I guess I should have said not easily accurately mathetically computed

I like Xizor and all, but "infinite" is stretching it just a little bit

Yeah it increases the jousting value but obviously isn't infinite. Strictly speaking to find the value you would have to re-derive the fundamental equations using a different set of differential equations.

...I majored in English

but carry on your excellent work, we all trust you to be correct at this point

There's no such thing as infinite jousting value unless a ship is invincible and takes zero damage.

If a ship wins the statistical battle against some generic foe, then increase the power of the generic foe until the two sides are even. The stronger the foe is required to kill the ship/squad, the higher the jousting value.

Im just wondering when everyone is done picking the StarViper over with theories and mathwing what will be the end result in the super StarViper list thats going to hold its own in the tourny scene?

Im just wondering when everyone is done picking the StarViper over with theories and mathwing what will be the end result in the super StarViper list thats going to hold its own in the tourny scene?

this sunday for me

Store Champs, baby!

I guess I should have said not easily accurately mathetically computed

I like Xizor and all, but "infinite" is stretching it just a little bit

Yeah it increases the jousting value but obviously isn't infinite. Strictly speaking to find the value you would have to re-derive the fundamental equations using a different set of differential equations.

...I majored in English

but carry on your excellent work, we all trust you to be correct at this point

There's no such thing as infinite jousting value unless a ship is invincible and takes zero damage.

If a ship wins the statistical battle against some generic foe, then increase the power of the generic foe until the two sides are even. The stronger the foe is required to kill the ship/squad, the higher the jousting value.

Well, I was being intentionally hyperbolic to make a point: if Xizor is never attacked by an opponent, then his ability does makes him invulnerable.

Of course it's more accurate to describe his ability as a strong incentive not to attack him, which means his jousting value according to your work doesn't actually change (I don't think...?) but he is virtually guaranteed to substantially outperform that estimate, because he gets so many more attacks than anyone would reasonably assume for a baseline StarViper.

The question I'd actually be more interested in answering is whether avoiding him and attacking his support is the right choice. That is, if you assume a duty cycle of 100% for his ability and subtract a hit from each, what's his jousting value? The naive/back-of-the-envelope answer is that 3 focused attack dice against 3 unfocused defense dice does 1.22 damage per attack, for an average of 4.1 attacks to kill him; a 100% duty cycle on his ability turns that into 10.2 attacks (dealing, on average, 7.4 damage to his escorts). If he's accompanied by 5 Binayre Pirates, That means 8.3 more attacks to kill the escorts, meaning it takes about 18.5 attacks in total to kill the whole list. That's as compared to about 17.2 attacks to kill the list if you start with the escorts.

But I wonder what a more sophisticated analysis (which I haven't done, and don't have time to do right now) would reveal.

Im just wondering when everyone is done picking the StarViper over with theories and mathwing what will be the end result in the super StarViper list thats going to hold its own in the tourny scene?

this sunday for me

Store Champs, baby!

Awsome, Hope you will share the results of your list. Im not going anywhere any time soon im snowed in at the moment.

So my only entertainment is looking at all my S&V ships and looking on the forums for some list ideas.

Im just wondering when everyone is done picking the StarViper over with theories and mathwing what will be the end result in the super StarViper list thats going to hold its own in the tourny scene?

this sunday for me

Store Champs, baby!

Awsome, Hope you will share the results of your list. Im not going anywhere any time soon im snowed in at the moment.

So my only entertainment is looking at all my S&V ships and looking on the forums for some list ideas.

yeah it's snowing here too. Hope it does not intervene with our schedule

I'll be running either Xizor's exterminators most likely, but if there is an over-representation of scum I'm afraid I'll have to go back to my first love (Stress Wess )

Of course it's more accurate to describe his ability as a strong incentive not to attack him, which means his jousting value according to your work doesn't actually change (I don't think...?) but he is virtually guaranteed to substantially outperform that estimate, because he gets so many more attacks than anyone would reasonably assume for a baseline StarViper.

