Greetings, brethern,

one of my players is tooting a shotgun, so I had to read the "scatter" rules. "As written", the "scatter" ability only comes into play at "point blank range"... which is under 3 meters. On any other distance, the weapons does not has any benefit. I read the Errata (III) and found nothing about this.

Am I missing something? Right at the moment, I perceive this as a "buck" and would substitue "point black range" with "short range". But is there anything in the errata or the rules I am missing?

Thank you!

Gregorius21778 said:

The scatter rule is a brutal one; against unarmoured targets at extremely close range, shotguns are some of the deadliest weapons available, especially on a rapid-firing shotgun (either the auto shotgun in the rulebook, or the even nastier vanaheim-pattern one in The Inquisitor's Handbook) where the number of hits can rapidly become insane.

Changing the scatter rule's benefit to kick in at short range would, IMO, make it rather too potent; it is, by all other standards, a cheap and plentiful Dam 1d10+4 I weapon, which isn't exactly bad in its own right...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Gregorius21778 said:

Semi or full auto is very useless on Scatter weapons. In fact try to get no Scatter on auto weapons! I'll explain...

"Reliable" ways to use basic Scatter weapons up close are

• acrobatic disengage then shoot,
• melee manoeuvre action then shoot (the cinematic "kick/push opponent away then (aim and) shoot"),
• you move into point blank range but don't engage (probably at most once per encountered enemy).

These all allow single shots only.

Then there are

• enemy stops in point blank range but not engaged (not your choice),
• enemy is stunned (probably not by you as it requires a full action and doesn't last long),
• encounter oddly starts at point blank but not melee range.

Only these would allow semi or full auto fire on your turn.

However in these situations you would be better advised to carry (or Quick Draw switch to) an autogun with double the hits for DoS (and two extra hits just for the +20 bonus), less chance to dodge and no penalty at longer range. The combat shotgun with just semi auto fire and Scatter is in every way inferior to the autogun in its application as a full round action.

Even the Vanaheim is pretty much a waste of technology compared to the combination of a standard (pump-action) shotgun for the former with an autogun (or if you got the talents, dual-wielding Hecuters) for the latter situations. Compared to the autogun, you gain additional Scatter hits in the very unlikely situation of using full auto fire at a distance between 1 and 3 metres and lose: range, damage at range, Suppressing Fire, Overwatch. It's just not reasonable to carry around a weapon so restricted in its application.

Gregorius21778 said:

Yes, rapid-fire weapons are deadly against unarmoured targets... but they also require a full-action to fire in such a way, while a shotgun doesn't.

And that's only when talking about the standard 60 throne shotgun. Even the basic autopistol is more expensive than that.

It's also one of the cheapest 1d10+4 weapons in the game; as effective as an autogun might be against an unarmoured human ganger... you start to face more resilient adversaries, and the extra damage the shotgun provides, particularly at close range, makes up for it until you're able to train in the use of more specialised weaponry (three shots dealing 7 damage each is worthless against a TB3 human in Guard Flak... two hits at 9 damage each works out as four wounds overall against that same target). Rate of fire is nice for dealing lots of damage... but those individual hits need to be able to hurt the target first. The +2 damage compared to the autopistol can make a worthwhile difference, particular for a weapon that is cheaper in the first place.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yes a half action single Scatter shot (with a red dot) is wonderful. You gain extra hits where you otherwise wouldn't. See above for how to make it possible.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I disagree here. Not only is there still some randomness so that more hits/dice with just 1 or 2 less bonus damage are very likely dealing more damage total - and it gets better with every DoS of the enemy's dodge. More hits/dice also mean a higher chance at Rightous Fury (then likely close to full damage since Armor+Toughness Bonus is already subtracted). But autoguns and autopistols can also use manstoppers to make them do more damage per hit in your scenarios (unless it's all Toughness Bonus).

The autopistol is just 15 Thrones more and as readily available, lasts longer, requires a round less to reload and can be used at any range between 0 and 120 metres for the same damage per hit (their number may of course decrease with the modifiers). It is in most ways superior. Any weapon with Scatter (on single shot mode) is really only better at a range of 1-3 metres AND when you lack the full action to fire a burst. Or if you can't affort the extra Throne for the bullets. Or if you fear the jams.

Shotsguns are cheap. Very useful single-shot to gain extra hits on a half action. Not much more than this. When full actions are possible (even at point blank range) you better draw a full auto basic weapon, two full auto pistols or use half aim+single Accurate shots.

Oh and I don't consider it a bug. Just know when to use Scatter most effectively.

Chester said:

So, by your estimation, greater individual damage (righteous fury aside - it can't be guaranteed, and for NPCs is for all intents and purposes an optional rule) is worthless? A creature able to ignore the first twelve damage from any given hit cannot be harmed by an autopistol at all. In such a situation, a shotgun is infinitely more effective, simply because it can deal damage.

