The argument wasn't about rules, it was about "flying casual" in a sense.

This is what I'm talking about. Fly Casual seems to mean **** off on your phone and forget to drop focus or TL's and expect your opponent to let that **** slide. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

The argument wasn't about rules, it was about "flying casual" in a sense.

This is what I'm talking about. Fly Casual seems to mean **** off on your phone and forget to drop focus or TL's and expect your opponent to let that **** slide. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

As with anything, YMMV.

The argument wasn't about rules, it was about "flying casual" in a sense.

He asked me "If you were one who forgot, do you think I would let you take it back?" My response was "probably," which made me second guess myself, and feel like I big A**hole, but I still didn't let him go back. At that point he said something along the lines of that's the biggest D-bag move ever but OK. That's when I offered to concede, but he recanted his statement and still wanted me to play.

The correct answer is it's irrelevant if he would offer you a take back because you shouldn't accept it if you intend to hold him to the rules .

The argument wasn't about rules, it was about "flying casual" in a sense.

This is what I'm talking about. Fly Casual seems to mean **** off on your phone and forget to drop focus or TL's and expect your opponent to let that **** slide. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

Yeah, to me that means just being a dropkick. "Fly Casual" around here means not throwing tantrums when things go wrong, not gloating and being obnoxious when you win or spazzing out when you lose. Just generally acting like a decent person, in other words. It doesn't mean not playing by the rules. Whether that is the same elsewhere is a different question, but I've yet to encounter anyone trying to use "Fly Casual" as an excuse to bend the rules or cheat.

As with anything, YMMV.

It is a sentiment that is not uncommonly expressed in threads such as these on these very boards. More then a few posters have insinuated, if not directly stated, if you are expecting your opponent to play by the rules you aren't "Flying Casual".

To me shrugging off your own mistakes and not allowing your opponent to grant you a take back is a large part of a proper gaming mentality overall.

The argument wasn't about rules, it was about "flying casual" in a sense.

This is what I'm talking about. Fly Casual seems to mean **** off on your phone and forget to drop focus or TL's and expect your opponent to let that **** slide. Sorry, that doesn't fly.

Yeah, to me that means just being a dropkick. "Fly Casual" around here means not throwing tantrums when things go wrong, not gloating and being obnoxious when you win or spazzing out when you lose. Just generally acting like a decent person, in other words. It doesn't mean not playing by the rules. Whether that is the same elsewhere is a different question, but I've yet to encounter anyone trying to use "Fly Casual" as an excuse to bend the rules or cheat.

As with anything, YMMV.

It is a sentiment that is not uncommonly expressed in threads such as these on these very boards. More then a few posters have insinuated, if not directly stated, if you are expecting your opponent to play by the rules you aren't "Flying Casual".

To me shrugging off your own mistakes and not allowing your opponent to grant you a take back is a large part of a proper gaming mentality overall.

To be honest, I'm quite often not sure what people on the forum are intending to mean by "fly casual" as people are so vague about what they mean. My comment above was purely based on what I've encountered with the people I've played against here in NZ

I don't think I'm capable of taking this game too seriously, I roll so poorly even TL's struggle to net me 2 hits from 3 dice. I'm just in it for the models and for the background, if I win, it is a glorious day in the Empire, and then I listen to yub nub and dance with my fellow empire pilots.

The argument wasn't about rules, it was about "flying casual" in a sense.

He asked me "If you were one who forgot, do you think I would let you take it back?" My response was "probably," which made me second guess myself, and feel like I big A**hole, but I still didn't let him go back. At that point he said something along the lines of that's the biggest D-bag move ever but OK. That's when I offered to concede, but he recanted his statement and still wanted me to play.

If you wanted to really play by the rules and be a "rules nazi", you wouldn't take it back neither. Also, just stop using that kind of insulting adjectives for people who just want to play by the rules, i think you are able to figure out it is insulting and kind of idiotic, right ?

And yes, some people will find you pedantic by playing right. But after a few tournaments they will just come to you for rules questions and stuff, once they start figuring out you are not a pedantic son of a *****, but just a person who enjoys playing by and for the rules. Or atleast, the people who is worth a penny (luckily in my area, most people, casuals or not, won't hold grudge against you for playing by the rules).

Become a rule Nazi?

First off: this term bloody annoys me. Knowing the rules well is never a bad thing. If anything, it is the mark of a good player when he understands the rules properly and doesn't just muddle his way through the game.

