FFG Forum Archive

Posted at 2014-11-21 22:59:20+00:00

I got tired of all the other "fixing the TIE Advanced threads", so I started a new one...

On a more serious note, I vacuumed up a bunch of ideas, and mathematically compared them using the method outline in my MathWing: Ship Jousting Values and more thread.

~~We don't know which (if any) of these options FFG is employing on the TIE Advanced yet, but here are my predictions with rationale for each hypothetical scenario.~~

Update: FFG has announced their fix to the TIE Advanced. I will incorporate my analysis into the above thread shortly.

Side note: the contents on the first post on that thread are currently under reconstruction, but the results should be updated shortly. The short summary is that I have improved several key items:

Calculating durability according to the actual number of shots required to kill a target, and not simply dividing total hit points by average damage intake
Adjusting the general curve fit so it now correctly tracks for high cost ships.
More rigorously defining the PS1 equivalent cost for each ship.

For more details on each of these, see the above linked thread.

One underlying issue with the TIE Advanced is applying a global fix that applies equally to all of the pilots is guaranteed to still leave Vader as being more powerful than all the others. His cost is simply not in line with the rest of the ships because his ability is worth about 3 points. The pilots would be better balanced if the cost of the "fix" is PS dependent, so that the PS2, 4, 7 pilots get an extra point discount compared to Vader. For this analysis I simply apply the same global fix for all of the pilots, with the exception of my House Rules. Generally speaking, either a global and/or targeted cost reduction is required for the generic pilots to be competitive with Vader. This is simply a mathematical certainty based on the existing cost structure and cost to damage ratios, and will be demonstrated as we get to specific examples.

I personally think the best fix for the TIE Advanced would involve giving it multiple title options, where each title would represent a different "prototype technology" that was used on the Advanced as an experimental platform. Each title would provide a different capability, for example:

Title #1: increases damage cost effectiveness
Title #2: grants friendly buffs, support ship style
Title #3: grants utility abilities

FFG is much more creative than I am, so I am only going to address the first one. Here are the 8 different cases for the TIE Advanced that I will be analyzing as options for title #1:

Stock
4 point cost reduction
+1 attack @ +4 cost
Free Fire-Control System at -2 cost
Free System Upgrade slot, filled with Accuracy Corrector for 2 points
Free "Wedge" ability at -1 cost
Free "Howlrunner" ability at -1 cost
My House Rules, which are a modification of #4 with further point tweaking on the pilots.

The description for each column is as follows:

Absolute Cost : the total cost of the pilot including the "fix" card if applicable

PS1 Cost : the Pilot Skill 1 equivalent cost, which for Pilot Skill X is:

(base cost + upgrades) / (1 + ( X-1 + EPT)/24) - named ability value

I have costed Vader's named ability as worth 3 points, and Maarek Steele's ability worth 1 point.

Total Efficiency : The total PS1 value of the ship (including dial, actions, etc) divided by the PS1 equivalent cost. The TIE Advanced is nearly a duplicate of the standard TIE Fighter, so the total efficiency is almost identical to the jousting efficiency. The total efficiency is actually slightly lower since the TIE Fighter's dial is better (hard 1's). For more details see the above linked thread.

Jousting Efficiency (standard) : the efficiency of the ship based only on its expected damage output, durability, and PS1 equivalent cost, as determined by the "standard" meta.

Jousting Efficiency (range) : This represents the jousting efficiency with the worst-case meta matchups on both offense and defense, and the jousting efficiency with the best-case meta matchups on both offense and defense. Specific matchups against specific stat lines can and will still fall slightly outside these ranges, but the ship's average jousting efficiency considering a variety of opponents is virtually guaranteed to fall within this range.

Required Efficiency : This represents how much damage the ship must do before it dies, relative to the amount expected solely by its statistically expected damage output and durability, in order for it to "break even" with a PS1 ship that is 100% efficient such as the standard TIE Fighter. This basically dictates how well you need to fly the ship and utilize its non-jousting capabilities to get your investment back. These numbers are based on the absolute cost of the ship, so more expensive pilots like Vader obviously have to do more damage than a Tempest Squadron Pilot before they pay for themselves.

