Characters are balanced across experience. So a 25XP character from EotE is probably balanced with a 25XP character from F&D. But a Jedi is not a 25XP character. No more than Boba Fett is a 25XP Bounty Hunter. Jango Fett went toe-to-toe with Obi Wan and Jango wasn't a Jedi. Don't make the mistake of thinking a starting character in either system is what you see on screen with Obi Wan, or Anakin, et al.

The other important point? If you start at the top of the food chain, there's nowhere for your character to go. Every role playing game in the history of the medium will break after a certain point. All characters have a shelf life - why would you want to power level to lvl60 just to sit around?

Okay, it's not for me to judge anyone else at their table - but that would be boring for me. The point is the journey, not the destination.

Characters are balanced across experience. So a 25XP character from EotE is probably balanced with a 25XP character from F&D. But a Jedi is not a 25XP character. No more than Boba Fett is a 25XP Bounty Hunter. Jango Fett went toe-to-toe with Obi Wan and Jango wasn't a Jedi. Don't make the mistake of thinking a starting character in either system is what you see on screen with Obi Wan, or Anakin, et al.

The other important point? If you start at the top of the food chain, there's nowhere for your character to go. Every role playing game in the history of the medium will break after a certain point. All characters have a shelf life - why would you want to power level to lvl60 just to sit around?

Okay, it's not for me to judge anyone else at their table - but that would be boring for me. The point is the journey, not the destination.

But then there's the viewpoint of once you reach the destination, a whole new journey begins.

Once again, I believe that once you reach your uber character goals, a new journey begins. It's no longer about how powerful your character is, but now about WHAT to do with that power. How do you accomplish your goals now since you have the fire power or the Force to back it up? Heck, what ARE your goals? Who do you take along with you? Who resents you or who's feet do you step on to obtain it?

That's the point I've been trying to make this entire post. I was kind of hoping that Force and Destiny would take us to those new levels. Again, I am NOT hating on it, it seems fantastic and I can't WAIT to get my hands on a real copy. I was just surprised it is playing around balance instead of taking us on the next step of an epic journey.

What is this thread doing here?

Call it a crossover and smile

Characters are balanced across experience. So a 25XP character from EotE is probably balanced with a 25XP character from F&D. But a Jedi is not a 25XP character. No more than Boba Fett is a 25XP Bounty Hunter. Jango Fett went toe-to-toe with Obi Wan and Jango wasn't a Jedi. Don't make the mistake of thinking a starting character in either system is what you see on screen with Obi Wan, or Anakin, et al.

The other important point? If you start at the top of the food chain, there's nowhere for your character to go. Every role playing game in the history of the medium will break after a certain point. All characters have a shelf life - why would you want to power level to lvl60 just to sit around?

Okay, it's not for me to judge anyone else at their table - but that would be boring for me. The point is the journey, not the destination.

But then there's the viewpoint of once you reach the destination, a whole new journey begins.

Once again, I believe that once you reach your uber character goals, a new journey begins. It's no longer about how powerful your character is, but now about WHAT to do with that power. How do you accomplish your goals now since you have the fire power or the Force to back it up? Heck, what ARE your goals? Who do you take along with you? Who resents you or who's feet do you step on to obtain it?

That's the point I've been trying to make this entire post. I was kind of hoping that Force and Destiny would take us to those new levels. Again, I am NOT hating on it, it seems fantastic and I can't WAIT to get my hands on a real copy. I was just surprised it is playing around balance instead of taking us on the next step of an epic journey.

If one looks at the mess that happened with Dark heresy and Rogue Trader in which they tried doing that and it caused huge problems. So not they decided against doing that. It is much better to keep all the players on an equal footing. Or pretty close to it.

But then there's the viewpoint of once you reach the destination, a whole new journey begins.

Once again, I believe that once you reach your uber character goals, a new journey begins. It's no longer about how powerful your character is, but now about WHAT to do with that power. How do you accomplish your goals now since you have the fire power or the Force to back it up? Heck, what ARE your goals? Who do you take along with you? Who resents you or who's feet do you step on to obtain it?

