through ranks in Brawn&Brawl, and mate that with trees that feature talents like What you'd find on the Hired Gun:Marauder tree. Frenzied Attack, Feral Strength, Lethal Blows are all "punchy." How you describe the results does the rest.

The right side of the Bounty Hunter:Assassin Tree works too if you want a sneakier, more "Ninja" type fighter.

If you wanted you certainly could make your own custom tree, but it's probably not going to look a heck of a lot different form the Marauder tree.

Well, Jedi and Sith are more like religions not martial arts. They essentially share fighting forms. Anyways, EU is littered with martial artists. Some are related to force traditions, others are just bad ass fighters.

Ghostofman hit the nail on the head with his post though so I'll try not to repeat too much.

Description is key. Being good at Brawl rolls could mean you hit hard and brutally (like Krav) or quick and sudden (like Kung-Fu). Maybe you have an amazing defense in addition and like to avoid attacks like crazy in addition (Aikido). Are there many talents and things that add their own unique flavor as a martial art? No, not really, but there doesn't need to be. Describe your attacks and abilities as part of your martial arts training.

I disagree with the "description is god" method. Martial arts are more than just Brawl&Brawn. They are what makes a fighter "different" from another fighter. Thing is, AoR sort of come with it's own "martial arts", sure that are called career specializations, and they are mostly firearm martial arts, but the basic idea stays: they are what makes you fight like you, and not like someone else.

So yeah, sure, descriptions are great and important, but there is a very good reason why White Wolf added Martial Arts to their New World of Darkness. Somone who fights using Krav Maga should feel different than somone using Karate. Not just Description-wise, but also mechanic wise.

So yeah, sure, descriptions are great and important, but there is a very good reason why White Wolf added Martial Arts to their New World of Darkness. Somone who fights using Krav Maga should feel different than somone using Karate. Not just Description-wise, but also mechanic wise.

With that in consideration, home brewing *is* always fun. I would give that Skill Monkey episode a listen (short, sweet, and entertaining), and if you truly feel something is missing from the game, just go ahead and make a few tweaks. Keying the Brawl skill off Agility or Willpower for the odd player will not break your game, and nor will tweaking a few talents this way or that. Personally, I'd steer clear of making a whole new specialization, but your mileage may vary.

I listened to Skill Monkey, I disagreed with him

I disagree with the "description is god" method. Martial arts are more than just Brawl&Brawn. They are what makes a fighter "different" from another fighter. Thing is, AoR sort of come with it's own "martial arts", sure that are called career specializations, and they are mostly firearm martial arts, but the basic idea stays: they are what makes you fight like you, and not like someone else.

So yeah, sure, descriptions are great and important, but there is a very good reason why White Wolf added Martial Arts to their New World of Darkness.

Now, mechanically speaking, what do you feed the "good reason" WoD has it's martial arts and how does that translate to Star Wars?

The WoD is a very very different setting. If you want to run a Blade inspired campaign, or something set in the East, or San Fransisco's Chinatown, or San Fransokyo then yes, Martial Arts is something you really should have. But that's setting and themes, not mechanics.

Somone who fights using Krav Maga should feel different than somone using Karate. Not just Description-wise, but also mechanic wise.

Ok, how so?

Just for comparison, in FaD there's a Lightsaber tree for each Career. Generally speaking though, every single tree is just a different organization of the same set of talents, with only two real differences. 1) A Talent near the top that allows you to use a different characteristic with your saber. 2) One or Two special attacks usually near the bottom of the tree.

And there's where I'm going. Trees like Marauder and Assassin can already largely support guys who can do amazing things with hand-to-hand. How does it need to be different? What would you change and how would those changes make the tree sufficiently different to require a different Career and/or Specialization?

I'm not picking on you, just from experience, I know there's a temptation to make things for games. It's cool and fun. But that temptation can also make you want to make things that really aren't needed, and may cause problems down the road. If you want to make a Martial Arts tree, go for it. But I think you'll get better results if you really beat up the idea first and distill it down to what's actually important and the mechanics behind it.