Scenario #1: Stock TIE Advanced

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 21 | 20.2 | 76.9% | 77.2% | 77% - 77.5% | 172.1%

PS4 TIE Advanced 23 | 20.4 | 75.8% | 76.2% | 76% - 76.4% | 203%

Maarek Steele ¹ 27 | 19.9 | 77.9% | 78.2% | 78% - 78.5% | 271%

Darth Vader ³ 29 | 18.1 | 85.7% | 86.1% | 85.9% - 86.4% | 308.3%

This is the stock TIE Advanced. Not much needs to be said here, except for pointing out that for the PS2 TIE Advanced to break even, it needs to perform a whopping 72% better than it's stats would indicate. Vader is actually the least expensive pilot on a PS1 adjusted basis, which agrees with actual playtesting.

Grade: F

The stock TIE Advanced is simply not worth playing competitively in any capacity, unless you are intentionally doing it for the challenge.

Scenario #2: 4 point cost reduction

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 17 | 16.3 | 95% | 95.4% | 95.2% - 95.7% | 117.4%

PS4 TIE Advanced 19 | 16.9 | 91.8% | 92.2% | 92% - 92.5% | 143.7%

Maarek Steele ¹ 23 | 16.8 | 92.2% | 92.7% | 92.4% - 93% | 203%

Darth Vader ³ 25 | 15.2 | 102.1% | 102.6% | 102.3% - 102.9% | 235.8%

This is the simplest fix, and also the least interesting. A 4 point reduction would make Vader very good, and would make the PS2 pilot playable, but still inferior to naked TIE Fighters. With this fix, I would expect to see Vader actually see some playtime on competitive tables, especially with Proton Rockets. The PS2s with Proton Rockets could conceivably see some competitive use as well. 5 Tempest Squadron Pilots with Proton Rockets would be a solid squad against many matchups.

Grade: B

This makes Vader and the Tempest Squadron Pilot playable, but Storm and Maarek will continue to collect dust. The raw jousting value of the ship is still insufficient to warrant taking it over a TIE Fighter. You either need to bring PS9 (Vader) and/or Proton Rockets for the ship to be worthwhile.

Scenario #3: +1 attack at +4 cost

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 25 | 24 | 86.7% | 87.1% | 85.4% - 88.7% | 138.3%

PS4 TIE Advanced 27 | 24 | 86.7% | 87.1% | 85.4% - 88.7% | 158.9%

Maarek Steele1 31 | 23 | 90.5% | 90.9% | 89.1% - 92.5% | 203.6%

Darth Vader ³ 33 | 21 | 99.1% | 99.5% | 97.6% - 101.3% | 227.7%

Darth Vader ⁰ 33 | 24 | 106.5% | 107% | 103.9% - 109.8% | 157%

This is also a straightforward fix, and would guarantee that you would only ever want to fly Vader instead of any other TIE Advanced. I calculated Vader 2 ways: once with the conventional 3 point value for his pilot ability, and then again by simply giving him a free Target Lock every round, to simulate his second action. Since he now has 3 attack dice, taking TL+F for his action will almost always be the most efficient use, and this results in an extremely deadly ship for its cost.

Grade: D-

All this does is make Vader extremely good, while still leaving the rest of the Advanced pilots completely useless. It's also highly anti-thematic and doesn't make sense from a fluff perspective. It is trying to make the TIE Advanced into the TIE Avenger, which it clearly is not.

Scenario #4: Fire-control System at -2 cost

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 19 | 18.2 | 94.7% | 95.2% | 94.5% - 95.9% | 117.9%

PS4 TIE Advanced 21 | 18.7 | 92.6% | 93% | 92.3% - 93.7% | 141.4%

Maarek Steele ¹ 25 | 18.4 | 94.1% | 94.6% | 93.9% - 95.3% | 193.7%

Darth Vader ³ 27 | 16.6 | 103.9% | 104.3% | 103.6% - 105.1% | 222.6%

The expected damage output with a Fire-Control System is computed as if the ship has a 50% chance of using a Target Lock, in addition to the 67% chance of having focus. This results in an simulated attacker action economy of:

no action: 16%
Focus or Target Lock: 50%
Focus and Target Lock: 33%

This is the most interesting from a gameplay perspective, because it opens up a host of options for Missiles, and getting the FCS queue working on high hit point ships. The PS2s make for decent filler in any list, and the FCS is a great counter to the Fat Han builds. The costs aren't quite right for the PS4 and Maarek, and Vader may actually be too powerful here, but it's the best possible global fix.