The question I'd actually be more interested in answering is whether avoiding him and attacking his support is the right choice. That is, if you assume a duty cycle of 100% for his ability and subtract a hit from each, what's his jousting value? The naive/back-of-the-envelope answer is that 3 focused attack dice against 3 unfocused defense dice does 1.22 damage per attack, for an average of 4.1 attacks to kill him; a 100% duty cycle on his ability turns that into 10.2 attacks (dealing, on average, 7.4 damage to his escorts). If he's accompanied by 5 Binayre Pirates, That means 8.3 more attacks to kill the escorts, meaning it takes about 18.5 attacks in total to kill the whole list. That's as compared to about 17.2 attacks to kill the list if you start with the escorts.

But I wonder what a more sophisticated analysis (which I haven't done, and don't have time to do right now) would reveal.

Well, lets start by discounting the targeting priority advantage that your opponent gets from attacking Xizor (glass cannon) over the Z's (neutral), since with his ability he will take longer to kill anyway. Lets just estimate that all of the increase in the squad's overall durability goes straight to Xizor and use that to come up with a new jousting value. Quick and dirty method #1.

So lets use your #'s of a 7% increase in overall squad durability. My numbers have a StarViper durability as 1.57.

So: 1.57 + x + 5*1 = 1.07*(1.57 + 5*1)

x = 0.46

New Xizor durability = 1.57 + 0.46 = 2.03.

His attack is worth about 1.7, so this tells us something interesting: with his ability he is more of a tank than a glass cannon, so your opponent would be better off attacking the Z-95's anyway. But lets go with it.

new combat power = 2.03*1.7 = 3.45

PS1 JV =~ 23.7, vs 20.7 stock. Accounting for PS7 w/ EPT (but no pilot ability value since it is inherently computed), that's worth about 23*(1 + 7/24)= 29.7 points. He actually costs 31 points, so pays a 1 point tax for his accommodations (dial, actions, etc). That seems reasonable. Of course if your opponent wisely avoids shooting at Xizor in the first place, then it doesn't help you any.

So, is there an escort build, that can invert the targeting priority? Or make him worth more?

So, is there an escort build, that can invert the targeting priority? Or make him worth more?

depends on how you build xizor himself, but I could imagine naked Scyks being annoying since they're targeting the same agility. Problem is they make for risky ability targets due to limited health. Laetin would definitely force shots because I can't imagine anyone wanting to shoot him even more than Xizor.

Ideally, though, you don't want Xizor being shot. If Xizor's not being shot at, you get to do really dumb but really rewarding things with him

So, is there an escort build, that can invert the targeting priority? Or make him worth more?

depends on how you build xizor himself, but I could imagine naked Scyks being annoying since they're targeting the same agility. Problem is they make for risky ability targets due to limited health. Laetin would definitely force shots because I can't imagine anyone wanting to shoot him even more than Xizor.

Ideally, though, you don't want Xizor being shot. If Xizor's not being shot at, you get to do really dumb but really rewarding things with him

The way I see it, EVERY time your opponent has a shot on Xizor and shoots a Y or whatever instead, you're getting his ability's worth.

2 builds:

[37] Xizor, VI, FCS, AT, Virago

[21] Thug, ABT, Unhinged x3

-

[41] Xizor, PTL, AdvS, InDamp, AT, Virago

[21] Thug, ABT, Unhinged x2

[16] BSS, HotShot

second is basically a convenience build, requires only 1MW+1SV packs of the new stuff, and has a point free for init or MF on the BSS

in practice, multiple ABTs w/Unhinged are antithetical to Fat Han (can only regen via r2, wasting the 4pt 3P0+MF), Interceptors/A-wings (ignore AT and high AGI), and Phantoms (ignore AGI). Now, they're not always going to manage r1, but that's why you run multiples and use them like a running minefield.

They keep up with Xizor, so they usually get shot first rather than opponents trying to punch Xizor's 3+AT, but it takes a while to get through 24/20 HP, and because they don't need to keep arcs, they can often shoot past a ship's final position in such a way that the opponent can't correct into his arcs.

Q: Is the star viper overpriced points wise?

A: YES

That is the simplistic answer. But lets look at why. The tie interceptor which it is oft compared to has a vastly superior dial. A saber squad pilot w/PtL is vastly superior to a base starviper and costs a point less. A number of cheaper more effective options exist that cost 25 points or less for a scum example you have

I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I had a crazy idea a while back. The goal is to find a way to give your opponent a reason to shoot at Xizor. Maybe make him a little expensive and increase his offense a bit, while decreasing his defense. You guessed it. But bear with me here.

