Although I agree that assembling Kanan's Lightsaber isn't exactly like assembling a cased sniper rifle it does require some attention greater than a simple draw. I would allow a Quickdraw but require spending the two Strain on an extra Maneuver to assemble, exchanging a Maneuver for enhanced concealability is a fair trade.

My point exactly.

If we do see a martial arts spec, either specific or general, it won't be until the F&D career books come out sometime about a year and half or more from now.

Although I agree that assembling Kanan's Lightsaber isn't exactly like assembling a cased sniper rifle it does require some attention greater than a simple draw. I would allow a Quickdraw but require spending the two Strain on an extra Maneuver to assemble, exchanging a Maneuver for enhanced concealability is a fair trade.

My point exactly.

And I say you're both full of it in this particular regard.

Were this Saga Edition or OCR/RCR where combat rounds are measured in seconds, then I'd see your point. But this is a game where combat rounds generally measured in increments of a at least a minute, if not more. Maybe I'm a nicer GM than the two of you, but I don't see forcing a PC to have to spend two maneuvers to draw a weapon, particularly when there are official weapon attachments that have the same core effect (increased ability to conceal) don't have a similar restriction.

There's also the fact that drawing it is still, within the rules, drawing a weapon. If you really want to split hairs, you should probably require PCs drawing their blasters to spend a maneuver to disengage the safety on their blasters when drawing them, and a Quick Draw character still having to spend a maneuver to draw, disengage the safety, and then fire.

You two seem to be treating the attachment as "it makes the lightsaber impossible to detect!" Which it doesn't. The majority of 'saber monkey PCs aren't going to have Stealth as a career skill, and hiding an item is an opposed check with the searcher rolling their Perception skill vs. the PC's Stealth for an active search. Even a regular lightsaber can be hidden with no check involved (see Concealing Gear, pg 153 in EotE, pg166 in AOR, pg 114 FaD Beta) since it's an Encumbrance 1 item.

Of course, now re-reading that section the Shortened Barrel's base effects (which I used as the starting point for the Two-Piece Hilt attachment) don't make much sense, as they're limited to Ranged (Light) pistol weapons, most of which are Encumbrance 1 anyways (heavy blaster pistols are the prime exception), and would require an active Perception check to notice. So for most such weapons, you're reducing the weapon's range for zero actual benefit; if anything it should probably increase or upgrade the difficulty of the searcher's Perception check.

Although I agree that assembling Kanan's Lightsaber isn't exactly like assembling a cased sniper rifle it does require some attention greater than a simple draw. I would allow a Quickdraw but require spending the two Strain on an extra Maneuver to assemble, exchanging a Maneuver for enhanced concealability is a fair trade.

My point exactly.

And I say you're both full of it in this particular regard.

Were this Saga Edition or OCR/RCR where combat rounds are measured in seconds, then I'd see your point. But this is a game where combat rounds generally measured in increments of a at least a minute, if not more. Maybe I'm a nicer GM than the two of you, but I don't see forcing a PC to have to spend two maneuvers to draw a weapon, particularly when there are official weapon attachments that have the same core effect (increased ability to conceal) don't have a similar restriction.

There's also the fact that drawing it is still, within the rules, drawing a weapon. If you really want to split hairs, you should probably require PCs drawing their blasters to spend a maneuver to disengage the safety on their blasters when drawing them, and a Quick Draw character still having to spend a maneuver to draw, disengage the safety, and then fire.

You two seem to be treating the attachment as "it makes the lightsaber impossible to detect!" Which it doesn't. The majority of 'saber monkey PCs aren't going to have Stealth as a career skill, and hiding an item is an opposed check with the searcher rolling their Perception skill vs. the PC's Stealth for an active search. Even a regular lightsaber can be hidden with no check involved (see Concealing Gear, pg 153 in EotE, pg166 in AOR, pg 114 FaD Beta) since it's an Encumbrance 1 item.

Of course, now re-reading that section the Shortened Barrel's base effects (which I used as the starting point for the Two-Piece Hilt attachment) don't make much sense, as they're limited to Ranged (Light) pistol weapons, most of which are Encumbrance 1 anyways (heavy blaster pistols are the prime exception), and would require an active Perception check to notice. So for most such weapons, you're reducing the weapon's range for zero actual benefit; if anything it should probably increase or upgrade the difficulty of the searcher's Perception check.

You are giving quick draw too much power. A characters part of of the turn not the whole thing. You get a time slice of it. quick draw puts something in your hand as an incidental. It does not make it possible to assemble things at super speed. You still need to spend the maneuver to do the assembly.