Grade: A-

This opens up the most options for the meta game, and only needs some minor point tweaks to make the TIE Advanced have a legitimate place in the meta.

Scenario #5: -1 cost System Upgrade + Accuracy Corrector for net total of +2 points

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

(damage directly calculated; durability now assumes 2/3 chance of focus vs 1/2)

PS2 TIE Advanced 23 | 22.1 | 91.4% | 91.8% | 90.8% - 92.8% | 125.9%

PS4 TIE Advanced 25 | 22.2 | 90.8% | 91.2% | 90.3% - 92.2% | 146.3%

Maarek Steele ⁰ 29 | 22.5 | 89.8% | 90.2% | 89.3% - 91.2% | 191.2%

Darth Vader ³ 31 | 19.5 | 103.2% | 103.7% | 102.6% - 104.8% | 215.3%

As explained in Mathwing: Accuracy Corrector , any 2 attack ship with a System Upgrade slot and any sort of durability will make Accuracy Corrector auto-include. One of the first suggestions on that thread was its use as a potential fix for the TIE Advanced. To account for the better defensive action economy, the durability numbers for the TIE Advanced now assume that the ship has a 67% chance of having focus on defense, up from 50% standard. Also note that Maarek Steele's ability is now costed at 0 points, because his ability will almost never trigger.

This fix makes Vader very good, and the rest of the pilots are OK, with Maarek obviously being the least cost effective. For reference, a B-wing has a jousting efficiency of ~92.7%, and an X-wing is ~88.3%, so the PS2 TIE Advanced with this fix will be on the threshold of being useful. Unfortunately they have almost zero utility aside from being able to carry a 5-dice Proton Rockets, so unlike the B-wing that sees play because of FCS and Advanced Sensors, the generic TIE Advanced will still probably spend most of their time collecting dust. Vader is good, but still becomes very expensive for a 2-attack ship as soon as you start loading him up with options. Vader + AC + Rockets for 34 points would be an expensive but effective way to deal out massive damage to a select target at PS9, and still have a very durable ship. You might even see VI Vader + ACD Echo w/ Decoy, for a PS11 firing Phantom.

Grade: C+

This is one of the stranger fixes. It doesn't help the generic pilots enough to make them very competitive, but Vader would finally see use, if only because he can turtle up forever at PS9 with double defensive actions until he can unload his 5 dice TL+F attack at range 1.

Scenario #5(b): -1 cost System Upgrade + Advanced Sensors for net total of +2 points

I originally didn't even bother to list this, because there is absolutely no way that it is cost effective. However, this potential "fix" keeps coming up, so I will run the numbers to quantify exactly why it would not help the TIE Advanced.

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 23 | 22.1 | 70.2% | 70.5% | 70.3% - 70.8% | 203%

PS4 TIE Advanced 25 | 22.2 | 69.8% | 70.1% | 69.9% - 70.3% | 235.8%

Maarek Steele1 29 | 21.5 | 72.3% | 72.6% | 72.4% - 72.8% | 308.3%

Darth Vader3 31 | 19.5 | 79.3% | 79.7% | 79.5% - 79.9% | 347.6%

The numbers highlighted in red indicate the required efficiency that you would need to get out of the different pilots to make back their money. The Tempest Squadron Pilot at 23 points with Advanced Sensors needs to do twice the damage that its statline predicts to break even. Here is another way to think about it: the jousting efficiency is only marginally higher than a named YT-1300. For about the same cost effectiveness, which would you rather have: the TIE Advanced's dial, action bar, and Advanced Sensors, or a 360 degree firing arc?

