2 points less than an E-Wing, which has the same HP, agility and attack at the same PS.

A good indication of what the generic e-wing should cost.

The dial is really nice. Xizor + Adv Sensors + Outmaneuver + Autothrusters?

I think the price point is really reasonable, and exactly what I anticipated. Not to mention it's movement is great: the compromise of loosing the 3 Turn is gaining the 1 Turn? Heck yes! I'll take that trade any day! I've even been thinking of throwing torpedoes on them they're so good. Guri is just begging to put an Advanced Torpedo on her when she has PtL.

2 points less than an E-Wing, which has the same HP, agility and attack at the same PS.

A good indication of what the generic e-wing should cost.

The generic E-wing has a system slot and astromech. the starviper has to pay 1 point for its system slot and the generic star viper can't take it.

The dial is really nice. Xizor + Adv Sensors + Outmaneuver + Autothrusters?

Does Xizor need Autothrusters though? Surely you want Xizor to be shot at so he can fob damage off and spread injures across your whole squad? Discouraging shots at him is working against his ability a bit.

Now Guri, that's a Viper I definitely approve of.

The E-wing is overcosted by 3 points, and the Defender by about 2 points, so comparing the generic StarViper to those ships will artificially make it look like a "good deal", but only compared to ships that never see competitive use.

A better way to think of it, would be:

If you could take the StarViper's dial, upgrades, and action bar, and give that to the A-wing instead, would that make it worth taking a PS1 A-wing for 17 points?

If yes, then the StarViper is costed about right. If no, then it is overcosted.

-------------------------------- Ship efficiencies -------------------------------

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

Ship name absolute | PS1 | ttl eff | std | range | req eff

PS1 StarViper 25 | 25 | ????% | 82.6% | 81.1% - 84% | 141.2%

PS3 StarViper 27 | 24.9 | ????% | 82.9% | 81.3% - 84.3% | 162.3%

Guri² 30 | 22.8 | ????% | 90.5% | 88.8% - 92% | 196.2%

Prince Xizor¹ 31 | 23 | ????% | 89.8% | 88.1% - 91.4% | 207.9%

For now just a quick and dirty assumption for the named abilities: treating Xizor's ability as worth 1 point, and Guri's as 2.

The bottom line on the generics is they need to do 41% more damage beyond their stat line to break even. Is the dial really that good? Maybe, but probably not.

How does that The PS1 jousting efficiency compare? It is:

• On par with A-wings, before Refit came along.
• Or naked Y-wings.
• It's well below Alpha Squadron Pilots' jousting efficiency of ~89.4%.
• It's almost identical to the Firespray's 82.6% (that's a weird comparison).

I been playing around with the s-loop vs the k-turn, and it think there's no rason to price them differently. So, it doesn't need a cost bump, a better comparison is the defender paying more for the white k turn, a ship would probably pay more for a white s-loop. The viper also doesn't have both k-turn and s-loop options, which IMO would be quite powerful.

The k turn, let's you start tailing a ship, if you can end behind one, the s-loop will give a turn option to escape the tail, though it will be a guess without stay on target. S-loop direction is also predictable if there are asteroids about. K turn also lets you cross a small block of ships, where an s-loop may run into one of the block.

On the other hand, the s-loop changes your angle, and can arc dodge an opponents k-turn, and the direction will often be a 50/50 matchup so can be harder to block, where blocking a k-turn is a matter of distance only. The turn also means that if the k turn is blocked, the viper can pull a fast turn and end up out of arc of the blocker after it pulls a k turn, so it's occasionally in a better position than the k-turn after being blocked.

I think they both have advantages and disadvantages, so it's quite difficult to say which is generally better, but you can say which is situationally better...

The s-loop gives you 2 options, so harder to block, harder to predict.

Really? It's dial is fantastic, and just look at those stats! I bet the financial price hike is there to help deter players from getting four

The s-loop gives you 2 options, so harder to block, harder to predict.

The s-loop gives you 2 options, so harder to block, harder to predict.

Not really any different from the current ships with multiple k-turns. If anything, it brings new challenges. It's going to be somewhat easy for a mobile ship to park itself where it both blocks one loop location while putting the other into arc.

