I dont know if somebody has alredy suggested this but... Could it be a fix to release a title that makes the advance able to shoot twice every round? At 0 points I mean, just for not making a rule that automatically gives one ship a special ability.

I thought about this after playing rogue leader. You get to use the tie advanced in two missions, and I noticed that, even if it has only 2 laser cannons, it has a very high fire rate. Then, i think this fix could make this a more unique ship, without more obvious fixes like the "+1 attack dice" thing, which will nearly convert it into an imperial X-wing. This will make the ship equivalent in firepower to 2 regular ties, at the cost of 3 points less than the two ties (talking about academy pilots vs PS2 advanced)

Also, imagine Maarek Stele being able to attack twice a round with the EPT marksmanship. It could be able to deal two crits in one round with some luck.

Thoughts? Hope to hear from the master-mathwinger

Interesting idea, though I don't know that I'll run the numbers on it. It would mathematically be extremely close to simply giving the ship an extra attack die. 3 attack dice is ~70% more damage than 2 attack dice, so adding a 2nd 2-dice attack would probably actually be slightly better than giving a 3rd dice. You would essentially have the same tradeoffs with the 3 attack options.

It would be additionally effective against low AGI ships but worse against high AGI ships. Also, at point blank range, two 3 dice attacks would be quite brutal. Two attacks also has the ability to clear defensive tokens for the second attack, though given the low quality of the attacks, I'm not sure how much an effect this would have.

Maarek+Marksmanship would be a strong synergy, but in addition Maarek could have an Experimental Interface to still grab defensive tokens or do some arc dodging. Likewise, Vader+marksmanship+EI could be very powerful though I wonder if dropping Engine Upgrade would be worth the trade.

I really like this idea.

The best idea I've heard is a title something like:

Advanced Targeting System: Discard a blue target lock to add 1 red dice to your attack.

While adding a red dice without modification isn't great, since it is a TL you save it up from previous turns, or combo with PtL, Vader, Squad Leader, Jendon and Fleet Officer. It sort of makes them up 2.5 attack dice or thereabouts. Note I think you make it so that the TL doesn't have to be on the ship you are shooting in order to remove at least some restrictions on it.

Is it enough, not sure, but then again the Advanced was costed against the X-wing originally, when it should have been costed against the Interceptor instead. If both the Interceptor and Advanced were 18 points base, then one would be the offensive glass cannon and the other it's tanky reverse counterpart. Much more interesting dynamic then. They could have left Vader at his current cost and given him the named Falcon treatment where his ship had 3 attack dice base.

So - what does the math say on the official fix?

I'll let you know when I get a chance to run some numbers.

It's an interesting fix, and similar to what you had proposed. They give an up to 4 point discount system slot, you had a free FCS and 2.5-1 point discount.

Both are variable discounts and added system upgrades, with the same range of discount.

*edit

One interesting thing is going to be the accuracy corrector. I think that when you looked at that upgrade you said it would be an excellent upgrade for any 2-attack ship, maybe an auto-include. But if you take the acc. corrector on an advanced, you lose out on two points of discount. Does that put it on more of an even footing with other systems upgrades?

remember, its not a refit like the a-wing. it doesn't grant 'additional' squad points. It grants a discount on upgrades.

remember, its not a refit like the a-wing. it doesn't grant 'additional' squad points. It grants a discount on upgrades.

Right; it's not a straight 4 point discount. The discount varies depending which system you select. Could be a 1-point discount for enhanced sensors, or 4 points for a sensor jammer. That may make analysis tricky.

The two scenarios that I will analyze later are:

1) Getting Accuracy Corrector for free, which is identical to Scenario #3 but with 2 points shaven off of my analysis. This will give the generics a jousting value around roughly 100%. Steele will be around 96%, and Vader around 110% 107%. (Simple ratios, easy to compute by hand, except for Vader).

2) Taking Advanced Targeting Computer for 1 point. The math here is complicated because you don't spend your target lock during the attack, so this will work best on ships with lots of HP. Once you have the Target Lock in the queue, it is obviously better than having 3 native attack dice, since you add a crit result, not merely adding a die. So the best comparison to this analysis will be scenario #3: +1 attack at +1 cost. FFG's fix will almost certainly be a bigger boost than the scenario #4. The cost is identical but the attack power is higher. Vader is going to be able to best utilize the Advanced Targeting Computer with 2 actions, so expect him to easily be the best TIE Advanced pilot. 30 points at PS9 for what is essentially something like a 3.5/3/3/2 stat line.

remember, its not a refit like the a-wing. it doesn't grant 'additional' squad points. It grants a discount on upgrades.