Grade: F-

This fix would make the TIE Advanced even worse than the stock version.

Scenario #6: "Wedge" ability at -1 cost

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 20 | 19.2 | 92.9% | 93.3% | 91.3% - 95% | 122.2%

PS4 TIE Advanced 22 | 19.6 | 91.2% | 91.6% | 89.6% - 93.2% | 145.2%

Maarek Steele ¹ 26 | 19.1 | 93.2% | 93.6% | 91.6% - 95.3% | 196.4%

Darth Vader ³ 28 | 17.4 | 102.7% | 103.2% | 100.9% - 105% | 224.3%

This fix is straightforward: give all the pilots the ability to reduce their target's agility by 1 to a minimum of 0. Again, this fix mostly benefits Vader, although the spread between the PS2 and Vader is not as bad as some of the other fixes.

Grade: C

Mathematically this option isn't terrible, but I don't like the idea of taking a named pilot ability and making it standard across an entire ship lineup. This ability is also useless against AGI0 targets, which we now have with the VT-49.

Scenario #7: "Howlrunner" ability at -1 cost

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 20 | 19.2 | 94.8% | 95.2% | 94.3% - 96.1% | 117.7%

PS4 TIE Advanced 22 | 19.6 | 93.1% | 93.5% | 92.6% - 94.3% | 140%

Maarek Steele ¹ 26 | 19.1 | 95.2% | 95.6% | 94.7% - 96.4% | 189.1%

Darth Vader ³ 28 | 17.4 | 104.8% | 105.3% | 104.3% - 106.2% | 216.2%

This fix is also straightforward: give all the pilots the ability to reroll 1 dice on their offensive attack. Predictably, this mathematically favors Vader the most, but it is also completely redundant if he takes TL+F as his actions.

Grade: C

Like scenario #6, this option isn't terrible, but I don't like the idea of taking a named pilot ability and making it standard across an entire ship lineup.

Scenario #8: MajorJuggler House Rules (FCS and cost change)

Cost | | Jousting Efficiency |

PS2 TIE Advanced 19 | 18.2 | 94.7% | 95.2% | 94.5% - 95.9% | 117.9%

PS4 TIE Advanced 20.5 | 18.2 | 94.8% | 95.3% | 94.6% - 96% | 135.3%

Maarek Steele ¹ 24.5 | 18 | 96.2% | 96.6% | 95.9% - 97.3% | 186.8%

Darth Vader ³ 28 | 17.4 | 99.5% | 100% | 99.2% - 100.7% | 237.5%

House rules with 100% Target Lock assumption

PS2 TIE Advanced 19 | 18.2 | 103.7% | 104.2% | 103.1% - 105.2% | 99.9%

PS4 TIE Advanced 20.5 | 18.2 | 103.8% | 104.3% | 103.2% - 105.3% | 114.7%

Maarek Steele ¹ 24.5 | 18 | 105.3% | 105.8% | 104.7% - 106.8% | 158.4%

Darth Vader ³ 28 | 17.4 | 109% | 109.5% | 108.3% - 110.6% | 201.6%

These rules give a free Fire-Control System to all TIE Advanced, and also have a cost change for each pilot:

Tempest Squadron Pilot: Cost reduced from 21 to 19
Storm Squadron Pilot: Cost reduced from 23 to 20.5
Maarek Steele: Cost reduced from 27 to 24.5
Darth Vader: Cost reduced from 29 to 28

The calculations are otherwise identical to Scenario #4. Using half-point adjustments will probably never happen in the real game, but for House Rules they are quite useful for an initiative bid or simply getting double of the same pilot for one point less. This approach has all the strengths of scenario #4, and with the appropriate costs so that all of the pilots would be usable without being overpowered.

Grade: A

( I am obviously going to give this version the highest grade, because if I thought that an alternative was better, I would be using that alternative instead. )

The half-point adjustment on Maarek Steele and the Storm Squadron Pilot are not ideal, but this is easily the most well-rounded and well-balanced option that I have seen so far. This opens up the meta options for the TIE Advanced more than any other option listed.

