I attended a tournament yesterday here in the UK. It was quite well attended, with 30 people, and the standard was good overall. I took my usual 7 tie swarm (list below) and was interested to see at least 4 other swarms (6 or 7 ships) in attendance, as this usually isn't a hugely popular list in the UK.

my list, for those interested, although it isn't really relevant to the topic:

Howlrunner, Stealth

Dark Curse

Black Squadron Tie, DTF

4x Academy Tie

----

100

as it turned out, i faced 3 of the other 4 swarms over the course of 6 games, winning 5 overall but losing to the winner and his 6 swarm. since i was on 100 points, and so were all of the others, we rolled off for initiative, and i lost it all 3 times.

for me, all three games felt like a forgone conclusion as soon as i lost that initiative roll. if the other player can block you and deny your actions, they are almost guaranteed to win the ensuing first shootout, and therefore the game.

as it happened, i was facing much less experienced players in two of the games so i was able to scrape a victory in each case even though i lost the initial exchange (with some serious help from the dice i must add), but in the game against someone of equal skill, there was never a contest and i was torn to bits.

this is where i would be interested to know peoples thoughts:

when two Tie swarms face off, and you do not have initiative and move second, what are your tactics?

you could drop two points for an initiative bid.

hard question to answer.

learn to flying anti-blocking? which is pretty hard considering the amount of ships on the board.

I would split my swarm into two squadrons. Howl, Black and two APs. Curse and two APs. Flay them apart from each other and you might force your opponent to split their swarm up as well???

you could drop two points for an initiative bid.

hard question to answer.

learn to flying anti-blocking? which is pretty hard considering the amount of ships on the board.

indeed i could drop points, but i'm overall very happy with the list as it is so i'd rather avoid that. in any case, the same problem arises when you come up against another list with the same points value.

I would split my swarm into two squadrons. Howl, Black and two APs. Curse and two APs. Flay them apart from each other and you might force your opponent to split their swarm up as well???

interesting. it would certainly keep many people off balance. using the fact that you have the luxury of seeing where your opponent deploys could give you an edge here. if the asteroids allow, i'll certainly try this next time.

currently people have been using the drunken shark opening which is basically what he described. more in depth can be found on team covenant.

the chances of coming across another swarm player at 98 points is rather low. also, you still get a 50% chance even then.

Our game was still pretty close up until that last turn where I took out your howlrunner, with me only 6 points ahead and you having multiple shots on my tie, you could have easily got a modified victory if the dice had been kinder.

If you had split up your formation, I would just zerg rush one of them and try and pounce on it, asteroids permitting obviously.

I'd still consider you more experienced at running swarms then me, my 3 interceptors just helped enough, combined with my slightly better dice rolls.

I'm happy to have a rematch where you have initiative, though knowing our record my dice would be on fire that game:D

sure, i'd love a rematch without me having initiative to try a split as well. i think it would work better than you suggest, but i'd have to time it right.

First, with AP swarm vs. AP swarm having initiative is a big deal, as you noticed. It is certainly worth spending points on, I usually put 2 or 3 points into an initiative bid when running an AP swarm. Having said that, there are things you can do to minimize this advantage if you find yourself on the receiving end. If you can get through the first pass relatively intact, you will have largely weathered the initiative storm.

I am assuming you are using a 3 ranks of 2 formation. Pinwheel formations are my first choice, but they are most effective with high PS firepower swarms (usually just 6 TIEs) rather than the more traditional AP+ swarm you list. Usually AP+ swarms do best in 3 ranks, to prevent ships from k-turning over them. I will also note that it is possible to come in at an oblique, preventing you from losing actions on that first exchange, but it is very difficult to pull off with any sort of consistency against a skilled opponent. There are just too many ways to counter your efforts in that regard.

Start by breaking it down backwards. If you win the initiative, you want the first exchange of fire to be at range 2/3. That way, on the next round you move into point blank range and either deny actions because they bump you or cause them to split formation in order to avoid you. This gives you two solid rounds of firing with actions before your initiative advantage disappears in the k-turn exchange.

Knowing this, if you lose initiative you want to try to ensure your first exchange of fire is at range 1. It may seem counterintuitive, but it works. Try to have your first round end just out of range, usually by doing a 3 straight. The next turn, put 2 straights down and be prepared to have your second rank "leap frog" over the first if necessary (if your opponent left room for everyone to move without bumping, just enjoy your point blank exchange of fully operational TIE fighters). You should have enough room for this if you were not in firing range the turn before. This allows that second rank to get actions, then when the first rank moves (and bumps, losing their actions) it will clear enough room for your back rank to move and get their actions. This allows you to reduce the action denial to only 2 Academy TIEs, rather than your whole list.

You very much need to clear one TIE from each of the two columns in their formation in order to give you room for a k-turn. You can pick which ones, but it is usually worth the inefficiency to fire at Howlrunner and eliminate her. You will have at least 2 TIEs at Range 1 and possibly with focus from her, so it isn't terrible. Otherwise, concentrate on removing at least 1 TIE from each column in order to give you room for a K-Turn after they bump you next turn.