Right; it's not a straight 4 point discount. The discount varies depending which system you select. Could be a 1-point discount for enhanced sensors, or 4 points for a sensor jammer. That may make analysis tricky.

It's an interesting fix, and similar to what you had proposed. They give an up to 4 point discount system slot, you had a free FCS and 2.5-1 point discount.

Both are variable discounts and added system upgrades, with the same range of discount.

*edit

One interesting thing is going to be the accuracy corrector. I think that when you looked at that upgrade you said it would be an excellent upgrade for any 2-attack ship, maybe an auto-include. But if you take the acc. corrector on an advanced, you lose out on two points of discount. Does that put it on more of an even footing with other systems upgrades?

You also miss out on Adv. Targeting Computer, which is pretty awesome, but conditional.

The two scenarios that I will analyze later are:

1) Getting Accuracy Corrector for free, which is identical to Scenario #3 but with 2 points shaven off of my analysis. This will give the generics a jousting value around roughly 100%. Steele will be around 96%, and Vader around 110%. (Simple ratios, easy to compute by hand).

2) Taking Advanced Targeting Computer for 1 point. The math here is complicated because you don't spend your target lock during the attack, so this will work best on ships with lots of HP. Once you have the Target Lock in the queue, it is obviously better than having 3 native attack dice, since you add a crit result, not merely adding a die. So the best comparison to this analysis will be scenario #3: +1 attack at +1 cost. FFG's fix will almost certainly be a bigger boost than the scenario #4. The cost is identical but the attack power is higher. Vader is going to be able to best utilize the Advanced Targeting Computer with 2 actions, so expect him to easily be the best TIE Advanced pilot. 30 points at PS9 for what is essentially something like a 3.5/3/3/2 stat line.

Already excited juggling with my advanced. Hue hue.

My puns are tearable.

Scary to think the Alonzen pilot will have an auto target lock on anyone in Range 1, with effectively FOUR attack die where one is always a crit... that should make it better include than Accuracy Corrector?

Scary to think the Alonzen pilot will have an auto target lock on anyone in Range 1, with effectively FOUR attack die where one is always a crit... that should make it better include than Accuracy Corrector?

My humble opinion:

If you can take advantage of action economy with Vader or the new guy, the Advanced Targeting Computer is going to be "THE CARD". Basic Advanceds may better use some other upgrades such as Accuracy corrector. 2 autodamage allows nice turtling without spending offensive actions.

PS: So Vader targetlocks the Decimator/Falcon, and from this point, he could start the focus + evade carousel every single turn. Moving last, of course. Vader got what he deserved; it's going to be played.

I do think Vader in particular would like the adv comp, if only because proton rockets are difficult to enable on him (in the case that you're using AC for non-ordinance atttacks and an ept such as outmanuever) unless you slap on EU

ADV TC gives Vader license to steam-roll through the opposition with 3 agility coupled with focus + dodge and a TL you only have to establish once per target

NOW we understand why Vader, who could easily have "Force-targeted" everyone and their sister, bothered to establish a lock-on every time before he blasted somebody.

Not to mention the reason why his ship was so dangerous, when up to now it has been nothing but an irritant with an overqualified pilot.

I think this power creep is designed to sell huge ships. I don't believe the tempest was 4 points overcosted no matter what some poor model says.

I think this power creep is designed to sell huge ships. I don't believe the tempest was 4 points overcosted no matter what some poor model says.

the players have been crying out for the TIE Advanced to be fixed since Wave 2 nearly two years ago. This isn't a nefarious scheme by the designers to sell huge ships (well, not entirely, heh).

Scary to think the Alonzen pilot will have an auto target lock on anyone in Range 1, with effectively FOUR attack die where one is always a crit... that should make it better include than Accuracy Corrector?