They have a healthy efficiency without risking being overpowered.
They are very effective against Fat Falcons once FCS gets Target Locks in the queue for every shot, which which would increase the efficiency above the quoted numbers which only assume a free TL 50% of the time
The FCS makes Cluster Missiles viable, especially against AGI0 and AGI1 targets.

Edited December 19, 2014 by MajorJuggler

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:14:45+00:00

dat bias doe

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:17:31+00:00

My hunch would be that the TIE Advanced "fix" is some kind of combination of a 'free' system upgrade slot with something else - which you build numbers for with a few of your options.

However, I can't imagine the conclusion of your thesis is a realistic option. While it's true FFG has (with the new 'Chardaan Refit') finally given us an upgrade that flat-out reduces cost, that one:

- Had a pretty big opportunity cost to use, in that you are losing your missile slots to get it

- It added nothing to the ship...no new capabilities or flexibility...to reduce the cost

I just can't see FFG releasing an "oops, we really blew the costing on that fighter, so here's a free upgrade slot that also reduces your fighter's cost" sort of change.

Which brings us back to...what could they do that would be an appropriate benefit to the TIE Advanced? IMHO, a system upgrade that sits in the missile slot for no cost (shades of the Chardaan Refit) is a good start, but the ship should also come with a new system upgrade that would be particularly useful for the TIE Advanced. (That the TIE Defender did not get the LucasArts' "tractor beam" ability would make such a thing an obvious choice for the TIE Advanced...but how to make it something that is specifically valuable for the TIE Advanced, but not obviously overpowered for everyone else? Certainly the 'accuracy corrector' shows how such a thing might be done...something powerful enough to be an obviously auto-include for a 2-attack-ship, but not so obvious for more powerful platforms. Soooo...something along those lines?)

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:22:35+00:00

A question I would raise is whether there is ANY uniform change that would actually create possible effective B or C rank use out of all the ships.

We have a design error in Maarek Stele's cost.

Second, Darth Vader probably should ascend to the A rank level of use. He's a very important character and thematically makes sense. What should be avoided is probably the A+ rank, which means that he is an auto include if you can afford him. (basically, that in almost all circumstances, he beats out the effective point choice of any other combination, such as 3 ties).

[Let's call the A++ rank, Overpowered, or that every imperial list regardless of what it is should have this ship].

FFG has also the old basic assumptive formula for PS on these old ships. Which based on your math is only about .5 points off. This is a drawback that I believe can assume B or C level inefficiency. We are only talking about .5 of a point, and sometimes you may want the PS4 to reliably get off missiles or something.

The other problem about individual fixes is that it assumes meta stability and perfection costing. One thing about innovative building is to take some suboptimal choices and use them sometimes to great synergistic or surprise effect.

(Here's an article about use of a unit that people don't use in Starcraft as a tool to live longer in a certain stage of the game. Note the use of early game set up also. This is one way that you can use something nobody else has to create something new. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/471549-game-analysis-snute-vs-flash .) Note that the Playing to Win book highlighted by KineticOperator also talks about players in Japan figuring out lesser used characters for very certain strategic and circumstancial benefit.

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:22:39+00:00

My hunch would be that the TIE Advanced "fix" is some kind of combination of a 'free' system upgrade slot with something else - which you build numbers for with a few of your options.

However, I can't imagine the conclusion of your thesis is a realistic option. While it's true FFG has (with the new 'Chardaan Refit') finally given us an upgrade that flat-out reduces cost, that one:

- Had a pretty big opportunity cost to use, in that you are losing your missile slots to get it

- It added nothing to the ship...no new capabilities or flexibility...to reduce the cost

I just can't see FFG releasing an "oops, we really blew the costing on that fighter, so here's a free upgrade slot that also reduces your fighter's cost" sort of change.

Chardaan Refit got released at the same time as A-Wing Test pilot which is essentially the same thing as a reduction in cost plus an extra upgrade slot.

Edited November 21, 2014 by WWHSD

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:25:26+00:00

I don't agree that an extra attack die is antithematic but I agree it might be overkill on Vader. Maarek seriously needs it though.

