Hey all,

Just kind of curious what all your thoughts are. I remember when Edge of the Empire first came out, I was really excited for the Alliance and Force book. Don't get me wrong, I still am, that's not what this topic is about. No.

This system was always advertised as essentially 3 different games -- The fringer game, the war game, and the Jedi game.

I haven't really checked out TOO much of the Force and Destiny book, but from what I have, I'm a bit disappointed that they are balancing Force and Destiny with Edge of the Empire. I was always thinking (Maybe hoping?) that characters created / dipped into the Force and Destiny book would be inherently more "powerful" than those from Edge of the Empire. I *wanted* Jedi to be more powerful, even at the start of the game, as that how it (sort of) is in the lore. I wanted my players to panic if somebody drew a lightsaber. Likewise, if someone did become Force sensitive in my game and actually began down the Force and Destiny line, I wanted them to take on challenges all on their own that would just be inconceivable to Edge of the Empire players.

Anyways, so I'd love all your input as to your thoughts. Are you happy that its all one balanced playing field? Or would you have preferred it to be Gods amongst men? (So to speak.)

You can still have Jedi be more powerful than normal starting characters. A starting character in F&D is not a Jedi Knight. They may not even be a Padawan. There's an option in F&D for "Knight Level Play" where you start off at 150XP. It's for people who want to get stuck in to playing actual Jedi.

Characters are balanced across experience. So a 25XP character from EotE is probably balanced with a 25XP character from F&D. But a Jedi is not a 25XP character. No more than Boba Fett is a 25XP Bounty Hunter. Jango Fett went toe-to-toe with Obi Wan and Jango wasn't a Jedi. Don't make the mistake of thinking a starting character in either system is what you see on screen with Obi Wan, or Anakin, et al.

What many people forget is that the game actually gives you both options.

You can play a Force User that is low enough on the totem pole to be fair and balanced (Luke) or with the agreement of the GM and other players you can be given extra XP and play someone trained and experienced (Obi-Wan).

Edit to add: Knasserll expanded the notion pretty perfectly.

There are actually some fun threads discussing that in detail... what a Jedi Knight actually is, power-levels, etc.

XP is the single balancing factor.

Jedi, actual Jedi, have crap-tons of XP. The temple drills it into them. But giving a PC a lightsaber and knowledge of the Force doesn't make him a sudden superhero. This is true to the films and how we know that the universe works in Star Wars. Jedi have to train to be awesome.

Solution: If you want your Force-user to be more powerful, give him more XP! You can get some amazing synergies with a higher Force rating, Force talents, and Force powers.

Easy-peasy?

Many players come by the urge to be the truly powerful Jedi of the EU honestly, but many others are indulging in power fantasies over their fellow players.

By being balanced by default, the latter are minimized while allowing the former to have options.

Edit to add: To build off what Awayputurwpn wrote...

You are born a Force User but not born a Jedi. You become a Jedi after years of experience starting at a very young age. XP is how the game represents that.

Those are all very good points, things I never considered.

I'm not looking to power fantasy though, not at all. I guess I saw it as the Edge of the Empire and Alliance books were the "You're a Force Sensitive and maaaaaaaaybe Padawan character at most." while the Force and Destiny book was the actual "Nope, you're a Jedi true and true."

Like said, all three games are "supposed" to be separate games, so with the first two books you're the dabbling Force Sensitive / low power Force user, while the Force and Destiny character is somebody to reckon with.

Hope that makes more sense, but all your insights are good.

I actually wonder, sometimes, if they are "supposed to be" separate games or merely "capable of being" separate games.

It's a subtle semantic difference than can make a big difference.

Every system so far has balanced force users and non-force users as it's never really been gods amongst men even in EU. It's more been cooky religious cults amongst technologically advanced governments amongst technologically advanced crime families amongst everything in between. The "gods" have just been really over the top powerful masters of the force.