Okay, with that out of my system:

So I guess my question is: how do I get better? Play more? Take it more seriously?

The former. The more you play, the more you learn, the better you get.

Actually if this was the case I'd be a gene-ass. Apparently I'm just an ass.

I actually find that it sucks the enjoyment out of my game when my opponent has no intention of winning. Or is playing the "lets throw dice and get so drunk we can't really actually think intelligently".

Now, I've been trying to make sure everyone has fun when we play, and we've been having a great time of it so far.

When my friend gets a little too carefree, I dig up the most ludicrous builds I can find and play those. Then we can really have a laugh.

Also, a note, Fel's Wrath is great. Like. Amazing. A++ meta rank. I don't know why nobody uses them. I guess I'm just smarter than them all. Watch out Worlds.

Of course 'fly casual' is a fuzzy concept, that's both inherent in the term and the originating quote. It's not about cheating, even if it is about blind eyes and bending rules.

Honestly, if it's a concept you don't 'get', then I doubt that I would enjoy playing with you, much less being your friend. It's about politeness and grace if nothing else. If those are not part of your social behavior, then more than likely you're an obnoxious person. Call that 'hippie xxxx', if you like, but I'm not interested in spending my free time with people who have no social graces or choose to turn them off just for the sake of winning at a plastic spaceships game.

I'm not saying I don't play to win - I do. That's a good part of the fun, but sharing the experience with like-minded people is what it's really about. If that's "care bears" for you... Um, get a real life.

Normally in our entire gaming group we 'know the rules' but also know that when you're having fun and chatting you sometimes forget to assign an action and move on to the next ship... noone ever has a problem is people go 'oh sorry i meant to evade the fourth tie out of the six that are evading, can i just put that action on now...even though i'm moving 'tie 6' '

We dont mind that the convention we have is that once we move to the shooting phase then it is too late to put on actions as you could potentially use a 'forgotten' barrel role to move out of a way of a well set up shot.

at the mo im 'training' to play in a local tourny so i'm asking my friends to be the *worst* type of player ever against me. dont remind me if i forget an action, correct any move they could *possibly* disagree with, call even a slightly uneven die in my favour 'cocked' and demand a re-roll etc.

I know im most likely not going to meet a player as fastiduous at the event but i want to prepare for the worst. I got slaughtered once and had a fairly bad loss in two games in the pub on friday (admittedly i was flying non upgraded X wings and Ys against non upgraded ties and vader as i wanted to only take ships, tokens and pilot cards... not hundreds of upgrades).

But it's me trying to tighten up my game so i dont forget action,. I was using Dutch and Luke in one game and passing dutchs target lock pretty much made me forget to give luke an action *every* time as in my mind putting a target lock on luke was giving him his action. Likewise i kept forgetting wedges ability to remove a green die.

On the other side though i did keep reminding mark when he forgot to add howlrunners extra die to shots from neighbouring ties.

I dont think my mate Mark really liked 'playing strictly by the rules' as were both really easy going guys who would rather have a fun flowing game than constantly pick each other up on errors.. but i realise that organised play isnt played by that mindset and its totally ok for a player at an event to say 'no you cant put evade on Tie 4 as you've started moving tie 5 now'.

I just need to get used to that so if i do meet the 'opponent from hell' it doesnt bother me.

We've got a simple house rule if you forget your action you did a focus, its simple and doesn't punish you too harshly, it may of been more beneficial to barrel roll or evade etc but you forgot so you get the focus.

I was thinking about quoting everyone who has been insulting in this thread to any kind of competitive player, because it is extremely hilarious how the people talking about being "less of an ass" are being complete dicks in this thread. But then i realized i shouldn't waste my time, and just pointed it out so you can get in your head that playing by the rules does not mean you are an obnoxious person, that you don't fly casual, that you are not a forty year old virgin living on a basement, etc, etc etc. But hey, if circlejerking about it helps you guys to sleep at night, sure, continue with your therapy.

Personally, I'm shocked anyone is taking this thread seriously. This is, what, the fourth iteration of these type of threads/posters. Some basic history of this forum should realize what is going on, and what the true goal of this thread is.

There was a story from the World Championships of someone setting the wrong move on a dial which would have flown them off the board and their opponent offered to let them change the move. At Worlds!

Doesn't get much more cordial and casual.

Exactly this.