Prince Xizor

++Expose

++Virago

++FCS or Adv Sensors

++Dead Man's Switch

++Experimental Interface

I know. CRAZY!!!

Give him a lot of offense, so much that he's potentially quite a threat. Then, reduce his agility slightly. Reducing his high agility makes him a more attractive target, as you are more likely to damage him as well as his ally. Also, he will often attack with 4 dice, five at R1, typically also with a Focus, and with FCS, often also with a Target Lock.

Terrible? Likely. Or, it just might give your opponent the incentive he needs to attack his majesty instead of his minions.

-------------------------------- Ship efficiencies -------------------------------

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

Ship name absolute | PS1 | ttl eff | std | range | req eff

PS1 StarViper 25 | 25 | ????% | 82.6% | 81.1% - 84% | 141.2%

PS3 StarViper 27 | 24.9 | ????% | 82.9% | 81.3% - 84.3% | 162.3%

Guri² 30 | 22.8 | ????% | 90.5% | 88.8% - 92% | 196.2%

Prince Xizor¹ 31 | 23 | ????% | 89.8% | 88.1% - 91.4% | 207.9%

For now just a quick and dirty assumption for the named abilities: treating Xizor's ability as worth 1 point, and Guri's as 2.

The bottom line on the generics is they need to do 41% more damage beyond their stat line to break even. Is the dial really that good? Maybe, but probably not.

How does that The PS1 jousting efficiency compare? It is:

• On par with A-wings, before Refit came along.
• Or naked Y-wings.
• It's well below Alpha Squadron Pilots' jousting efficiency of ~89.4%.
• It's almost identical to the Firespray's 82.6% (that's a weird comparison).

if you're jousting with this ship, you've already lost

-------------------------------- Ship efficiencies -------------------------------

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

Ship name absolute | PS1 | ttl eff | std | range | req eff

PS1 StarViper 25 | 25 | ????% | 82.6% | 81.1% - 84% | 141.2%

PS3 StarViper 27 | 24.9 | ????% | 82.9% | 81.3% - 84.3% | 162.3%

Guri² 30 | 22.8 | ????% | 90.5% | 88.8% - 92% | 196.2%

Prince Xizor¹ 31 | 23 | ????% | 89.8% | 88.1% - 91.4% | 207.9%

For now just a quick and dirty assumption for the named abilities: treating Xizor's ability as worth 1 point, and Guri's as 2.

The bottom line on the generics is they need to do 41% more damage beyond their stat line to break even. Is the dial really that good? Maybe, but probably not.

How does that The PS1 jousting efficiency compare? It is:

• On par with A-wings, before Refit came along.
• Or naked Y-wings.
• It's well below Alpha Squadron Pilots' jousting efficiency of ~89.4%.
• It's almost identical to the Firespray's 82.6% (that's a weird comparison).

if you're jousting with this ship, you've already lost

Well, that's the idea. Juggler's just calculating the efficiency of the ship's stats per cost and then determining how many points of "damage" they have to inflict to be worth their cost.

This doesn't make ships like Han solo awful, it just means that you have to do a lot of work with them to justify it's points. With Han, it's pretty dang easy because of his innate advantages (stupid turrets) but with the generic Starvipers it may be a tall order.

Well, that's the idea. Juggler's just calculating the efficiency of the ship's stats per cost and then determining how many points of "damage" they have to inflict to be worth their cost.

This doesn't make ships like Han solo awful, it just means that you have to do a lot of work with them to justify it's points. With Han, it's pretty dang easy because of his innate advantages (stupid turrets) but with the generic Starvipers it may be a tall order.

The way I see it, EVERY time your opponent has a shot on Xizor and shoots a Y or whatever instead, you're getting his ability's worth.

That depends. Naked Xizor is only a slight glass cannon. If you surround him with even bigger glass cannons, like Y-wings with ICT + BTL-A4, then you might as well shoot the escorts anyway. Scum doesn't have a lot of viable tanks to choose from yet. Z-95's are neutral and that's about it.

-------------------------------- Ship efficiencies -------------------------------

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

Ship name absolute | PS1 | ttl eff | std | range | req eff

PS1 StarViper 25 | 25 | ????% | 82.6% | 81.1% - 84% | 141.2%

PS3 StarViper 27 | 24.9 | ????% | 82.9% | 81.3% - 84.3% | 162.3%

Guri² 30 | 22.8 | ????% | 90.5% | 88.8% - 92% | 196.2%

Prince Xizor¹ 31 | 23 | ????% | 89.8% | 88.1% - 91.4% | 207.9%

For now just a quick and dirty assumption for the named abilities: treating Xizor's ability as worth 1 point, and Guri's as 2.