If you want Jedi to be extremely powerful then just make them more experienced (as stated in others' posts, experience is the balance factor in these games). I assume if you are making them obvious then it's either long before or long after the imperial rule which acts as the main setting. So you can fluff it as the only Jedi patrolling the galaxies are at least knights. Some Jedi might have very little true connection to the force power wise but may be so skilled with a saber that no one messes with them. Others may have the saber for looks because they know the basics and that's it, but can use the force in ways that make masters quiver.

Also as a side note I've always viewed FFG as advertising their Star Wars as one large system with 3 campaign "types" which were always designed to be as close to flawlessly compatible as possible while providing their own unique experience.


Lastly, I'd like to add that I personally think that making a character front and center for being force sensitive in order to make the other characters just stare in awe and how amazing s/he is...really takes away from the whole point of cinematic roleplaying. I've been the player who's character gets thrown into the "be jealous of my awesomeness" role too many times. It ruins the fun for me as now it's pretty much a single-player game with some minions tagging along and ruins the fun for the players who get cast into the shadows.



TL;DR version:

Everything's supposed to be balanced.
Avoid making a player's character turn into the shining star of the campaign.
If you want Jedi to be unfathomably powerful just chuck EXP out the window and make them as powerful as you'd like.

The last one sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually being honest. If rules are stopping you from doing what you feel both you and your players can enjoy, then don't follow them.

I wonder, what would be left in terms of growth if you could start out as a completely powerful Jedi?

I'm not looking to power fantasy though, not at all. I guess I saw it as the Edge of the Empire and Alliance books were the "You're a Force Sensitive and maaaaaaaaybe Padawan character at most." while the Force and Destiny book was the actual "Nope, you're a Jedi true and true."

Like said, all three games are "supposed" to be separate games, so with the first two books you're the dabbling Force Sensitive / low power Force user, while the Force and Destiny character is somebody to reckon with.

I actually wonder, sometimes, if they are "supposed to be" separate games or merely "capable of being" separate games.

It's a subtle semantic difference than can make a big difference.

This is from the original press release... what they've been saying from the beginning:

"In the second installment, Star Wars: Age of Rebellion, the players take the fight to the oppressive Galactic Empire as cunning spies, cocky pilots, and dedicated soldiers in the Rebel Alliance. Finally, in Star Wars: Force and Destiny, the players become figures of legend; the last surviving Force users in the galaxy. Hunted by the Empire, they must stay alive, and more importantly, stay true to the ideals of their forebearers—the fabled Jedi. Each of these independent game lines stands alone as a unique gaming experience while fully integrating with the others to form a single unified system."

People that want Jedi to start will remain Jedi for about 5.3 seconds before immediately becoming Dark/Fallen Jedi because they forget the core rules of being a Jedi.

I can pull out Yoda's quotes about the Dark side being easier/quicker, etc. Also a big old ditto to what everyone in the thread is saying.

In order to even do Anakin in Episode 1 you would have to nearly do knight level due to his technical skills. If you wanted to build Anakin in Episode 2, you are talking YEARS of training. To be mechanical about it, take Anakin Episode 1 at 150XP + racial. Add another 150(ish) to him for Episode 2. To get to full Vader, what another 2-300 XP? (Vader sounds like a big bad, but he never really does much but walk around scaring people).

So if you want to do "real Jedi" type playing, you are looking at a ton of XP. The reason is that is thinking like a video game. Heck take KOTOR 1/2 you don't start out with all the powers maxed or even any if I remember right. Or in SWTOR you don't start being a Jedi do you? no. That would be fun for all of 5 minutes. It is great for One-Shots but horrible for a real campaign.

You want to see the nightmare that would be Jedi level play? build a character with ~600 XP over racial. Build them out and you will see it will be too much to "start".

Blah I am ranting.

TL;DR, Jedi is an end, not a start. Take it slow, have fun, earn being a Jedi.

Thank you, Away.

I was thinking more in actual practice despite intent, but that quote goes a long way in context of this thread.