That's the point I've been trying to make this entire post. I was kind of hoping that Force and Destiny would take us to those new levels. Again, I am NOT hating on it, it seems fantastic and I can't WAIT to get my hands on a real copy. I was just surprised it is playing around balance instead of taking us on the next step of an epic journey.

The problem is - throw enough experience at the character and the game engine simply breaks down. I don't know what the tipping point for EotE is, but I've yet to see a game that doesn't have some kind of "The characters are so powerful that they succeed at everything, so why bother rolling dice" event horizon. Champions, GURPS, D6 Star Wars, D20 Star Wars all become pointless after X+1 amount of experience.

They all go that way, although I'm less than experienced at FFGs Star Wars so I'm not sure where the breaking point is.

But then there's the viewpoint of once you reach the destination, a whole new journey begins.

Once again, I believe that once you reach your uber character goals, a new journey begins. It's no longer about how powerful your character is, but now about WHAT to do with that power. How do you accomplish your goals now since you have the fire power or the Force to back it up? Heck, what ARE your goals? Who do you take along with you? Who resents you or who's feet do you step on to obtain it?

That's the point I've been trying to make this entire post. I was kind of hoping that Force and Destiny would take us to those new levels. Again, I am NOT hating on it, it seems fantastic and I can't WAIT to get my hands on a real copy. I was just surprised it is playing around balance instead of taking us on the next step of an epic journey.

The problem is - throw enough experience at the character and the game engine simply breaks down. I don't know what the tipping point for EotE is, but I've yet to see a game that doesn't have some kind of "The characters are so powerful that they succeed at everything, so why bother rolling dice" event horizon. Champions, GURPS, D6 Star Wars, D20 Star Wars all become pointless after X+1 amount of experience.

I have yet to find that breaking point. If you find it, let me know!

Fair enough - I've not played enough under the FFG engine to find that breaking point. I assume it's out there, since I have yet to find an engine that withstand a bazillion point character. Perhaps this is the one - I honestly don't know.

the breaking point for the die mechanic according to Sam Stewart is around 6 dice. which is why the cap is there.

To get to full Vader, what another 2-300 XP? (Vader sounds like a big bad, but he never really does much but walk around scaring people).

If it is considered that Vader has the same skills and talents as Anakin (I have seen people argue that he doesn't, but I think the typical belief is that he would) and you add some modest expectations of what he has gained as Vader, then he's significantly above 300XP.

I started an "Iconic Write-Ups" thread here:

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121790-iconic-write-ups/

in which I did Ahsoka Tano. When I'd really taken account of everything she did and could do in TCW, she had already come to about 300XP. Very impressive stuff. The version in that thread is an adult version - supposing she was still alive in the time that EotE is set, as that is where my players will encounter her.

I was going to do Vader but after how long it took me to do Ahsoka, I put that on hold, given that based on Ahsoka, Vader would be able to solo the party.

The other important point? If you start at the top of the food chain, there's nowhere for your character to go.

(Picture of King Louis the Orangutan from The Jungle Book)

"Well I've reached the top, and had to stop, and that's what's bothering me?

I was just surprised it is playing around balance instead of taking us on the next step of an epic journey.

When you put it that way it feels like you're not taking notice. It does let you take the "next" step on an epic journey, but it can also be used for the first step. You can start your character at any point you want if you're the GM or get GM approval. *You* get to decide where the next step of the epic journey begins, and if you want to start your Jedi at +200, +500, or +1000 XP you can do so.

There's no "instead", you get both.

The game, in it's default form, is a stock freighter.

If that freighter isn't doing what you need, then you get to play Han Solo and make a lot of special modifications, yourself.

And that isn't even using house rules to do so. The game explicitly encourages it.