We are not talking about flipping a switch. We are talking about aligning and fitting together 2 parts. Which takes a maneuver. just like reloading a blaster. Quickdraw can get the parts in your hand but it can't cover the assembly.

I don't think it makes the lightsaber impossible to detect. It makes it harder to recognize as a lightsaber. You are trading speed for it being harder to detect. It makes it into a couple of parts that individually don't say lightsaber.

Take a look at the manage gear maneuver. and reread quick draw. Quick draw reduces the time by 1 maneuver. without quick draw it would take one maneuver to get the parts out and another maneuver to do the assembly which is a manage gear maneuver(just like reloading a blaster which is also assembling 2 parts). All quick draw does is get stuff on you belt quickly into your hands. Nothing more. By you logic one could use quick draw to perform repairs faster. Which is not the intent of the talent.

With quick draw you can Draw the parts. Incidental. assemble them. 1 maneuver. walk forward. spend 2 strain for a second maneuver. end of his action. Kalus says focus fire on the...Jedi.

At this point, I'm just moving to the "agree to disagree." From reading Daeglan's various posts, he's far too attached to strictly literal interpretations of RAW for him to even consider moving out of that particular comfort zone, that it's simply not worth wasting any more of my time trying to get him to consider other alternatives.

Eh, I think the most important thing to consider is - what gives the player maximum CPT*. Is the GM answering the question "How can I make my players feel awesome?" with:

A) "Use quick draw to put both pieces in the character's hand, spend two strain, give up a maneuver and assemble the two halves, Roll your attack."

or

B) "Eh, F' it - the character snatches both halfs of the saber off his belt as he's somersaulting in the air over the heads of the enemies, snaps the saber together and rolls to his feet, the blazing green sword ready to dispense justice on the Trandoshan terrorists."

If you answer A, you are doing it wrong.

* Coolness Per Turn

Eh, I think the most important thing to consider is - what gives the player maximum CPT*. Is the GM answering the question "How can I make my players feel awesome?"

* Coolness Per Turn

I can't like this enough.

After all, the main point of playing a Star Wars RPG is not simply to tell a fun story, but to do the sort of cool things that we see the heroes do in the film and media.

Basically your going with no trade off for doing this. Even though there should be one because if there was not a draw back every one would do it. And the draw back I am stating is not a big one.2 strain and you can still move and attack. Hell you could still do a hawk bat swoop an no strain.

You guys act like that strain is the end of the world.

The Rule of Cool, *sigh*. You know when you first start chewing a piece of gum the flavor is strong but as you keep chewing it gets weaker until finally you're just chewing away on a flavorless wad of squishy stuff? Using the RoC for every little thing like this will do the same, only quicker. Obstacles, barriers, conflicts, challenges, costs, the box as it were, these things aren't there to keep people from having fun, overcoming them is the fun. Make it too easy or without cost and you strip away the challenge and eventually the feeling of accomplishment.

You seem to think that not always getting you're way or it requiring a cost is somehow not fun, this seem a bit childish to me. Fun for me is what I described above, fun is overcoming the obstacles despite the setbacks. If requiring a PC to spend a Maneuver to assemble an item kills your fun, then you're doing it wrong.

Regarding the lightsaber attachment: I agree that there should be a trade-off for being able to hide a lightsaber more easily.

In this case, though, the trade-off is losing one of your weapon's hardpoints. No need to go looking for another "cost."

It's a nice attachment, modeled after the Shortened Barrel for Ranged (Light) weapons, and also kinda similar to the Shadowsheath (which works for Melee weapons, and increases Difficulty to detect rather than decreasing Difficulty to conceal). Makes sense that a lightsaber would have some kind of attachment that makes it easier to hide.

Dono, have you considered adding a "Quick Draw" mod to this attachment? Would be nice for the Jedi-types that don't have access to the talent in their talent trees.

The breaking down of a Lightsabler isn't about making it easer to hide, it's making it unrecognisable as a Lightsaber, there is a difference. Mechanically it should be a different roll or even not requiring a roll at all unless the NPC has some experience seeing this in action.

The argument for requiring a Maneuver to assemble isn't about quickness but attention. It requires a certain amount of attention to take two pieces of equipment and attach them just as it takes attention to draw a weapon from a holster, Quickdraw represents the PC's ability to draw without having to pay attention to the action because they've practised enough to be able to do it as an Incidental (Spent the EXP on it). This doesn't mean you can't do the same with attaching two parts together but currently in the RAW you can only do this with a single "Draw" Maneuver. You cannot for example use Quickdraw to draw two pistols as an Incidental. Additionally because the "Draw" Maneuver specifies a single draw or otherwise readying an item to use not and, by the RAW even with Quickdraw you would need to spend a Maneuver to either draw or ready (put together) a Lightsabler with this attachment.