Looking at the example it actually looks easier. If the target banks left or right you'll still have them in your site. I little trickier of the hard turn since they could bump.

Virago title + Advanced Sensors makes this dial insane.

Try it with Stay on Target or Push the Limit as well.

The B-Wing invented hypermobility, but this thing can actually sustain it.

Looks competitively priced to me.

The E-wing is overcosted by 3 points, and the Defender by about 2 points, so comparing the generic StarViper to those ships will artificially make it look like a "good deal", but only compared to ships that never see competitive use.

A better way to think of it, would be:

If you could take the StarViper's dial, upgrades, and action bar, and give that to the A-wing instead, would that make it worth taking a PS1 A-wing for 17 points?

If yes, then the StarViper is costed about right. If no, then it is overcosted.

I don't know where you play, but every store championship I have gone to this year e-wings have been very prevalent

The base star vipers make really good filler ships. I ran Kath with Mangler Cannon, pust the limit, and inertial dampners with 2 scrun star vipers both with autothrusters last night and the star vipers performed better than I expected them to. The fact that they have both boost and barrel roll makes them insanely manuervable.

The E-wing is overcosted by 3 points, and the Defender by about 2 points, so comparing the generic StarViper to those ships will artificially make it look like a "good deal", but only compared to ships that never see competitive use.

A better way to think of it, would be:

If you could take the StarViper's dial, upgrades, and action bar, and give that to the A-wing instead, would that make it worth taking a PS1 A-wing for 17 points?

If yes, then the StarViper is costed about right. If no, then it is overcosted.

I don't know where you play, but every store championship I have gone to this year e-wings have been very prevalent

Have they been uploading their results to List Juggler?

www.starwarsclubhouse.com

I was referring to the generic PS1 and PS3 E-wings, not Corran Horn. Incidentally I have revised my generic Defender cost adjustment closer to 3 points as well.

The base star vipers make really good filler ships. I ran Kath with Mangler Cannon, pust the limit, and inertial dampners with 2 scrun star vipers both with autothrusters last night and the star vipers performed better than I expected them to. The fact that they have both boost and barrel roll makes them insanely manuervable.

I'm sticking with my assessment (in other threads) that the generic StarVipers are overcosted by about 2 points. We'll know for sure in another month or so after the wave 6 meta settles down a little. Regional results should be pretty telling. For now all we have to go on are a single week of Store Championships and the Team Covenant Aces league, neither of which has seen much in the way of generic StarVipers.

-------------------------------- Ship efficiencies -------------------------------

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

Ship name absolute | PS1 | ttl eff | std | range | req eff

PS1 StarViper 25 | 25 | ????% | 82.6% | 81.1% - 84% | 141.2%

PS3 StarViper 27 | 24.9 | ????% | 82.9% | 81.3% - 84.3% | 162.3%

Guri² 30 | 22.8 | ????% | 90.5% | 88.8% - 92% | 196.2%

Prince Xizor¹ 31 | 23 | ????% | 89.8% | 88.1% - 91.4% | 207.9%

For now just a quick and dirty assumption for the named abilities: treating Xizor's ability as worth 1 point, and Guri's as 2.

The bottom line on the generics is they need to do 41% more damage beyond their stat line to break even. Is the dial really that good? Maybe, but probably not.

How does that The PS1 jousting efficiency compare? It is:

• On par with A-wings, before Refit came along.
• Or naked Y-wings.
• It's well below Alpha Squadron Pilots' jousting efficiency of ~89.4%.
• It's almost identical to the Firespray's 82.6% (that's a weird comparison).

Sad that it looks so inefficient

On the topic of Xizor, though, it's incredibly difficult to "price" his ability because it has a gigantic psychological component. Your opponent will almost never shoot Xizor unless you're pairing him with stealth device Scyks or something, because they're almost always going to be getting more damage off on his squad mates. This generally gives you free range to do crazy ****, which has a value that we cannot easily mathematically compute.

Now we all know by now that math-winging is an estimate of value based on raw stats per price, but I thought I'd point it out given how criminally (heh) underestimated Xizor seems to be on these forums

On the topic of Xizor, though, it's incredibly difficult to "price" his ability because it has a gigantic psychological component. Your opponent will almost never shoot Xizor unless you're pairing him with stealth device Scyks or something, because they're almost always going to be getting more damage off on his squad mates. This generally gives you free range to do crazy ****, which has a value that we cannot easily mathematically compute.