The bottom line on the generics is they need to do 41% more damage beyond their stat line to break even. Is the dial really that good? Maybe, but probably not.

How does that The PS1 jousting efficiency compare? It is:

• On par with A-wings, before Refit came along.
• Or naked Y-wings.
• It's well below Alpha Squadron Pilots' jousting efficiency of ~89.4%.
• It's almost identical to the Firespray's 82.6% (that's a weird comparison).

if you're jousting with this ship, you've already lost

That is correct. More specifically, if you're not doing 41% more damage than your statline expects, then you have already lost. This corresponds to making your opponents lose 1 - 1/1.41 = 29% of their shots while you retain 100% of your shots, and also assuming the same action economy on both sides (unrealistic with the S-loops that you will need to be pulling to make this happen).

The Viper has a great bar, 4 hull points and shield, three attack and three defense and yet somehow it still feels kind of overpriced to me. If the Vigoes were able to take an EPT I'd be more happy, but maybe that's in the works.

The Viper has a great bar, 4 hull points and shield, three attack and three defense and yet somehow it still feels kind of overpriced to me. If the Vigoes were able to take an EPT I'd be more happy, but maybe that's in the works.

I wouldn't hold my breath. A PS 5 "royal guard" variant, maybe, but the generic 3 is not getting ****.

the minimum PS across all scum EPT bearers is 5. I have no idea why. Maybe bodyguard would be OP?

The Viper has a great bar, 4 hull points and shield, three attack and three defense and yet somehow it still feels kind of overpriced to me. If the Vigoes were able to take an EPT I'd be more happy, but maybe that's in the works.

I wouldn't hold my breath. A PS 5 "royal guard" variant, maybe, but the generic 3 is not getting ****.

the minimum PS across all scum EPT bearers is 5. I have no idea why. Maybe bodyguard would be OP?

LOL

Yeah, have a green die for the price of a focus. That's not OP that's desperation.

have you tested the versatility and mobility of Xizor + VI + Adv Sensors + Autothrusters?

That thing with the Segnor Loop is amazing, and also if you move it the first one or two "joust" turns near a pair of your ships it is very difficult to take down

So sad tidings

Not exactly bringing Xizor + exterminators to the Store Champ because I found their hard counter: ******* Aggressor. While not nearly as infuriating as ******* turrets (you can actually counterplay them!) they're just made to **** with the list. Too much health to feedback, too much dice to get through. It's just really depressing, legitimately "why am I even playing?" levels of depressing.

Now Xizor himself was a badass. I can confirm that Predator + Sensors is 100% the way to go in terms of sheer flexibility (no green maneuver limitations, no obstructions/blocking to deny actions, hits very hard) and, of course, his ability meant he never got shot (his natural 3 green dice, ability, and possible auto-thrusters means you can afford to go offensive, which he needs to do anyway to make his points at). Problem is, even flinging out 3-4 hits each turn, he could barely get an Aggressor past its shields with all the focus + evade tomfoolery. Since the Zs where doing literally jack and ****, he was just left hanging.

Back to the drawing board, I suppose. I doubt Thug Ys will do much better against aggressor mobility, but maybe they'll throw enough dice to maybe do a single **** point of damage. At least, having arcs makes it so ionizing an aggressor actually pays off. There's enough room for two and a pirate with feedback, which just makes me sad because that card is my favorite thing in scum but FFG had to go and release a ship that it is simultaneously perfect and worthless against.

Played a couple of games last night using the star viper. My favorite build was Guri with advanced sensors, inertial dampeners, autothrusters and whatever EPT you like. I used VI, which turned out to be useless because I was up against corran horn and some generics, but then again I saved on points and squeezed a Z-95 into my list.

With advanced sensors the mobility is real. One trick I used was boost then S-loop, ended up in perfect shot position and away from Corran Horn's arc. Guri's ability is great because I could use my action for mobility and still usually have something to modify my shot.

Now tried some starviper and made some lists...