I'm not sure what FFG have up their sleeve but my guess is we won't see it coming.

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:25:40+00:00

I agree with your assessment though, and respect that your fix is probably the best choice, albeit hard to remember and rather minutely detailed.

It creates some mutlifaceted choice for what role you want the Tie Advanced to do.

I would prefer more customization (which is why I used to like the systems slot), but at this point FFG has kind of broken that possibility.

Another option that I think you've seen is to also use the Tie Fighter dial for the Tie Advanced. Or adding the 1 banks to the Tie Fighter dial, which makes thematic sense too.

Could you do some speculation on that in conjuction with a point reduction or free FCS or something?

I think that fix makes it more fun to play too.

--

Other people have suggested multiple titles for the variants of the Tie Advanced, which also makes for great fun, as you could then create some customization and also maybe one that might fit Maarek very well, thus finding use for all the pilots.

Note also that people still love using Maarek in Epic. So that should also probably be a place where he gets some sunshine.

A great thing about the fun of playing a game is allowing players to play it the way they want or in the format they want (epic, deathmatch, scenario). We base our balancing on the most competitive (1v1) but should consider how we allow the game to be played at other options. (less points, escalation, etc). Sometimes formats themselves have to change. Honestly, Escalation doesn't seem too balanced anymore.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Blail Blerg

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:37:52+00:00

While I have nothing but respect for your mad ninja math skills MajorJuggler, I also feel you rely too much on raw numbers. Gamble a little

Secondly I've never been able to wrap my head around the 'efficency' concept. What does all those numbers actually mean and how do you go about calculating it?

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:39:35+00:00

Jousting efficieny makes the assumption that ships always have shots at each other (basically takes out the maneuvering part which defies quantitative analysis) then runs through every possible situation and matchup.

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:44:09+00:00

Secondly I've never been able to wrap my head around the 'efficency' concept. What does all those numbers actually mean and how do you go about calculating it?

Lots of math that requires a good understanding of differential equations and probability to implement solutions for.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/100360-using-lanchesters-square-law-to-predict-ships-jousting-values-and-fair-point-values-work-in-progress/

Every ship has an absolute jousting "value" based on its expected damage output and durability. Normalize everything to a PS1 TIE Fighter, look at it's cost, and you can see how cost efficient it is at throwing dice.

The non-jousting factors are less of a hard science, but in the case of the TIE Advanced it doesn't really matter since it's almost identical to a TIE Fighter.

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:45:22+00:00

That's a lot of nice math, but it leaves out the most important question: what is the role of the TIE advanced supposed to be? Until you figure out why the ship should exist at all you're never going to get an appropriate solution for it.

Is it supposed to be an imperial equivalent to the x-wing, a "jousting efficiency" ship that lines up and exchanges good attack and defense numbers every turn? In this case a point reduction is the most appropriate solution since it preserves the "bland, but effective enough" theme.

Is it supposed to be a "fancy tricks" ship with its own unique upgrades and combinations? In this case the "add a system slot" answers are probably better, but then the question is how well this represents the fluff of a ship that was just a TIE fighter with shields and a hyperdrive. Remember that fluff-wise the TIE advanced was abandoned in favor of better ships and was never the equivalent of the defender/phantom/etc in the "fancy tricks" area.

Is it supposed to be Vader, with the other pilots just being the bare minimum to fill the package? This would be a pretty fluff-accurate way to handle it, after all. In this case the best answer is to fix Vader, put Maarek Stele in a better ship since people like his fluff, and pretend that the other TIE advanced pilots don't exist.

Is it supposed to be something else? I don't know then, why not explain your intended role and see what changes would help it fill that role?

Posted at 2014-11-21 23:50:52+00:00

That's a lot of nice math, but it leaves out the most important question: what is the role of the TIE advanced supposed to be? Until you figure out why the ship should exist at all you're never going to get an appropriate solution for it.

Reread scenario 4 and 8.

Posted at 2014-11-22 00:00:57+00:00

Missile boat is not exactly a role.