Worlds was eye opening for me. As someone who's played in a lot of MTG tournaments and who's been around enough 40k people to know their general attitudes...let's just say x-wing players are like Harry Potters in a sea of Dudley Dursleys.

I think we, as tournament players, reserve the right to play to win, because that's what tournaments are about. But we play to win with a "fly casual" attitude. When Paul Heaver was about to boost off the board his opponent offered to let him do something else during the top 8.

If that's not an example of "fly casual" I don't know what is.

But if you don't like people playing to win, don't play tournaments I guess.

I think people are confusing playing to win with winning being the only important thing.

We arnt slamming tournament winners but the people that throw stuff around when their losing or Salk or get needlessly aggressive over a game.

You can play to win and still fly casual, well most of us can some people take things too far and that's who we are talkin about.

I think people are confusing playing to win with winning being the only important thing.

I agree, in fact I'd take it a step farther.

There's playing to win, there's winning is the only thing that matters, and then there's win at all costs.

There's nothing wrong with playing to win, in fact I wouldn't find the game very enjoyable if both sides weren't actually trying to win.

Winning is the only thing that matters, that's an issue, but that's also almost completely an issue of personality, and there's little you can do about that. The question is what happens if they don't? Some people will shrug it off, others will throw chairs. Once you know what type of person you're dealing with you can act accordingly.

If you're truly dealing with a Win-At-All-Costs type, then the only thing to do typically is not play with them. Because you'll rarely find you enjoy the game.

Then there's a 4th type, which IMO can be but isn't always as bad as the WAAC types... the Militantly Casual player. The type of person who gets upset and in some cases may behave as badly as a sore loser when you violate their unwritten rules of X-Wing. They may even go as far as having a fit when you don't let them take back a move or fix a mistake. Or sit and sulk when you use a tactic that they consider cheap or cheesy.

I'm a mix of both, and I think a lot of people are.

I like to win, and I love spending hours making lists and working out synergy and practicing flying a list.

But, I enjoy playing the game so much that I still don't really care if I do lose. And I take Fly Casual to quite the extreme in games as I'll let people take actions after the fact and things like that.

I think people are confusing playing to win with winning being the only important thing.

I agree, in fact I'd take it a step farther.There's playing to win, there's winning is the only thing that matters, and then there's win at all costs.There's nothing wrong with playing to win, in fact I wouldn't find the game very enjoyable if both sides weren't actually trying to win.Winning is the only thing that matters, that's an issue, but that's also almost completely an issue of personality, and there's little you can do about that. The question is what happens if they don't? Some people will shrug it off, others will throw chairs. Once you know what type of person you're dealing with you can act accordingly.If you're truly dealing with a Win-At-All-Costs type, then the only thing to do typically is not play with them. Because you'll rarely find you enjoy the game.Then there's a 4th type, which IMO can be but isn't always as bad as the WAAC types... the Militantly Casual player. The type of person who gets upset and in some cases may behave as badly as a sore loser when you violate their unwritten rules of X-Wing. They may even go as far as having a fit when you don't let them take back a move or fix a mistake. Or sit and sulk when you use a tactic that they consider cheap or cheesy.

I ran into someone of the fourth type at Regionals. It was a really unfortunate experience for me to see that.

In a casual game I'll allow mistakes to be taken back as a matter of course, if I did enter a tournament I'd be less forgiving but I wouldn't demand a ship 1mm over the edge be removed or that a ship with ACD not be allowed to cloak if the other guy forgot to place the token.

But that's me funs more important than winning even with prizes on the line, I do understand not everyone shares that view.

I'm no saint though if I were playing some obnoxious WaaC player that was annoying me I'd totally go rules lawyer.

In a casual game I'll allow mistakes to be taken back as a matter of course, if I did enter a tournament I'd be less forgiving but I wouldn't demand a ship 1mm over the edge be removed or that a ship with ACD not be allowed to cloak if the other guy forgot to place the token.

But that's me funs more important than winning even with prizes on the line, I do understand not everyone shares that view.

I'm no saint though if I were playing some obnoxious WaaC player that was annoying me I'd totally go rules lawyer.

Let's see.

For example this last weekend at a tournament. A player does a barrel roll that puts him outside the table, they ask me about the rule specifics, i tell them that the TIe fighter is out. The player accepts it and continues to play. Later that game, the other player does a k-turn while stressed. They ask me again about the rules, i answer you can choose whatever you want from the dial. The guy decides to send that Tie fighter (they were playing swarm vs swarm) outside the table.

