I guess I've seem many types. Seen them get up and leave when it didn't go their way; one guy likes to concede after the second turn if he doesn't have an advantage; another while playing D&D insisted the GM fully roll the stats and abilities for an NPC to see if he could actually attack. One guy even liked to target individuals but when the tables were turned he pouted for weeks.

Those are, thankfully, the exception. Most often we have lots of fun playing a variety of games. I like to play competitively, i.e. play to win and I like the other player to play that way as well. But fun is the first rule so we've allowed people to take back mistakes. It all depends on the players, their experience and the specific mood of that game and night. I've purposely lost many-a game because the opponent hasn't won often enough, IMHO. To remain fun for me it needs to be fun for everyone. I have friends that aren't as good at tactics, or better at tactics but not as good at strategy. It sucks always being the looser of one game. I'm referring to both adults and my grand-kids. I'm not doing them a dis-service but allowing them to have fun and hone their skills. Allowing them to win or take back a bad move isn't the same as rolling over and playing dead.

IMHO 'Fly Casual' is playing to have fun for the group. For us it is still competitive but relaxed and occasionally forgiving.

Vanor did you actually read the rule that was posted above you?

Yes I did, but apparently you didn't."The TO may participate in a casual- or competitive-level tournament for which he is responsible only if there is a second Tournament Organizer present."No mention of premier level events in that statement. In Premier level events the TO isn't allowed to play period.So yes it is against the rules for a TO to play, unless they have a 2nd one to judge their games. Again that doesn't mean the rule has to be followed, but it is there and it is quite clear.Also, regardless of who's side of the story is more correct. It's clear that someone walked away from that event with a very bad taste in their mouth.

Vanor are you actually aware of what defines a Premier level event according to FFG. The tournament rules specefically stated that Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds. Even Store Championships and official FFG pre-release events still only reach the Competitive tier of events. So I can not believe you actually think that a 3 round event held at a local store outside of the FFG event season would be at all near the Premier tier as defined by FFG. It seems like you are grasping at straws in that regard.

So now for the third time your assertion that TOs are not allowed to participate in events is untrue. For the vast majority of events in a given year TOs are able to participate, provided they have a 2nd. A TO participating in a non-Premier event, which is clearly the level of event in question in this thread, is not basically cheating as you asserted.

Whether that should be the rule is another story, but please to acting like it isn't the rule in this regard.

Just because a player walks away feeling slighted doesn't mean thier feelings are justified or warranted. If the assertions that poster made are just untrue as the other poster claims then the hard feelings you speak of are frankly unwarranted.

Vanor are you actually aware of what defines a Premier level event according to FFG.

Apparently we're saying the same thing, but I don't think you're actually reading what I'm saying. A TO isn't allowed to play, unless there's a second TO there to judge their games. Which is what I've been saying since the 2nd post I made on this issue.

It seemed pretty clear from that post, there wasn't a second TO there.

Just because a player walks away feeling slighted doesn't mean thier feelings are justified or warranted.

A persons feelings are their feelings regardless of if their justified or not. Whether they're justified or not, won't change the fact that they may never step foot in that store again.

We actually have no real idea how that event was ran as we have very conflicting accounts.

But if your only point of contention was the lack of 2nd TO then why the overbroad initial statement stating that a TO shouldn't be playing at all with no mention of the 2nd TO. And then why bring up the Premier event rules and act like we don't know if it was a Premier level event when you absolutely knew they didn't apply in this case? Seems like a pointless argument to make if you were only concenerned with the possible lack of a 2nd TO.

If a persons feeling are unjustified then there is no point in placating them as that isn't equitable to the other reasonable actors in a situation. People make unreasonable demands all of the time, you don't give into them just because they feel a certain way. Just like not all opinions are valid just because everyone is entitled to have one.

The store Manager was on hand to mediate any rulings issues that might have conflicted with the event and none such arose. One thing I have learned getting back to the topic core is to know the pulse of the community.