TL:DR: Have the first exchange be at point blank in order to minimize your action-loss on the critical first exchange of fire. Ideally you have all your actions, minimally you lose only 1/3 of them (and those from your least valuable ships).

- An alternative is to barrel roll your APs to either side and slightly backwards on the first turn, allowing Howl to come up the center. Your next move is a 2 bank back towards the center. This makes it difficult for you to concentrate fire, and requires you to be away from the edge of the board (and that is dependent on your opponent's set up since they had init). However, it makes it possible for you to turn or k-turn behind your opponent while blocking his ability to do the same. This will take a lot of practice to get right, but if your opponent hasn't faced it before it can be devastating.

If you time it right, not having the Initiative can actually be better. Yes, its hard to do (and you have to guess right), but here is the basics of it:

If you are both running a single formation of Ties, and you don't have initiative, you want to land the majority of your squad at the front of R2 (or slightly into R1) for the opening volley. That means, with Ties moving at each other, the minimum movement is '2', which means both of each other's slowest speed is just over 1 Range band [2 fwd+1base length= 1/2 base length into the R2 band from you're initial spot]. Also, a 5 fwd takes you over two Range bands [this time 1 full base length into R3 from your initial position]. So, combine that with the jousting rule of 11, and it should help pull off a good engagement turn.

Here's what happens if you pull off the R2 engagement: The enemy has to move first. At R2, his front rank will collide doing their slowest move (2 fwd), and your formation is deep enough that both 3-K and 4-K don't work or are way too risky. So he has no good moves, and does whatever he thinks is best at the time. This leaves you a couple options: You can often go straight, and jump into the position his front rank just left open. His back rank will crash on any fwd moves unless he gets lucky with spacing. Your back rank will be tricky, because it could often mean bumping. However, doing a bank (or turn with a BR) can keep your buffs together, and you have actions, whereas his whole formation doesn't and is spread out. At that point you should be clear to K-turn the ones in formation, and hard turn the ones that just did they hard turn previously. Thus your Ties should be in a better volley position, and have two solid turns to shoot his back rank (like Howlrunner).

Again, this is hard and a little random to pull off, but the principles are there. Also, you can just plain out guess them, and do a 5 fwd and jump over their blockers if you think they will accelerate to block your 2 fwd. Also, if you both start on the front line, if he does a 5 fwd then 5 fwd, you will barely bump if you do a 2 fwd and 2 fwd (if I got my math correct).

The last trick I have is for when you know you will bump. If you have say 4 APs, two in front and two in the middle, move the middle two first, jump over and get your focus action. Then, your front two will get pushed back into about the spot they started in. Yes, you lose most of your actions, but at least you have a couple focus actions (which are now on your front line). Should help a bit.

(looks like Kinectic may have ninja'ed me a bit)

I play swarm a lot myself, and not having the initiative isn't that bad against another swarm. As stated before you have to stay through that initial firestorm, after that you should have a slight edge as you can better arc dodge with your barrel rolls. Also never forget the simultaneous fire rule, it's important in swarm vs swarm fights! The strongest swarm seems to be the 8 AP when used by an experienced player, I've seen it destroying the 7 howl swarm and the 6 elite swarm several times.

thanks guys. while i'm experienced enough to know quite a bit of the stuff you mentioned, i certainly picked up a few interesting titbits there that i never considered. i think it was especially difficult in the games i mentioned because almost all of the opposing ties were PS1 as well. therefore i was impossible to just avoid their blockers, since they were ALL blockers. if someone was using an obsidian swarm with only 1 or 2 blockers, i actually think i'd have found it easier!

My 6 ship list that beat him was.

Howlrunner, determination, hull

2 academy

3 alpha

I think coming in at an angle would be good, as being able to barrel roll out of arc is good, well, its totally great.

He also managed to beat the exact same list (though with stealth instead of hull) right after I beat him in game 5, while not having initiative.

Your opponent and you pull your pillows out.

Start fighting.

Sorry i couldn't resist.

KO covered it up pretty well, iniative with PS1 is very important, on a jousting duel, action efficiency is everything, not to speak about possible crits.

looks like i'm going to have to look into shaving at least a point or two then i suppose.

I was at the same tournament. Close game in round four, there! That single evade die is still on the naughty step.

A few other solutions to losing initiative:

1) Run an obsidian swarm (my preference!). I care about initiative less.

2) Test some staggered starts to mitigate the blocking. You can make some 'W' formations without too much hassle and 'H' formations, etc.

3) Don't forget: even if you're in a 2x3 formation - you can move your back row first, leapfrog your front line, and then (possibly) your front line will bump your 'new' front line giving you shots everywhere.

4) Don't setup to joust. Setup asteroids so the lines across the map are more scarce and make them traverse the map, or you can meet in the middle where blocking isn't as big of an issue early on.

5) Setup your own blocks. In a 2x3 formation where you're likely to get blocked - move one ship out of formation a bit (bank or turn) and control your own blocking. This is similar to #3.

I'm finding all this information pretty useful too