Nor do i feel its THAT customizable or that interesting honestly.

Second, a key ingredient is missing, we still don't have a reliable missile for killing high HP hard to kill targets.

even with the point reduction and the FCS fix, i dont see them as reliably getting enough shots on a boosting falcon to really be a soft counter role to that.

its also one dimensional, think about it from a list building perspective.

oh, i expect falcons, i guess ill shove one or two filler tie advanced in the list.

Posted at 2014-11-22 00:03:58+00:00

This is probably the beat thread on this board for tie advanced fixes. I hope that FFG has a better solution than anything you've explored. I don't have a preference but as a proud owner of six tie advanced I would love to see an Awing style refit for them or a title or two to mix it up. Maybe one for the generics and marek and one for Vader.

Posted at 2014-11-22 00:22:31+00:00

How would something that increased the likelihood of critical hit's being dealt (or critical hits avoiding shields) stack up? I'd imagine that anything that causes more crits would help all of the TIE Advanced pilots but would help Maarek the most.

Maybe something like:

"When attacking, the first damage card dealt is dealt as a critical"

Posted at 2014-11-22 00:23:55+00:00

How would something that increased the likelihood of critical hit's being dealt (or critical hits avoiding shields) stack up? I'd imagine that anything that causes more crits would help all of the TIE Advanced pilots but would help Maarek the most.

Maybe something like:

"When attacking, the first damage card dealt is dealt as a critical"

Dammit. That's pretty much what Greedo does. I thought it looked familiar while I was typing it out.

Posted at 2014-11-22 01:14:33+00:00

I'm not sure how many points you're spending in scenario 5. Is is the cost of Accuracy Corrector + 2, so a Tempest would be 27 points, or Accuracy Corrector - 1, so a Tempest is 23 points?

Edited November 22, 2014 by kraedin

Posted at 2014-11-22 02:19:27+00:00

I agree on just giving it a similar a-wing treatment. First a reduced cost by not using the missile slot. At least -2 like the a-wing, but -3 might be warranted. Then some free upgrade. It could be the free ept like the a-wing, or something else like a free systems slot like many suggested. If there's a worry about making vader too powerful, maybe make the free upgrade only applicable to ps7 or lower ships (as opposed to the a-wing one which is ps3 or higher).

Posted at 2014-11-22 02:28:31+00:00

I agree on just giving it a similar a-wing treatment. First a reduced cost by not using the missile slot. At least -2 like the a-wing, but -3 might be warranted. Then some free upgrade. It could be the free ept like the a-wing, or something else like a free systems slot like many suggested. If there's a worry about making vader too powerful, maybe make the free upgrade only applicable to ps7 or lower ships (as opposed to the a-wing one which is ps3 or higher).

EDIT: No reason to restrict it by Pilot Skill. Just make the title TIE Advanced only. Vader would need a title that works on the TIE Advanced x1.

Edited November 22, 2014 by WWHSD

Posted at 2014-11-22 02:31:07+00:00

the maneuvering part ... defies quantitative analysis

Does it, though?

It is the purest part of the game for tactics and strategy. Ignoring them makes a naked Shuttle look like the completely superior option to the Advanced, but in an actual game, the Advanced would win by outmaneuvering the bison, and continually blasting up the tailpipe.

I do feel that MajorJuggler's calculations need to incorporate a variable to allow for arc-dodging and maneuverability, if for no other reason than the Phantom.

Frankly, if you have a Phantom in your firing arc, the phantom pilot's misplayed, irrespective of whether they have their Cloak up.

Posted at 2014-11-22 02:32:05+00:00

I'm not sure how many points you're spending in scenario 5. Is is the cost of Accuracy Corrector + 2, so a Tempest would be 27 points, or Accuracy Corrector - 1, so a Tempest is 23 points?

Sorry for the Ambiguity. the System Upgrade slot is free, and Accuracy Corrector would then be auto-include and cost 2 more points. The absolute values listed are correct: 23 for the PS2, I just didn't explain it well enough. Those responsible have been sacked; the heading has been updated.