Recently as the WNY community has begun to expand its important for pocket play groups to understand what other players motivations are and to respect the differences in play styles, given what transpired last weekend as a prime case study. Since many of us are unfamiliar with one another it would be a shame not to use this as a learned experience to avoid future NPE's.

People make unreasonable demands all of the time, you don't give into them just because they feel a certain way.

But you do, as a business owner try to deal with their issues if you are able to. Regardless of how reasonable they are.

Maybe the person who posted that was full of BS, maybe not. We weren't there and the truth is seldom what either side has to say. So unless they're a troll they apparently felt justified enough to come here and post about it. Whether you think they were justified or not is completely irrelevant, because you don't get to decide how justified their opinions are.

Darph, it sounds like Cosmos didn't realize there was a 2nd Judge on hand to cover any rules disputes. I don't feel there's anything wrong with the TO playing , as long as there's another impartial judge to handle rule problems.

That being said, i also feel that if you are the TO and playing in the event, you really don't need to try too hard to win, focus more on having fun, as its easy to see where people can get offended/upset if the TO beats the stuffing out of everyone and gets the prize.

At my FLGS the owner regularly plays (and loses, good lord hes terrible) but that's just because he likes to have fun. But if he played and won regularly, do you think people would want to participate in tournaments at that store? Hell no, and i really don't blame them. Nobody likes seeing the house win all the time.

As much as i like and espouse Fly Casual, if you are running/organizing an event where people are paying money, you have to take it serious and treat it professionally. And yes, that might mean sacrificing some of your fun, but if you don't like that, then why are you even running these events in the first place?

Recently as the WNY community has begun to expand its important for pocket play groups to understand what other players motivations are and to respect the differences in play styles

Darph, I have no idea what really happened and if it sounded like I was attacking you, I apologize. I took what someone said as being the truth, and honestly I should of known better.

Not to slight anyone that is part of this conversation, as there are many useful and interesting points being discussed, but I must add...

Sometimes internet arguments remind me of arguments with my wife. It starts by disagreeing on one topic, then turns into disagreeing about one particular thing the other person said whilst trying to defend the first topic. Then it all comes full circle back to the first argument, with no one agreeing on anything.

By correlation, all people on the internet must be married to eacother!

The real shame was that I had to play at all, going into Saturday I had no intention of playing but as I said earlier on we had an odd number and wanted to avoid someone getting a bye. I thought I was doing the right thing and unfortunately the outcome is what it was, lesson learned. Let it be known I harbor no ill will, as folks are entitled to their opinion and feelings which should be respected whether we agree or not.

Not to slight anyone that is part of this conversation, as there are many useful and interesting points being discussed, but I must add...

Sometimes internet arguments remind me of arguments with my wife. It starts by disagreeing on one topic, then turns into disagreeing about one particular thing the other person said whilst trying to defend the first topic. Then it all comes full circle back to the first argument, with no one agreeing on anything.

By correlation, all people on the internet must be married to eacother!

LET THE WIFE SWAP BEGIN!

Hold on there, by extension then, all wives are not necessarily women...yeah, nvm.

Recently as the WNY community has begun to expand its important for pocket play groups to understand what other players motivations are and to respect the differences in play styles

Darph, I have no idea what really happened and if it sounded like I was attacking you, I apologize. I took what someone said as being the truth, and honestly I should of known better.

No worries here, we simply have two different perspectives on what happened and this is a great learning opportunity to avoid such mistakes and misgivings in future.

I for one am ready to move along...

The answer is not a "yes/no" to be honest. In my zone this is not a problem, we don't have any trouble letting the TO play. Normally he is not the judge anyways, and we always have people who know about the rules and can do a neutral

And about pairings, it is pretty hard to cheat with the pairings on a tournament with 12-16 persons. It is the kind of stuff that you would notice pretty early, i almost always know who am i facing before the next round and the TOs normally use a program to get the pairings instantly, and do it infront of everybody.

It can be that we pretty much know most of us for many years already, and we don't have those "trust issues" anymore.

@Darph Nader Apologies for my blunt "he was pretty dumb", i meant as an attitude towards the game and community building in case that it was truth. I normally think the better of people, and i should had phrased that much better.