Well, the guy who is normally at tournaments (first player) is just fine with both the barrel roll, and obviously, sending the tie fighter outside the table. The second player, who is a more casual player with a laid back attitude gets quite mad (he went outside ranted a bit here and there, until i talked with him to make him chill out) because he says that he wouldn't had sent the ship outside the table if it was the case if the other guy did the mistake. Having the wrong expectations is everything.

Why do i bring this up ? On a past thread, people in this forums even said that sending a ship outside the table (which is completely covered in the rules) would be an unsport. For me, being the unsport is not sending the ship outside the table because it is condescending. So who is right ? Not me or the forum posters, but the one who makes the call, while he follows the rules is right, because it is the only single point we can really agree with. And if he decides not to follow the rules (allowing his opponent for a mistake, etc), it is also in the rules as his right to decide. I mean, there is no room to wiggle around.

But i do not know, my experience seems to vary a lot with the majority, where i had really not seen a person being a ****. What i had seen is people who just don't enjoy playing each other having little fights here and there, but those people only play each other at tournaments, and that's perfectly fine, luckily on tournaments they already know what to expect. It is kind of interesting (as somebody who plays with everybody) to see that it's more that they don't really enjoy each others companies, gaming or not, than a problem with the rules or one of them being a "nazi ruler" or whatever, which are just used as an the excuse.

And i think i shouldn't say it, but most people say (casuals or not) that is a pleasure play with me, and i play with everybody. I am what you would think of a rules nazi or whatever, but i am not a **** about it, i point it out, if i think my opponent just didn't know it, i would allow him to correct, or even tell him how the rule works before i see him making a movement or something. But of course, i won't do that on a tournament, not because i am desperatly trying to win, but because if you are playing strangers, you should know the rules. It's common courtesy. And interestingly enough i don't get called any names, while i would had sent the ship outside the table aswell.

What i see here, it seems people who actually don't really play a lot of tournaments, because some bad experience in the past, or because they have the wrong expectations projected into others, talking about ghosts (assholes) that don't really exists in the Xwing scene. And that's why i brought up the example of tournament winners, because most people is that way. What i argue, and i will argue against, is about forcing your expectations into others, because otherwise you will be labelled as a "rules nazi, dickhead, insert random insult."

Otherwise, if your experience varies, please tell us what had you seen players doing in your zones making you feel uncomfortable with, because i haven't read in this thread a single thing yet to be honest, and i think it is fine to point out what you would think is a bad behaviour, so maybe i can understand you better.

Apologies for my english.

Apologies for my english.

No worries, man.

I was thinking about quoting everyone who has been insulting in this thread to any kind of competitive player, because it is extremely hilarious how the people talking about being "less of an ass" are being complete dicks in this thread. But then i realized i shouldn't waste my time, and just pointed it out so you can get in your head that playing by the rules does not mean you are an obnoxious person, that you don't fly casual, that you are not a forty year old virgin living on a basement, etc, etc etc. But hey, if circlejerking about it helps you guys to sleep at night, sure, continue with your therapy.

You're absolutely right. Threads like this are intended to broadcast a code of preferred conduct. It creates an expectation, and if you deviate from that expectation you are considered obnoxious. That's what social norms are all about, and this forum is one medium by which those norms are spread.

Where we differ is that most of us (it seems) embrace the social norms implied by 'fly casual', whereas you seem to be someone who would prefer that the only rules of the interaction are those that are written black on white in the game's rulebook. I don't think that yours is a healthy attitude towards life, but fortunately I don't have to interact with you at the gaming table.

I would make an addendum to what's being said about 'fly casual'. I also think that 'fly casual' implies generosity of spirit, which includes accepting your own errors with grace. You should not presume that your opponent will let you off the hook. It should come entirely from their generosity of spirit to let you off the hook.

For example this last weekend at a tournament. A player does a barrel roll that puts him outside the table, they ask me about the rule specifics, i tell them that the TIe fighter is out.

Now, I'm just trying to understand. I know that a barrel roll is not allowed if it would have you overlap another ship or obstacle. I figured this would also cover the edges of the play area. However, the rule (on pg. 8, with the errata change from the FAQ in bold) does not state that. It reads:

A ship cannot perform a barrel roll if this would cause its base to overlap

another ship or obstacle token, or if the maneuver template overlaps an

obstacle token. The player may measure to see if his ship can perform

a barrel roll before committing to this action.