Beyond all that, the number of arguments I've heard regarding equipment are almost as diverse as those regarding psychic powers (which range from the complaint that they're too dangerous to risk to the complaint that they're not dangerous enough to discourage overuse). Some people have expressed an opinion that specialist ammo is too expensive for the average Acolyte to afford, while others go ahead and assume that every autogun has Manstoppers (personally, I houserule that Manstoppers can be used with Shotguns as well, at the cost of losing Scatter - you get the choice of normal shot or an armour-piercing slug). I've heard arguments that there's no point doing anything but rushing forwards and unleashing blasts of autofire scattershot as soon as possible because it's so effective, and now arguments that shotguns are apparently worthless beyond 3m.

The fact of the matter is that it is all a matter of personal opinion; there is no fact beyond that. The potential range of adversaries and situations that a character could concievably face in any given adventure or campaign is so large that sooner or later you'll find a context for every weapon, and a player that prefers one type of weapon over others regardless of how effective others percieve it to be.

Personally, I feel that Shotguns are exactly what they need to be - cheap and solid and effective at close ranges. In the Imperial Guard game I'm playing in (as opposed to the campaigns I've run), my character hauls around a shotgun alongside his standard issue lasgun. The lasgun does the trick 90% of the time - the range, reliability, availability of ammunition and rate of fire make it a dependable weapon in the majority of circumstances... but for that remaining 10% of the time, when scrambling through trenches or clearing buildings (at less than 10m, the lasgun's 100m range isn't of any real benefit), a shotgun's increased lethality at very close range makes it a superior choice while the lack of punch of an autopistol round wouldn't get the job done.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

No it's just my opinion that you usually don't carry around a weapon which is only better at 2-3 metres range and if the enemy has somewhere between 10 and 12 TB (or armor if no manstoppers). What sells the shotgun to me is the half action use I described. And if I am to carry a Scatter weapon for it, it may as well be a good one - so I may loot a better Scatter weapon but I won't pay for one because the Scatter single shot is all I need. But that aside, Scatter weapons (with the reduced nominal and effective range) are normally bested by other weapons. Which is ok with me.

The price difference between an autopistol (or stub automatic) and a shotgun is negligible, even for NPCs: a shotgun alone will never do because of the melee restriction for Basic weapons. By getting a weapon you can use in other situations you might actually save money (and time spent drawing).

I can imagine to carry around all sorts of weapons for different situations (depending on talents, enemy weapon arsenal, Catch Projectiles, ect.) but I also try to cover as many situations with as few weapons as possible. That's why a Vanaheim is too specialized IMO, you'd still need to carry its alternatives at point blank range to cover the other situations (melee and range >60m, with its advantage lost already at >3m). I currently *do* carry a shotgun because I can put it to very good use with the Acrobatics skill and ain't got the talents and equipment yet to make melee or dual wielding pistols a better option. But because I try to stay reasonable with how many weapons I carry, it will sooner or later get dropped. With even less opportunity to bring about situations to use it (more effectively than its alternatives), it may not even find its way into a NPC's arsenal. Coincidently, there are way more NPCs with stub automatics, autopistols or autoguns than shotguns.

Well, i agree to NO-1_H3R3 here. Some people love shotguns due to their firepower (only the Armageddon has as much punch), their looks and of course the non-sense you can make. Put one of the double-barreled shotguns into an NPCs face directly before his eyes and ask him if he wants to see 'the light at the end of the tunnel'. No autogun/-pistol could be used for that cheap but still frightening gag.

Oh, and have you ever considered overwatch with a Vanaheim? Good Emperor, what a lot of dice to roll!

Not to mention, the choice of weapons also says something about the character. A hive-ganger feels much safer with an old used shotgun than with a manufactorium-new lasgun. why the hell would he need a weapon with such a range? the shotguns range is good enough, and hurts more. for longer distances players often tend to use hunting rifles/longlas'.

And if you want an autogun and a shotgun at the same time buy a Spectre.

Honestly i find the scatter rule too short ranged to be realistic. I uses a house rule so the Scatter Rule will will also be valid at Short Range, too. Thats still only 15m. Not much compared to other SP weapons.

Regards

Wolflord

An Assassin (low experience) character of mine has racked up bodies with a Combat Shotgun with Laser sight. Why?

Single Shot mode gives a +10 bonus to hit, anything within 15m gets a further bonus for half of range of the weapon (short range), anything 3m or under gets Point Blank bonuses AND Scatter multiple hits.

Fire two single shots and we have +30/+30 (With two degrees of success equaling another hit) at point blank. Devestating.

Personally, due to the nature of buckshot, I think the shotgun should get Tearing as a quality, but whatever.

Another key to remember about all of this carnage is the ammo capacity. Where the Autogun burns through 10 rounds at a time, forcing someone to reload after 3 long bursts, the Combat Shotgun can Single Shot (At a +10 with a laser sight, no less) more than enough to clear out a group of people. Two shots a round, and we have a winner here.