I think a tree focusing solely on unarmed combat could be fun and have a place. Lots of great talent names potentially but I still hold out hope for "Helicopter Arms" as may fav suggested so far in these forums.

In regards to different MA styles that would be overboard. Real hand to hand to the death generally devolves into strangulation matches on the ground at some point, the various styles of sporting fights require rules and referees to keep them effective in and of themselves.

Don't make the argument that because one system did something another should as well. What WoD does is interesting, but it's also a different system with different mechanics and thematic concerns. Not saying Martial arts as a specified tree is good or bad, just that saying "Simpsons did it!" will eventually get you in trouble.

Now, mechanically speaking, what do you feed the "good reason" WoD has it's martial arts and how does that translate to Star Wars?

The WoD is a very very different setting. If you want to run a Blade inspired campaign, or something set in the East, or San Fransisco's Chinatown, or San Fransokyo then yes, Martial Arts is something you really should have. But that's setting and themes, not mechanics.

I'm sorry, I thought that I wrote in the first line in my OP: " Let's say I want to use this system for other types of game... "

I see no reason to be bogged down by the Star Wars setting, and yes, I want to play around and see if and how I can use this system for other type of settings and themes. I'm sorry if for some reason I wasn't clear enough about that

So yeah, sure, descriptions are great and important, but there is a very good reason why White Wolf added Martial Arts to their New World of Darkness.

Don't make the argument that because one system did something another should as well. What WoD does is interesting, but it's also a different system with different mechanics and thematic concerns. Not saying Martial arts as a specified tree is good or bad, just that saying "Simpsons did it!" will eventually get you in trouble.

Now, mechanically speaking, what do you feed the "good reason" WoD has it's martial arts and how does that translate to Star Wars?

The WoD is a very very different setting. If you want to run a Blade inspired campaign, or something set in the East, or San Fransisco's Chinatown, or San Fransokyo then yes, Martial Arts is something you really should have. But that's setting and themes, not mechanics.

White Wolf sure does know how to make a Martial Arts game. They did a bang up job with the Street Fighter RPG.

It seems that conversations like this come up all the time in these games. Sure, the training required for boxing, karate, MMA, ect are all different. However, these games don't have the granularity to represent that. At the level of abstraction that we're at, they are the same in these games. All have ways to avoid being hit, so take Sidestep or Dodge. All have ways to hurt more, so take Frienzied Attack or whatever. At the end of the day, all Martial Arts are the same. Fist + face = pain.

I think a tree focusing solely on unarmed combat could be fun and have a place. Lots of great talent names potentially but I still hold out hope for "Helicopter Arms" as may fav suggested so far in these forums.

In regards to different MA styles that would be overboard. Real hand to hand to the death generally devolves into strangulation matches on the ground at some point, the various styles of sporting fights require rules and referees to keep them effective in and of themselves.

Would be interesting to see a grappling tree with Knockdown, Pin, and some way to throw. Make it more of a wrestler where Marauder is more of a boxer. Perhaps a Bounty Hunter who is good a subduing his targets to bring them back alive would be a good fit for this.

I think a tree focusing solely on unarmed combat could be fun and have a place. Lots of great talent names potentially but I still hold out hope for "Helicopter Arms" as may fav suggested so far in these forums.

In regards to different MA styles that would be overboard. Real hand to hand to the death generally devolves into strangulation matches on the ground at some point, the various styles of sporting fights require rules and referees to keep them effective in and of themselves.

Obviously if you're doing a non-Star-Wars setting, Force talents wouldn't be a thing, so it would just take some imagination on what to do with the Force, Force rating, Force talents, powers, etc.

It's best IMO to try and not reinvent the wheel. Look for ways to apply already-extant mechanics to the concept you're trying to produce, and re-skin where possible, tweak if necessary.

Just going to throw in my two creds, as always.

I currently have a character who was taught some Teras Kasi before her "friend" "disappeared". She has YYY (3 Brawn, 3 Brawl) as her base attack. I also took Marauder to give her some Brawl boosts. Point that I'm trying to make is that my single Brawl attack can be bolstered, altered, and changed. I can take Strain to give me Boost dice, I can use my Action or a Maneuver to fight more defensively and add Setback dice to enemy attacks.