Wait, nevermind, you guys are much better at apologies than my wife!

Wait, nevermind, you guys are much better at apologies than my wife!

That's because most guys have a lot more practice at it...

I love this game and my husband and I play all the time at home and with friends. We love to play the game to have fun, to play in the spirit of the movies. It is always just a good time, spending time with friends and making jokes and telling stories about growing up loving the movies and books. I think that is the way it should be played.

We went to and played at a tournament at local game store yesterday and I couldn't believe the way the judge was acting. He was rude, shouted every third thing, and I'm pretty sure he was cheating. Why not just have fun? There was a kid there, playing for what seemed like is third or fourth time after getting the game. He was very excited and I happened to play him after he played the judge. I noticed that he wasn't taking actions and asked him about it; he was convinced that he couldn't take an action unless he performed a green move. When I let him know that he could and that it would help his game he seemed surprised; when I asked if he was using actions during his previous game, he said 'no'. So, unfortunately the judge, who had no problem jumping down the throats of all the other players to rules lawyer the heck out of the game, didn't help this kid out, because it wasn't in his (the judge's) benefit. It's too bad; I hope it doesn't tarnish this kids wanting to play the game. (Worst part - there were six games going, the judge played against three children who seemed to be just starting out, and he won.)

Its too bad that people act like that. The store we played in was a nice place, but I don't think we will be going back. Hopefully the children he played against, don't start to act that way hoping it will get them a win.

I just want to say that I was one of those "kids" and I had no problem playing against him. He flew his own squad so that players didn't have to sit out. I enjoyed the game despite losing its nice facing new and diverse squads, how else will I learn for the next time I encounter them? I talked to one of the other guys that he played and he had a good time at the tournament and learned a lot, the biggest reason I go to the smaller tournaments. And at the very least there was another TO there to over watch darth nader's games.

In order to move back from this particular case to the general idea, I think that Darph Nader is right about having the pulse of the community - especially when it's not a community yet.

By that I mean that if the people attending don't (mostly) have a common understanding of the norms of conduct, they're a society more than a community. This is good ol' German sociology (Tönnies) which thinks about this sort of thing. Newcomers or parents will not know the norms and/or be very protective. It's good to be aware of that and give special attention to the newcomers to be inviting and forgiving, while at the same time teaching them the unspoken rules that govern people's interactions.

The thing is that if you're a TO, or the guy who is trying to build a group of people who will play this game with eachother into the future, then it's good to pay attention to the unspoken norms of conduct. If a person is behaving in a deviant manner, it's worthwhile to draw them aside and explain to them why that behavior isn't in the best interest of the group, and ultimately it's more important to have an overall good time than it is to win a particular match.)

Also, TOs are human and fallible. I kind of dread being a TO because while I do have the social skills to make the organization happen, I'm not a rules judge. From my perspective, the former is more important, and the rules-stuff is something that can be shouted out to the group playing: "Hey guys, what's the rule on that?" That's what I tend to do as a player, and ... frequently I get corrected that way, because rules and ruleslawyering is just not what I do. But... of course a TO should be well-versed in the rules.

of course a TO should be well-versed in the rules.

They should, but I don't think the TO has to be the judge either. Not if they know someone who is good with the rules but is lacking in other skills a TO needs.

Of course we would never do this here...

of course a TO should be well-versed in the rules.

They should, but I don't think the TO has to be the judge either. Not if they know someone who is good with the rules but is lacking in other skills a TO needs.

Agreed. A division of labor brings about the best result. I guess there's a mislabeling based on the assumption that there's only one person fulfilling both roles. Obviously, it's not hard for a particular event to have the organizer say: "Hey, I brought you all together, but Bob here is going to be the judge. I'll get you drinks; he'll get you rules."

At that point - provided neither are playing - the organizer can also smooth ruffled feathers and make sure everyone feels welcome and appreciated - and is spreading the 'Fly Casual' norm.

IMHO 'Fly Casual' is playing to have fun for the group. For us it is still competitive but relaxed and occasionally forgiving.