Sure you can: jousting efficiency is, conceptually, a measure of how much offense it contributes before it dies. (MajorJuggler normalizes that to a TIE fighter's offense.) That means the jousting efficiency of a ship that's never attacked is literally infinite.

The answer to the question posed in the thread title, even given MJ's evaluation, is "probably a little bit, but not very". Generic A-wings were marginal pre-Refit, but not unplayable. Firesprays are far from unplayable. You probably shouldn't try to run 4x Black Sun Enforcer, but if you have 25 points left in your list it's not going to doom you to add a single Enforcer instead of two Binayre Pirates.

On the topic of Xizor, though, it's incredibly difficult to "price" his ability because it has a gigantic psychological component. Your opponent will almost never shoot Xizor unless you're pairing him with stealth device Scyks or something, because they're almost always going to be getting more damage off on his squad mates. This generally gives you free range to do crazy ****, which has a value that we cannot easily mathematically compute.

Sure you can: jousting efficiency is, conceptually, a measure of how much offense it contributes before it dies. (MajorJuggler normalizes that to a TIE fighter's offense.) That means the jousting efficiency of a ship that's never attacked is literally infinite.

I guess I should have said not easily accurately mathetically computed

I like Xizor and all, but "infinite" is stretching it just a little bit

On the topic of Xizor, though, it's incredibly difficult to "price" his ability because it has a gigantic psychological component. Your opponent will almost never shoot Xizor unless you're pairing him with stealth device Scyks or something, because they're almost always going to be getting more damage off on his squad mates. This generally gives you free range to do crazy ****, which has a value that we cannot easily mathematically compute.

Now we all know by now that math-winging is an estimate of value based on raw stats per price, but I thought I'd point it out given how criminally (heh) underestimated Xizor seems to be on these forums

Yeah, Xizor wants to be kitted out as a glass cannon and surrounded by tanks (or at least attack:durability neutral ships). The jousting value assumes there is no obvious target priority for your attacker; i.e. every ship in your squad sits at the same spot on the glass cannon vs tank scale.

The answer to the question posed in the thread title, even given MJ's evaluation, is "probably a little bit, but not very". Generic A-wings were marginal pre-Refit, but not unplayable. Firesprays are far from unplayable. You probably shouldn't try to run 4x Black Sun Enforcer, but if you have 25 points left in your list it's not going to doom you to add a single Enforcer instead of two Binayre Pirates.

A single 2 points won't doom you in any list, but if it doesn't provide a compelling value then once things settle down it probably won't see much use either, at least at the more competitive levels. I think the direct competitor to the 25 point StarViper is the 25 point PS2 Thug + ICT + R4. I have a hard time justifying a PS1 Starviper at 25 points over the 25 point Warthog, in any list, ever. If it was 23 points, then you would add the autothrusters kicker on to even it up at 25 points, and then you would have to make some interesting choices.

That said I bought 4, so you know I'll have to try 4x of them at some point.

I guess I should have said not easily accurately mathetically computed

I like Xizor and all, but "infinite" is stretching it just a little bit

Yeah it increases the jousting value but obviously isn't infinite. Strictly speaking to find the value you would have to re-derive the fundamental equations using a different set of differential equations.

I flew a couple generics in a game and was not impressed. Xizor doesn't seem to great either, to be honest. Guri doesn't look bad, and I'll give him/her (?) a shot sometime, if I ever get bored of my beautiful Aggressors

I guess I should have said not easily accurately mathetically computed

I like Xizor and all, but "infinite" is stretching it just a little bit

Yeah it increases the jousting value but obviously isn't infinite. Strictly speaking to find the value you would have to re-derive the fundamental equations using a different set of differential equations.

...I majored in English

but carry on your excellent work, we all trust you to be correct at this point

The generics have to EPT slot, so they can't even play at mobility like A Wings and Interceptors. They also have a pilot skill too low to fly the Viagro, so they can't get the systems upgrade that would make them at all promising. All I know is I can't wait to mod my battle butterflys now that I'll have some free time next week.