Each of these options I have listed in a new Weapon slot on her character sheet, and each one is a style of Teras Kasi; Spitting Rawl, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragonsnake, so on. Each one lists its attack, damage, Defensive bonuses, so forth. When I use one, I describe precisely what my character is doing -- How she switches up her style and posture mid-fight, how I see my allies are all behind cover and I am not, making me the easy target, so I use one that grants enemies Setback dice and I describe her fluid movements in battle.

TL;DR: Yes, this is a cinematic system. Yes, it supports it perfectly. If you're looking for stat boosts to represents different arts, you're playing the wrong game. The system is already there. Connect the dots and make it happen.

The thing I have learned in my years of doing different fighting arts is. A punch is a punch is a punch. A kick is a kick is a kick. The Human body is pretty much the same for everyone and so while there are different styles and those styles have different things they do well. At the end of the day the difference between a different types of punches and throws and kicks are not that much. Go watch fight science sometime. You will find that the amount of force the different martial arts create don't really vary that much. Punches by the various arts do about the same. Kicks by the various arts do about the same. The difference between different martial arts really come down to description and whether they are strength based or agility based.

I disagree with the "description is god" method. Martial arts are more than just Brawl&Brawn. They are what makes a fighter "different" from another fighter.

True, but for the purposes of this game, and the way it's structured, these distinctions aren't as apparent. The only way to really do it would be Talent trees, but having a tree dedicated to a specific martial art would seem like a huge waste.

The reason it works in nWoD is because you can buy Merits as a standalone item, but Talent trees don't work that way. Maybe FFG will come up with Talent "mini-trees" that you can buy separately...

Nobody's brought up the Pressure Points talent? PP always makes it to the party when somebody asks about martial arts!

EDIT: heh, "pee-pee".

Wherez mah Echani martial arts?!?!?

Nobody's brought up the Pressure Points talent? PP always makes it to the party when somebody asks about martial arts!

EDIT: heh, "pee-pee".

I did post # 9.

The thing I have learned in my years of doing different fighting arts is. A punch is a punch is a punch. A kick is a kick is a kick. The Human body is pretty much the same for everyone and so while there are different styles and those styles have different things they do well. At the end of the day the difference between a different types of punches and throws and kicks are not that much. Go watch fight science sometime. You will find that the amount of force the different martial arts create don't really vary that much. Punches by the various arts do about the same. Kicks by the various arts do about the same. The difference between different martial arts really come down to description and whether they are strength based or agility based.

There's a line in the Dresden Files short story "Aftermath" (set immediately after Changes) and is from Karrin Murphy's POV.

During it, she makes mention during her internal dialogue that while she's highly proficient in a number of different martial arts, they all come down to the same basic thing: Exploiting the various weak points of the human body. A quick thumb to the eye is going to be just as disorientating to the target and potentially damaging as boxing someone's ears or a kidney shot or a knee to the pelvic region (which will work on targets of both genders as said area is very sensitive).

A spec that focuses primarily on hand-to-hand combat is probably as far into the realm of "martial arts" as FFG's system should go. Barring that, the Marauder spec does quite well, as does the Doctor with Pressure Point.

And she is right.

Has no one mentioned how awesome sharpshooter is for martial arts, a couple talents says choose any 1 combat skill (i.e. ranged light for one, brawl for the other) and then others apply to ever critical hit. Mix that with infiltrator and Kabam! Pow! Sure all you need at that point is the pressure point talent and you'd be nearly unstoppable. I had an NPC marauder built as a PC but with adversary three. Had soak 7, 23 wounds and 13 strain. She solo'd the party for 2 rounds. She almost gotten taken out by the PC with the least combative ability, a technician:mechanic/doctor with pressure points 2 yellow for brawl, and 4 ranks in medicine. First time he hit her was 8 points of strain. The next successful pressure point would of taken her down. Never underestimate the power of pressure point (except against droids who are immune to it).