This reminded me of something.

When I was buying my first ships and learning how to play the game, I remember thinking that the game lends itself to arguing. It's not played on a grid and depending on the surface on which you play, its possible for ships to get moved accidentally and it's just not a game of exact angles, ranges, and movements.

I'm not saying the game is bad. I've played other games that were non-grid, and you have the same opportunities, but I was amazed at the laid-back approach to this that I encountered with the X-wing players I've met.

but I was amazed at the laid-back approach to this that I encountered with the X-wing players I've met.

Funny thing is, we take the current spot of a ship as absolute, even though pretty much everyone knows it's not where it actually should be...

If for example you watched the 2015 World champ match and saw Pauls move with the Falcon though the asteroid field and end up millimeters from one of them, which was a turning point in the game. It's almost a given that if you had a grid and were able to constantly line things up exactly that he would of been in a slightly different location and facing at that point.

But because it's pretty much impossible for ships not to get bumped we just accept it as part of the game, and don't worry about where things are "supposed to be" and accept they're where they're at.

That is however true for pretty much every other miniature table top game, because none of them use grids or the like, just tape measures.

but I was amazed at the laid-back approach to this that I encountered with the X-wing players I've met.

Funny thing is, we take the current spot of a ship as absolute, even though pretty much everyone knows it's not where it actually should be...

If for example you watched the 2015 World champ match and saw Pauls move with the Falcon though the asteroid field and end up millimeters from one of them, which was a turning point in the game. It's almost a given that if you had a grid and were able to constantly line things up exactly that he would of been in a slightly different location and facing at that point.

But because it's pretty much impossible for ships not to get bumped we just accept it as part of the game, and don't worry about where things are "supposed to be" and accept they're where they're at.

That is however true for pretty much every other miniature table top game, because none of them use grids or the like, just tape measures.

My miniatures experience has been overwhelmingly grid-based:

HeroClix

Star Wars Miniatures

HorrorClix

Monsterpocalypse

And then there are ones I never played:

Lord of the Rings

HeroScape

I think it all depends on one's personal experience.

IMHO 'Fly Casual' is playing to have fun for the group. For us it is still competitive but relaxed and occasionally forgiving.

This reminded me of something.

When I was buying my first ships and learning how to play the game, I remember thinking that the game lends itself to arguing. It's not played on a grid and depending on the surface on which you play, its possible for ships to get moved accidentally and it's just not a game of exact angles, ranges, and movements.

I'm not saying the game is bad. I've played other games that were non-grid, and you have the same opportunities, but I was amazed at the laid-back approach to this that I encountered with the X-wing players I've met.

The game is designed to not be so strict. Take a look at how TL, Boost, and BR work. Most game systems, when you declare an action, if you can't complete it due to range or space, you just lose the action. No do overs, just wasted effort. In X-wing they wisely decided to make it so that if you couldn't complete the action you just take a different one. It's fantastic.

I played 40k for several years, and in the edition i played in, (5th) you couldn't measure before your unit fired. So you declared your target, checked for range, or arc if it was a vehicle, and if you were 1mm short, you didn't fire at all, even if you had a different valid target that was within range. It was terrible. Now imagine if X-wing played the same way. If you declared you were attacking Howlrunner at the back of a swarm and she was jussssst out of R3, and then couldn't shoot any of the other closer ships in the swarm. Or your target is out of arc by just a hair, and can't shoot at another target.

Because, quite frankly, it was designed to be a casual game. When this game was being designed, FFG did not have a large tournament presence in their games. Sure, their LCGs had healthy tournaments, but their OP programs were insignificant, especially when compared to today. And from what I gather, I don't think the designer was super concerned with this game being a tournament game.

But, because of the massive success of X-wing and Netrunner, FFG is putting more thought into tournaments and OP programs. I've said it before, I don't think we will get new rules, but we might get a new rulebook that tightens some of the game rules into a more tournament friendly game. But, the basis of the range ruler and movement means that you won't have much fun if you are very anal about the millimeters.