Under 'Fleeing the Battlefield' (pg. 17), it does say:

If a ship executes a maneuver that causes any part

of its base to go outside the play area (beyond any

edge), then that ship has fled the battlefield. Unless

specified by a mission overview, ships that flee the

battlefield are immediately destroyed.

But does 'a maneuver' refer to a Barrel Roll (or a Boost, for that matter)?

For my own part, I would prefer that the rule would state that a Barrel Roll (or Boost) that would move a ship outside of the Play Area would be illegal, and therefore cannot be done, rather than that it immediately removes the ship from play. (I also understand that sometimes it might even be in the player's benefit to remove a certain ship from play, of that ship's position would cause a more valuable ship to bugger up.

But does someone know what the official ruling on this is, and where I might look this up?

Where we differ is that most of us (it seems) embrace the social norms implied by 'fly casual', whereas you seem to be someone who would prefer that the only rules of the interaction are those that are written black on white in the game's rulebook.

No a lot of us believe that Fly Casual is not an excuse to ignore the rules, or to make up new rules. Unwritten rules are just that, unwritten and no one can really be expected to abide by the same set you do. Unless they're part of your social group and have had a chance to learn them that is.

But does someone know what the official ruling on this is, and where I might look this up?

Yes right here, on page 17 of the FAQ.

Q:

Can a ship decloak or perform a boost or barrel roll action that would cause it to go outside the play area (and thus flee the battlefield)?

A:

Yes. If a player performs a boost or barrel roll that causes it to go outside the play area, it flees the battlefield and is immediately destroyed.

Also as they were playing in a tournament, and it sounds like DreadStar was the TO or a judge anyway, he called the ruling correctly... Also the rules don't actually allow for one player to let the other player take back a move, so once a barrel roll was declared, and found to put the ship off the edge, then there's no taking that back, per the rules. Even if the other guy wanted to, technically it's not an option he had.

Last page of the FAQ, second question, covers barrel rolling off the map.

Edit: Ninjas!

But does someone know what the official ruling on this is, and where I might look this up?

Yes right here, on page 17 of the FAQ.

Cool, thanks for that!

Where we differ is that most of us (it seems) embrace the social norms implied by 'fly casual', whereas you seem to be someone who would prefer that the only rules of the interaction are those that are written black on white in the game's rulebook.

No a lot of us believe that Fly Casual is not an excuse to ignore the rules, or to make up new rules. Unwritten rules are just that, unwritten and no one can really be expected to abide by the same set you do. Unless they're part of your social group and have had a chance to learn them that is

So for you 'Fly Casual' is just about maintaining one's temper?

I do think that a social group (ie. a community) inevitably develops unwritten norms of conduct. I'm no sociologist, but I do believe that this is part of the definition of a community as opposed to a society, which is a broader category of group which need not have those unwritten norms, but relies on the formal rules.

I would hazard that most of us prefer to be a part of a community, which operates by unwritten rules in which we are able to show eachother social graces, rather than a legalistic society in which all our limitations are defined in black and white. Sure, the latter gives us more to be certain about in terms of the way we play our games, but it also removes a level of certainty about the degree to which we are indeed a community.

That's not to say that I don't understand that at highly competitive tournaments there need to be black and white rulings that resolve disputes without doubt.

Then there's a 4th type, which IMO can be but isn't always as bad as the WAAC types... the Militantly Casual player. The type of person who gets upset and in some cases may behave as badly as a sore loser when you violate their unwritten rules of X-Wing. They may even go as far as having a fit when you don't let them take back a move or fix a mistake. Or sit and sulk when you use a tactic that they consider cheap or cheesy.

I agree with you that this type is also very undesirable, because they're trying to be a social free-rider. They're counting on your magnanimity, rather than trying to be their best and accept their objective loss with grace. It's kind of like they're being a welfare bum, rather than someone who is authentically a poor schlepp who could stand to be helped out a bit.

It's hard to really draw distinct understandings of the difference between all these. As I said earlier, 'Fly Casual' is a inherently fuzzy concept.

I guess the rule of thumb is to know your social environment. If you're at a tournament with people you don't know, who are not new to the game (ie. being socialized into the X-Wing playing community), then 'Fly Casual' is just about taking your losses and victories with grace. If you're with your mates at the pub or at the FLGS, then 'Fly Casual' has a deeper meaning which allows you to bend or blind-eye the rules in order to make the game more fun.