I have a lot of faith in MJ and Mathwing. They have given us some great insights. Currently however, with my initial real-life testing, the Starviper is holding up strong.

My build is 27: PS1 + AT

The S-loop, AT, being able to control range and engage slowly off a side, the amount of hull and green dice make it seem like a viable option. Also the dial is quite nice.

All of this allows you a high chance of achieving the 41% more than statline you need. Or as some have called it: the magic to overcome the statline.

Xizor is cheap enough that he can be nicely upgraded and fitted into many different types of lists. The variation in loadout is also quite high. AT is pretty much an auto include though.

Three lists for Starvipers:

So sad tidings

Not exactly bringing Xizor + exterminators to the Store Champ because I found their hard counter: ******* Aggressor. While not nearly as infuriating as ******* turrets (you can actually counterplay them!) they're just made to **** with the list. Too much health to feedback, too much dice to get through. It's just really depressing, legitimately "why am I even playing?" levels of depressing.

Now Xizor himself was a badass. I can confirm that Predator + Sensors is 100% the way to go in terms of sheer flexibility (no green maneuver limitations, no obstructions/blocking to deny actions, hits very hard) and, of course, his ability meant he never got shot (his natural 3 green dice, ability, and possible auto-thrusters means you can afford to go offensive, which he needs to do anyway to make his points at). Problem is, even flinging out 3-4 hits each turn, he could barely get an Aggressor past its shields with all the focus + evade tomfoolery. Since the Zs where doing literally jack and ****, he was just left hanging.

Back to the drawing board, I suppose. I doubt Thug Ys will do much better against aggressor mobility, but maybe they'll throw enough dice to maybe do a single **** point of damage. At least, having arcs makes it so ionizing an aggressor actually pays off. There's enough room for two and a pirate with feedback, which just makes me sad because that card is my favorite thing in scum but FFG had to go and release a ship that it is simultaneously perfect and worthless against.

Sorry, can you tell us what the double IG list was? I know they're all over but I wanna know what the proven ones are.

So sad tidings

Not exactly bringing Xizor + exterminators to the Store Champ because I found their hard counter: ******* Aggressor. While not nearly as infuriating as ******* turrets (you can actually counterplay them!) they're just made to **** with the list. Too much health to feedback, too much dice to get through. It's just really depressing, legitimately "why am I even playing?" levels of depressing.

Now Xizor himself was a badass. I can confirm that Predator + Sensors is 100% the way to go in terms of sheer flexibility (no green maneuver limitations, no obstructions/blocking to deny actions, hits very hard) and, of course, his ability meant he never got shot (his natural 3 green dice, ability, and possible auto-thrusters means you can afford to go offensive, which he needs to do anyway to make his points at). Problem is, even flinging out 3-4 hits each turn, he could barely get an Aggressor past its shields with all the focus + evade tomfoolery. Since the Zs where doing literally jack and ****, he was just left hanging.

Back to the drawing board, I suppose. I doubt Thug Ys will do much better against aggressor mobility, but maybe they'll throw enough dice to maybe do a single **** point of damage. At least, having arcs makes it so ionizing an aggressor actually pays off. There's enough room for two and a pirate with feedback, which just makes me sad because that card is my favorite thing in scum but FFG had to go and release a ship that it is simultaneously perfect and worthless against.

Sorry, can you tell us what the double IG list was? I know they're all over but I wanna know what the proven ones are.

They're not proven so much as still being tinkered with.

Variants B and C are set in stone, Advanced Sensors are a must, HLCs are heavily favored. The rest is PTL + Dampeners or Handling + Thrusters.

There's a big discussion locally about PTL's effectiveness. You really can't use it without sensor green maneuver and expect to not severely limit your next turn, but it makes you almost impossible to get through. Without both focus + evade, I think Xizor might've been able to down one.

The other variant is expert handling. While the TL component never came through (never going to target-lock with predator Xizor or sh*tty Zs ) barrel-roll is just ridiculous. Same idea, though, you want to abuse it with an advanced sensor green. IG-88B takes care of the lack of offensive EPT and C is still good for when you boost (Which you will a lot on arced ships), EH is just there for the added flexibility. I was counting the auto-thruster triggers, but the green dice were so hot that they only came into place once. Believe you me, though, between boost and segnors/k, large base displacement, and HLCs you're getting your money's worth even without turrets in play.