15m or below, I'll use the Combat Shotgun. Anything over that, I'll use the Autogun.

Kruniac said:

Yes, while a normal shot is a half action that does not mean you can fire two single shots in one round. Only on attack action may be made each round, swift attack and lighting attack being the exception, in melee only.

This has probably been said already but... shotguns are effective up to double their written range (60m?) The buckshot is represented by their better damage than autoguns and other rifles. In fact, they are better than in RL as their better damage also mean they penetrate armor easier.

On medium range the buckshot scatter too much and loses almost all penetration.. but the damage remain the same (also better than RL)

On extreme short range (3 meter) the shotgun rips a man in two just as if fired upon by alot of autofire.... X 1d10+4 hits is nasty, especially considering the weapons low cost and availability.

My fix has been to modify the scatter rules as follows:

At point blank you score an extra hit for one degree of success. At close range you score an extra hit per two degrees of success.

Works like a charm for my game.

Personally, at ranges longer than PB, the shotgun should not do more damage. Remember, each scatter is another die, just like multiple bullets firing semi/full auto. Outside of PB range, the pellets are really too spread out to have the effective impact of an entirely new shot/bullet. Scatter at PB is there because the short confined area makes the small spread of the pellets much more lethal because it damages a larger area than a bullet, with as much force as a bullet (if not more). Once you get beyond PB range, the increased spread, plus reduced force, just doesn't have the same effect. I might give an additional bonus to hit at short range due to the spread being more likely to cause damage, but I doubt more damage at short range is reasonable. Besides, this unbalances the shotgun, since you're basically allowing the shotgun to fire semi/full auto with only a half action within short range, which is typically well within the range of the majority of firefights.

If you want to beef shotguns a bit, why not allow players to roll for location as well as reversing the digits, choosing which one they want, at short range to represent the pellet spread? It's a throwback to the Necromunda rules where scattershot ignored cover, but it's not so powerful that it kills the called shot talents.

Ooo... I kind of like the idea you just suggested, although not the one you were intending. Allow shotguns to reduce (or ignore?) cover inside short range. To make it not too OP, I'd probably halve any cover ... but it's workable. A reroll of hit location isn't a bad idea either, though.

I thought about that, but decided ignoring cover is a bit much, especially if they're in full cover (nothing poking out). Spread isn't going to go through a rockcrete wall, but it does stand a better chance of hitting the guy with his arm and head poking out from behind it to shoot. Thus rerolling hit location (and rolling until you get something different if necessary, effectively randomizing two different locations). If you don't want to roll that much, go to the multiple hits chart and take the 3rd hit for each location (as IIRC, the 2nd location is the same as the first).

All this assumes buckshot. What if you're using slug? Flechette rounds? What if your shotgun has a choke? What if it's a sawed-off?

Old Shadowrunner, ey?

Well, as a GM i would treat Flechette like DumDums, and Slugs as Man-stoppers, to simplify things. Of course, than they loose the Scatter quality.

Actually no, never played shadowrun.

But there's no reason flechette wouldn't scatter, although obviously slug wouldn't. Perhaps you could have flechette do scatter damage at medium range as well, to represent tha fact that it's longer-ranged than shot? And flechette, depending on how big etc, would do piercing... And slug is brutal to unarmoured opponents, so it would make more sense for it to be slug = dum-dum and flechetter...I dunno how flechette would work. Scattering man-stoppers at medium range seems a tad overpowered, but then I'm a realism > game balance guy and I like systesm with realistic weapon rules.

Hyper-Density Penetrators in the IH are basically slugs. Tearing and a chance at knockback and +2 Pen., but no scatter are pretty good ways to represent the effects of a slug. They're pretty pricey, but I guess making a slug that can tear through 40k armor when fired from a shotgun is expensive. Maybe let player buy a cheap version without the armor penetration and call that a slug.

I don't see them as needing to be modified, though. They're a close-combat weapon, and a very effective one within their niche. In that, they're much like flamers.

Well, you may see them as overpowered but I have yet to see them around often. When I'm a player, in the situations where I might be packing things of the shotgun/autogun/rifle size, I'm typically packing a D'lakku hellgun or a blinged out armageddon, and a carnodon or Hecuter 9/5. We had one guy who carried around a Vanaheim before giving it up for a Spectre, and everyone else has experimented with shotguns and given them up pretty quick, or never bothered with them in the first place.

Not overpowered, just powerful. Basically, the more close combat you see, the better they are. Being able to fire off a PBR blast with scatter as a half-action is quite useful when an enemy is actively working to keep you in melee. Full-auto with one is also a great opening move for a close-combat character.

Well I'm still not seeing them as powerful. Maybe I'm particularly obtuse tonight but I'm still thinking that an Armageddon with Manstoppers or JHP is better.