And save the flipping the safety or activating an already drawn Lightsabler argument because that is not what we are discussing nor is it required by the RAW.

Dono, have you considered adding a "Quick Draw" mod to this attachment? Would be nice for the Jedi-types that don't have access to the talent in their talent trees.

Thought about it, but decided against it. Mostly as providing a Quick Draw option would push the attachment from "something neat" into the "gotta have it" territory.

That said, I am taking another look at the mechanics of it, and will probably base the concealment factor of the shadowsheath, though not nearly as good. Probably just be an upgrade instead of an increase in difficulty. Along with increasing the hard point cost to two so that it becomes a case of "how badly do I want a minor improvement to hide my lightsaber versus having other attachments?" Especially once the inevitable FaD sourcebooks start coming out and feature additional lightsaber attachments that aren't focusing crystals. A basic lightsaber only has 3 hard points to work with once you account for the focusing crystal, so having the two-piece hilt eat up two of them is far more of a choice.

Then again, I've got Ezra's blaster hilt at two hard points along with the spin-saw option for the Inquisitor's double-saber, and both of those are far more complex than Kanan's two-piece hilt.

Even though there should be one because if there was not a draw back every one would do it.

And if everyone was doing it, it would lose it's value as a hidden in plain sight lightsaber, wouldn't it?

Somehow I don't see not being bogged down in minutia as eliminating fun or exciting.

Also, you can NEVER have too much cool. It's like Bacon or Pizza - physically impossible to have too much.

Somehow I don't see not being bogged down in minutia as eliminating fun or exciting.

Is it more minutia to follow the RAW or hand wave it? In either case you have to spend the same amount of attention on it. Seriously, if the Player and GM know that it's a Maneuver to attach the two bits then they plan for it, it's not that difficult.

Again, why must there be more cost involved than the cost of a valuable hardpoint on your weapon?

Because there is a cost in time for assembling something vs. Just pulling it off your belt. You cannot deny that. And it is about the same amount of time as slapping in a power pack in a blaster. Which is a manuever.

I'll throw my hat in the "not a maneuver to assemble it and to draw the pieces" side of the discussion.

If it costs both a maneuver to draw it and a maneuver to assemble it, then you can't have the cool scene where Kanan does both while advancing upon the squad of stormies firing upon him and his friends. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

"Well I draw my lightsaber components and assemble it."

"Cool that will be two maneuvers."

"Okay, I now advance upon Darth MacLeod."

"Sure. But you won't be able to actually move upon him until next round since you have no maneuvers left. You kind of just stood there futzing with your lightsaber for your entire turn."

I'll throw my hat in the "not a maneuver to assemble it and to draw the pieces" side of the discussion.

If it costs both a maneuver to activate it, a maneuver to assemble it, then you can't have the cool scene where Kanan does both while advancing upon the squad of stormies firing upon him and his friends. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

"Well I draw my lightsaber components and assemble it."

"Cool that will be two maneuvers."

"Okay, I now advance upon Darth MacLeod."

"But you have no maneuvers left. You just stood there futzing with your lightsaber for your entire turn."

No one is saying you need a Maneuver to activate it only one to Draw and one to put it together. Which means with Quickdraw you can do exactly what Kanan does at the low cost of two Strain or you can forgo your attack and suffer no strain. The whole argument here has been that some believe that Quickdraw should cover both these Maneuvers.

Because there is a cost in time for assembling something vs. Just pulling it off your belt. You cannot deny that. And it is about the same amount of time as slapping in a power pack in a blaster. Which is a manuever.

I can swap lenses out of my camera bag onto my camera body - with gloves on (setback die) - well within the minute or so that it would take for a combat round to play out. And I'm pretty sure that my Canon doesn't have a quick draw modification.

It's not about time, if it was about how long something takes then you'd be able to do pretty much everything currently listed as a Maneuver or Action in the CRB in one turn. A minute is a long time. It's about having to pay attention to what you are doing while in a high stress environment and game mechanics. The game mechanic tells us what a Maneuver is so thats how you play it, it doesn't always make sense but it does provide consistency. Look you can argue that you should be able to Draw and assemble your weapon then move and attack all in one turn because, as I said, it's a minute and that's a long time, but then you can argue the same for practically any maneuver in the CRB. Where do you draw the line? Bend or break the rules too often and they become arbitrary and ultimately unfair.