Rather than set hard parameters defining a Jedi... Which would be sure to annoy more people than it would satisfy... FFG has (wisely, in my opinion) drawn back from that (somewhat) and given us a well-equipped garage to make our modifications in.

Now, this all assumes that the whole party is similarly boosted.

I genuinely don't see how that is not meeting reasonable and fair expectations.

If, however, the expectation is "You guys play characters from Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion. I will make use of Force and Destiny. I am sure that the GM will find something for you normies to do." then there is a problem.

I never said Vader had "only 300 XP" I said added to the 300 Anakin had, he had 2-300 xp more. I find this reasonable as from a force power standpoint he is incredibly weak. He catches a blaster bolt or 2, and uses force choke 1 time and force move a bunch, aside from that he stands around looking scary. Sometimes he walks around looking scary and sometimes he flies in his ship, hitting 1 thing before crashing.

Still sounds like 6-700 XP for a full Vader is pretty well spot on.

Speak softly. This thread might awaken yuckiness.

But then there's the viewpoint of once you reach the destination, a whole new journey begins.

Once again, I believe that once you reach your uber character goals, a new journey begins. It's no longer about how powerful your character is, but now about WHAT to do with that power. How do you accomplish your goals now since you have the fire power or the Force to back it up? Heck, what ARE your goals? Who do you take along with you? Who resents you or who's feet do you step on to obtain it?

That's the point I've been trying to make this entire post. I was kind of hoping that Force and Destiny would take us to those new levels. Again, I am NOT hating on it, it seems fantastic and I can't WAIT to get my hands on a real copy. I was just surprised it is playing around balance instead of taking us on the next step of an epic journey.

Honestly, I think the combined systems do offer the "next journey" experience quite well. If capability is the primary distinguishing factor, giving your force users extra starting Experience, Force Rating, or Powers can accomplish this quickly and cleanly. It can also be done narratively using systems such as Obligation/Duty/Morality/Motivation to change the theme, mood, tone, focus, etc. of your journey.

For example, I'm playing a green young colonist (and nascent force user), recently set out into the wider galaxy, this is his Edge of the Empire story, every threat has been a BIG threat (even a pair of Thugs) and he is in way over his head. He is regularly struggling to make ends meet, despairs ever finding his missing mother, and worries about having left his father alone and with a blaster wound in his side.

Eventually I see him finding a cause bigger than himself to fight and struggle for. The stakes are bigger than ever and the scope of conflict will have far outgrown the small group of thugs that started him on this journey. His Age of Rebellion story will be about stepping up and fighting the good fight.

If he over comes these struggles, surviving great odds, he will find his choices and actions have greater consequences, both within himself and without, than he suspected. Now that he has the power to help himself, his family, friends, and causes in ways he has scarcely imagined. His struggles will often be more personal than ever before as he is confronted with new choices, consequences, and threats, new and old, who wish to take that power away from him. This is likely the shape his Force and Destiny journey will take.

This is only a guideline to help form the stories, hopefully, to come, but I do think it does a great job of showing one way how the 'next tier' or journey can be implemented.

I'm so hopeful that we can pull something like this off . . .

We have a long way to go . . .

Sorry, go about your business

Fair enough - I've not played enough under the FFG engine to find that breaking point. I assume it's out there, since I have yet to find an engine that withstand a bazillion point character. Perhaps this is the one - I honestly don't know.

I guess it would depends on one's definition of "broken." But in a system with no levels, CLs, and CRs, what is there to break?

Typing out full words instead of letters is one that that is broken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

I guess it would depends on one's definition of "broken." But in a system with no levels, CLs, and CRs, what is there to break?

Like I said, FFG's end game is outside my experiance - but I can speak to WEG's end game, having been there many a time - another game without levels and CLs and CRs. When you get a character that is throwing around 10 dice in each of the three force skills and another 8 or 9 in the lightsaber, then the bad guys might as well not show up. "I spend a force point, everyone dies" goes the Jedi.