My brother is tinkering with a concept we may try: This character was a great and powerful Jedi who fell into depression and drink after the purge. His once strong connection to the Force is now a weak whisper. As the character adventures and gains XP, his connection will grow stronger and he will regain some of his former stature.

Lastly, I'd like to add that I personally think that making a character front and center for being force sensitive in order to make the other characters just stare in awe and how amazing s/he is...really takes away from the whole point of cinematic roleplaying. I've been the player who's character gets thrown into the "be jealous of my awesomeness" role too many times. It ruins the fun for me as now it's pretty much a single-player game with some minions tagging along and ruins the fun for the players who get cast into the shadows.

If you want Jedi to be unfathomably powerful just chuck EXP out the window and make them as powerful as you'd like.

I wonder, what would be left in terms of growth if you could start out as a completely powerful Jedi?

Likewise, if someone did become Force sensitive in my game and actually began down the Force and Destiny line, I wanted them to take on challenges all on their own that would just be inconceivable to Edge of the Empire players

I get that a lot of people probably come to these forums saying "HOW DO I BE POWERFUL LOLOLOL" . . .

. . . I can't iterate enough that's not what I'm getting at.

As my quote above shows, they would still be challenged by things that Edge of the Empire characters couldn't even fathom. There would be internal challenges, moral issues, all that. And yes, I am aware Force and Destiny does this, which I'm happy about, I just wanted peoples thoughts on the balance issues.

Edit: Easy example I can't believe I didn't use earlier . . . Well, I know why . . . because anything from Episode 1 is a last resort.

Doors open, Darth Maul is standing there. An entire SQUAD of people go "We'll . . . uh . . . we'll go the long way. Good luck, bye!" while the two Jedi step up to the challenge. Now we have a challenge in a game where the Jedi player is clearly the better of the squad, but is taking on a challenge that pushes him while the other players take on challenges that make them sweat.

So the Jedi player is clearly superior, but every character is still in the spot light evenly. And again, that player can't tackle everything . . . and if they DO start tackling everything, that should be part of the story. At what cost are they taking on the weight of the group? The planet? So on . . . How far are they pushing themselves.

I don't think anyone is accusing you specifically of being up to anything unfair, Endrek03.

However, these rules have to guard against the worst sorts of players and by illustrating what they can be like, it helps more honest players (as you seem to be) understand the situation.

Another consideration: since the default setting is the Original Trilogy, the default setting for Force Users is of a power-level that maintains the integrity of an "all but extinct" Jedi Order.

As always, individual player groups can chose to go beyond that.

Edited in response toy Endrek's edit...

This is not that "Star Wars", by default.

It is more the drama of Luke hanging upside down in a wampa cave, seeing his weapon out of reach... he calms himself... concentrates... feels the Force flowing through him... HECK YEAH! It worked! Luke is armed and the wampa soon won't be!

So the Jedi player is clearly superior, but every character is still in the spot light evenly. And again, that player can't tackle everything . . . and if they DO start tackling everything, that should be part of the story. At what cost are they taking on the weight of the group? The planet? So on . . . How far are they pushing themselves.

I emphasized the key issue in your post. The issue is, they SHOULD be challenged by what the EoTE characters can fathom.

Each player should shine at their special moments, but no character should be "clearly superior." If the only times that the other members shine is when one of them is off doing his/her own thing then you have problems there. Honestly, most people remember the epic music, the saber fight, and the deaths involving the 3 powerful force users (we're talking combined total of at least 800 exp there). Anakin was next, and lastly Padme and her small force.

Just saying, you can GM how you like, but I avoid making a single character the clear superior of the group. Nobody likes playing the side character in another player's story.

EDIT:

I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to harp on you or make you feel attacked in anyway. If everyone's having fun then go for it. Just stating that in my experience it's best avoided.

As others have said, you just have to add XP. With the way F&D is structured, you have the option of starting as a youngling. I'm not saying I'd want to but the option is there and the rules are balanced enough that you can do it if you choose.