Posted at 2014-11-22 02:59:05+00:00

Scenario #2: The issue is, you are putting the Advanced in direct competition with the Bomber. The Bomber's dial is slightly worse than the Advanced's. It could be said that the 1 straight balances out the red 2 turns in comparison. Until crits are something more reliable or Rexlar starts seeing big play, I just don't see the shields being that big of an advantage. And 1 Agility vs 1 Hull depends on how much you want to gamble on the dice. That one point will still leave people to go with Bombers, especially with the specialized options they have. It's why I think FFG will do something a bit more than a price reduction.

Scenario #3: Really, really boring and doesn't add a whole lot to the game.

Scenario #4: A bit more creative, but I don't think it opens up things enough for the ship.

Scenario #5: See, the system slot opens things up more than just Accuracy Corrector. Sure, Accuracy Corrector is an auto-include over FCS. But there is still some good debate over Advanced Sensors. Though, interestingly, Advanced Sensors isn't that great with Vader. Accuracy Corrector pretty much turns Vader in a tank. Then, there is the fact that we don't know the future of the Systems upgrade slot.

Scenario #6: Free Outmaneuver is fun. Something that is perfectly thematic on Vader.

Scenario #7: Not bad. Though, I'm beginning to think something more creative is in order.

Posted at 2014-11-22 03:36:10+00:00

I agree on just giving it a similar a-wing treatment. First a reduced cost by not using the missile slot. At least -2 like the a-wing, but -3 might be warranted. Then some free upgrade. It could be the free ept like the a-wing, or something else like a free systems slot like many suggested. If there's a worry about making vader too powerful, maybe make the free upgrade only applicable to ps7 or lower ships (as opposed to the a-wing one which is ps3 or higher).

I think the problem with an upgrade that takes the missile slot like Chardaan Refit is that now both of the ships that Proton Rocket works best with effectively have to pay a higher cost to use it.
EDIT: No reason to restrict it by Pilot Skill. Just make the title TIE Advanced only. Vader would need a title that works on the TIE Advanced x1.

All Tie Advanced need a fix, not just the non-Vader versions. He's playable where the other Advances are not but he isn't competitive.

Posted at 2014-11-22 04:32:34+00:00

I agree on just giving it a similar a-wing treatment. First a reduced cost by not using the missile slot. At least -2 like the a-wing, but -3 might be warranted. Then some free upgrade. It could be the free ept like the a-wing, or something else like a free systems slot like many suggested. If there's a worry about making vader too powerful, maybe make the free upgrade only applicable to ps7 or lower ships (as opposed to the a-wing one which is ps3 or higher).

I think the problem with an upgrade that takes the missile slot like Chardaan Refit is that now both of the ships that Proton Rocket works best with effectively have to pay a higher cost to use it.
EDIT: No reason to restrict it by Pilot Skill. Just make the title TIE Advanced only. Vader would need a title that works on the TIE Advanced x1.

All Tie Advanced need a fix, not just the non-Vader versions. He's playable where the other Advances are not but he isn't competitive.

Both need a fix, but one of the points I took away from the OP is that a fix that makes Maarek and the genrics worth playing might make Vader too strong and fixes that put Vader where he needs to be don't do enough for the others.

If there is a two part fix like there was for A-Wings (Chardaan + Test Pilot) then using a title can let the fix be applied in a more granular manner. Even if FFG doesn't use a two part fix, since Vader flys a different ship than the other pilots there could be a title for the Advanced and one for the x1.

Posted at 2014-11-22 04:38:05+00:00

I'm not sure how many points you're spending in scenario 5. Is is the cost of Accuracy Corrector + 2, so a Tempest would be 27 points, or Accuracy Corrector - 1, so a Tempest is 23 points?

Sorry for the Ambiguity. the System Upgrade slot is free, and Accuracy Corrector would then be auto-include and cost 2 more points. The absolute values listed are correct: 23 for the PS2, I just didn't explain it well enough. Those responsible have been sacked; the heading has been updated.

Edited November 22, 2014 by kraedin

MathWing: Fixing the TIE Advanced