Now consider the plight of poor old Ebak in the How do I challenge a dice pool of YYYYGG thread. Admittedly, his problem was a starting level issue and a powergamer working against the flow - but what happens if after 700-ish points (to pick a number out of the air) and most of your characters are sporting that many yellows? Combat, social interaction, starship fights - it all loses it's luster when you get nothing but successes time and time and time and time again.

Does the FFG engine have that tipping point? Probably. What is it? No idea whatsoever. But I would prefer to extend the shelf life of my character as long as I can.

Typing out full words instead of letters is one that that is broken.

But I feel like I'm missing some context as to the apparent joke. Please elucidate?

Like I said, FFG's end game is outside my experiance - but I can speak to WEG's end game, having been there many a time - another game without levels and CLs and CRs. When you get a character that is throwing around 10 dice in each of the three force skills and another 8 or 9 in the lightsaber, then the bad guys might as well not show up. "I spend a force point, everyone dies" goes the Jedi.

The problem there is the way the dice probabilities work. Given a particular difficulty level/target number, every skill progression in WEG goes like this:

<--------- really hard -------><- * -><--------- totally awesome ------->

* = hit and miss

And once you're in "totally awesome" range, you can start doing extra actions, which makes you ridiculously effective.

I don't see the narrative dice having the same problem. The scale is more linear with difficulty level. Sure, you can start wasting minions more quickly, but that's easy to scale, and Nemeses with Adversary means even shooting at them from far away runs a risk of Despair.

Now consider the plight of poor old Ebak in the How do I challenge a dice pool of YYYYGG thread. Admittedly, his problem was a starting level issue and a powergamer working against the flow - but what happens if after 700-ish points (to pick a number out of the air) and most of your characters are sporting that many yellows?

You can scale any opposed challenge. Once someone is that good, they should either be challenged outside their comfort zone, or challenged within their comfort zone with opposed checks. In the case of a slicer, they should be going up against active security, i.e.: some other hacker actively taking counter-measures.

Also, given what I've seen so far at 300+, if people make balanced characters they aren't going to be sporting 6 dice at 700 either. Dedication can be used to boost a low stat as well as a high one, if somebody builds a three-3s or four-3s character, or even a 432222, they're still only going to have 3-4 Dedication by then, enough to make a 543322 or something. And Jedi will have less, because they'll be spending XP on the Force.

Basically I don't think it's a problem like in d20 (where you were basically immune to things 5 levels lower) or WEG.

Typing out full words instead of letters is one that that is broken.

Best song ever.

But I feel like I'm missing some context as to the apparent joke. Please elucidate?

People are too lazy or whatever to type actual words, they instead use letters or abbreviations and assume everyone knows what they mean. It is just a pet peeve. I read something on the forums then I have to try to figure out what BH, FTFY, CLs, CRs, etc are. So I try to figure out what it could mean or look it up online. In the end though perhaps it is just me, but I find it frustrating that people can't type out the words that they mean and instead use letters or whatever.

/RANT ON

Dam kids and their texting! This is not a phone it is a forum. Please use complete sentences and words.

/RANT OFF

Hope that clears it up, thanks.

/RANT ON

Dam kids and their texting! This is not a phone it is a forum. Please use complete sentences and words.

/RANT OFF

Hope that clears it up, thanks.

Try relying on text to speech! Most of the abbreviations get translated so I don't even know people are using them. Every now and then, though, I get a new one. If it's completely weird, the reader will just spell it out and I can figure it out from the context or I can ask what it means. But, if you get one that the reader can try to say, it sounds like jibberish and it almost always catches me by surprise.

A week or so ago, I got a message that my phone read, "Urst bo"

Got confused for a moment but realized and asked. That was actually "IRSTBO" which apparently meant, "It really sucks the big one." so I would have been glad not to ask for that translation since my mom was with me and overheard. She taught me a lesson about vulgarity. I learned a lesson about using headphones.

She taught me a lesson about vulgarity. I learned a lesson about using headphones.

I like how the lesson she taught, is different from the one that you learned.