No one is saying you need a Maneuver to activate it only one to Draw and one to put it together. Which means with Quickdraw you can do exactly what Kanan does at the low cost of two Strain or you can forgo your attack and suffer no strain. The whole argument here has been that some believe that Quickdraw should cover both these Maneuvers.

My apologies. I had edited my original post to say "assemble" not activated. I would agree that it shouldn't take more than incidental to activate.

FuriousGreg,

Did you actually bother to read the mechanics I had posted for the two-piece hilt, or are you just going off Daeglan's rather biased and narrow-minded view?

No where does it say that assembling the two-piece hilt is covered in the same action as drawing it. It's a separate incidental from the drawing. So no Quick Draw talent means it takes one maneuver to draw, one incidental to assemble. Quick Draw talent means two separate incidental actions (one to draw, the second to assemble). And if the PC had to use Quick Draw on something else that turn, then they're back to the one maneuver to draw and one incidental to assemble. And for some reason the Quick Draw PC is limited to a single incidental action on their turn, then they can either draw but not assemble the two-piece hilt, and put it together as an incidental on their next turn. And in the case of Quick Draw, the PC has had to invest XP in order to have it for that weapon, so it's not like they got Quick Draw for nothing.

Seriously, I can't fathom what the big stink over this is. As Awayputyrwpn has noted, it's not an automatic thing handed out to every lightsaber. It's an attachment that takes up a hard point, has a credit cost (albeit a fairly low one that's on par with similarly-themed attachments in the EotE and AoR core rulebooks), and doesn't have any modification options (as I noted previously, I deliberately avoided adding a Quick Draw option). And yet from the way you and Daeglan are carrying on, one might think what I'd posted was an absolute game-breaker on par with letting a starting-tier PC have an EotE/AoR version of a lightsaber for free.

*shrugs*

I don't even know why I'm arguing this - I don't have a player with a lightsaber (or hell, even any sort of weapon) that can do this. I have no horse in this race. Peace out guys, its your game, play as you wish and I shall do the same.

*shrugs*

I don't even know why I'm arguing this - I don't have a player with a lightsaber (or hell, even any sort of weapon) that can do this. I have no horse in this race. Peace out guys, its your game, play as you wish and I shall do the same.

Yeah. It's about as productive as trying to convince a brick wall to not be so inflexible.

But points for trying, and I did like the "cool per session" remark, as it's a pretty good guideline to apply when running any RPG.

Because there is a cost in time for assembling something vs. Just pulling it off your belt. You cannot deny that. And it is about the same amount of time as slapping in a power pack in a blaster. Which is a manuever.

I can swap lenses out of my camera bag onto my camera body - with gloves on (setback die) - well within the minute or so that it would take for a combat round to play out. And I'm pretty sure that my Canon doesn't have a quick draw modification.

You don't get the full minute. You get a time slice of that.

FuriousGreg,

Did you actually bother to read the mechanics I had posted for the two-piece hilt, or are you just going off Daeglan's rather biased and narrow-minded view?

No where does it say that assembling the two-piece hilt is covered in the same action as drawing it. It's a separate incidental from the drawing. So no Quick Draw talent means it takes one maneuver to draw, one incidental to assemble. Quick Draw talent means two separate incidental actions (one to draw, the second to assemble). And if the PC had to use Quick Draw on something else that turn, then they're back to the one maneuver to draw and one incidental to assemble. And for some reason the Quick Draw PC is limited to a single incidental action on their turn, then they can either draw but not assemble the two-piece hilt, and put it together as an incidental on their next turn. And in the case of Quick Draw, the PC has had to invest XP in order to have it for that weapon, so it's not like they got Quick Draw for nothing.

Seriously, I can't fathom what the big stink over this is. As Awayputyrwpn has noted, it's not an automatic thing handed out to every lightsaber. It's an attachment that takes up a hard point, has a credit cost (albeit a fairly low one that's on par with similarly-themed attachments in the EotE and AoR core rulebooks), and doesn't have any modification options (as I noted previously, I deliberately avoided adding a Quick Draw option). And yet from the way you and Daeglan are carrying on, one might think what I'd posted was an absolute game-breaker on par with letting a starting-tier PC have an EotE/AoR version of a lightsaber for free.

Slapping a power pack into a blaster is a maneuver. Why is this faster than slapping a power pack into a blaster? It is about the same.