My humble opinion:

If you can take advantage of action economy with Vader or the new guy, the Advanced Targeting Computer is going to be "THE CARD". Basic Advanceds may better use some other upgrades such as Accuracy corrector. 2 autodamage allows nice turtling without spending offensive actions.

PS: So Vader targetlocks the Decimator/Falcon, and from this point, he could start the focus + evade carousel every single turn. Moving last, of course. Vader got what he deserved; it's going to be played.

Overall, you should have very similar results to an Accuracy Corrector at Range 2-3, and significantly better results at Range 1. The only real competition for this will be Advanced Sensors.

I think this power creep is designed to sell huge ships. I don't believe the tempest was 4 points overcosted no matter what some poor model says.

Interesting. Tell me more about that. If you have a better model than MJ, then I think we can all learn many things from you.

Scary to think the Alonzen pilot will have an auto target lock on anyone in Range 1, with effectively FOUR attack die where one is always a crit... that should make it better include than Accuracy Corrector?

My humble opinion:

If you can take advantage of action economy with Vader or the new guy, the Advanced Targeting Computer is going to be "THE CARD". Basic Advanceds may better use some other upgrades such as Accuracy corrector. 2 autodamage allows nice turtling without spending offensive actions.

PS: So Vader targetlocks the Decimator/Falcon, and from this point, he could start the focus + evade carousel every single turn. Moving last, of course. Vader got what he deserved; it's going to be played.

I think the Advanced Targeting will far outdamage the Accuracy Corrector. If you can roll one hit result against a target locked opponent, then you effectively have a hit/crit combo. If you get two hits, this upgrade turns them into three. If you roll none, you basically still have one crit result.

Overall, you should have very similar results to an Accuracy Corrector at Range 2-3, and significantly better results at Range 1. The only real competition for this will be Advanced Sensors.

Predator on named Ties With Advanced TL will be a thing.

Predator for Vader.

VI for Maarek (move later = more options for target locks)

PTL for the new guy.

Accuracy Correctors for the generics.

Maarek is in looooove. Crits alll dayyyyyyy. ALL THE CRITS. MAAAREK HAS BEEN FIXED HOLY HECK YES

I think this power creep is designed to sell huge ships. I don't believe the tempest was 4 points overcosted no matter what some poor model says.

Interesting. Tell me more about that. If you have a better model than MJ, then I think we can all learn many things from you.

That was sorry choice of wording on my part. My model shows 2 points will bring it in line with a rookie but 4 makes it one of the better statline ships. Look at how much everyone is salivating over this change. I guess if you have to pay an additional $100, the thing better be great.

I think this power creep is designed to sell huge ships. I don't believe the tempest was 4 points overcosted no matter what some poor model says.

Interesting. Tell me more about that. If you have a better model than MJ, then I think we can all learn many things from you.

That was sorry choice of wording on my part. My model shows 2 points will bring it in line with a rookie but 4 makes it one of the better statline ships. Look at how much everyone is salivating over this change. I guess if you have to pay an additional $100, the thing better be great.

The Advanced was never directly competing with the Rookie. It competes with the TIE Fighter, Defender and Interceptor, all of which did a better job for the points than the Advanced. It dealt far too little damage to be worth taking over a basic Academy Pilot, let alone any of the named TIE pilots. Now it doesn't.

I think this power creep is designed to sell huge ships. I don't believe the tempest was 4 points overcosted no matter what some poor model says.

Interesting. Tell me more about that. If you have a better model than MJ, then I think we can all learn many things from you.

That was sorry choice of wording on my part. My model shows 2 points will bring it in line with a rookie but 4 makes it one of the better statline ships. Look at how much everyone is salivating over this change. I guess if you have to pay an additional $100, the thing better be great.

FYI, I'm not sure what model you are using. The approach here requires, at a minimum, robust knowledge of differential equations and probability calculations (binomial distribution as a simple example). See this post for background. Since you commented that this is a poor model, I can only conclude that either

a) You would be comfortable teaching the above fundamentals to an upper level undergraduate class, and have analyzed my approach and found it lacking,

or,

b) You don't know what you don't know.

Again, read up on the 2nd post in my MathWing thread linked above and in the OP. It explains the derivation method.

Edit:

Also, spoiler alert. full results later, but I'll leave this as a teaser:

Vader + title + Advanced TC is ~118% jousting efficiency.