So the Jedi player is clearly superior, but every character is still in the spot light evenly. And again, that player can't tackle everything . . . and if they DO start tackling everything, that should be part of the story. At what cost are they taking on the weight of the group? The planet? So on . . . How far are they pushing themselves.

I emphasized the key issue in your post. The issue is, they SHOULD be challenged by what the EoTE characters can fathom.

Each player should shine at their special moments, but no character should be "clearly superior." If the only times that the other members shine is when one of them is off doing his/her own thing then you have problems there. Honestly, most people remember the epic music, the saber fight, and the deaths involving the 3 powerful force users (we're talking combined total of at least 800 exp there). Anakin was next, and lastly Padme and her small force.

Just saying, you can GM how you like, but I avoid making a single character the clear superior of the group. Nobody likes playing the side character in another player's story.

EDIT:

I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to harp on you or make you feel attacked in anyway. If everyone's having fun then go for it. Just stating that in my experience it's best avoided.

As others have said, you just have to add XP. With the way F&D is structured, you have the option of starting as a youngling. I'm not saying I'd want to but the option is there and the rules are balanced enough that you can do it if you choose.

No worries at all, Zan. I think both these quotes are exactly what this topic is about, or meant to be about.

I always pictured F&D being the big start of Jedi and Sith, so I was just caught off guard when they are going for universal balance as so many other RPGs did. Just wanted input from everybody else as to their thoughts.

And, as mentioned in another topic, I do a pretty deep story with my campaigns. If there is a clear cut "superior" character, that character is going to be put under a microscope and then a meatgrinder to really challenge them, physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Each player should shine at their special moments, but no character should be "clearly superior." If the only times that the other members shine is when one of them is off doing his/her own thing then you have problems there.

Just saying, you can GM how you like, but I avoid making a single character the clear superior of the group. Nobody likes playing the side character in another player's story.

These are probably the only sentences I do disagree with though. Each player IS shining. In the given example, the Jedi's are doing their Jedi thing, and the other players are going after the target, the MAIN reason they are at the location together. If anything, you could argue the Jedi's are just screwing around and not contributing to the objective, so I definitely couldn't say the others are "off doing their own thing.".

But this is the task of the GM, to design a story that compliments all players, entertains, and allows them all to contribute. If you have a great group of players, I don't think there is a problem with "Yeah . . . this situation? This is the Jedi's job. Let US get back to what we were supposed to do." Without them, the Jedi would fail, and without the Jedi, they would fail.

If you have not peeked at the Force & Destiny Beta fora, Endrek, I highly recommend you do so.

I don't have the beta book and I still spend a lot of time reading those threads.

It really seems like the management of expectations (and you certainly have/had high ones) is going to be an important issue.

I did take a quick gander, which is why I was so confused when so many people were crying balance. And yes, it certainly is a management of expectations, which is why I'm curious as to what other peoples were. Were you guys expecting balance or were you going to be okay with F&D created characters being "more powerful" on the scope of the book trilogy?

I did take a quick gander, which is why I was so confused when so many people were crying balance. And yes, it certainly is a management of expectations, which is why I'm curious as to what other peoples were. Were you guys expecting balance or were you going to be okay with F&D created characters being "more powerful" on the scope of the book trilogy?

To answer your question I expected "balance but with options" and so far, I feel that my expectations are going to be met.

You see it in a lot of threads: What is a Jedi, really... What exactly is the meaning of a knight... how much EU do you like to make use of... All that kind of thing.

For every "Star Wars" fan you can have a different answer. I like that the game skewed to caution so we can just go by the rules as written when disputes arise... But offers each of us the tools to spin-off into our own versions when appropriate.

*ranting old man voice*

And ANOTHER thing... Going to your Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan v Maul example... You can achieve a similar effect by making such an encounter about the differences in skillsets rather than the power level between PCs.

*ranting old man voice*

And ANOTHER thing... Going to your Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan v Maul example... You can achieve a similar effect by making such an encounter about the differences in skillsets rather than the power level between PCs.

I might agree with you . . . but I'm a bit confused precisely what you mean. Want to clarify? You can keep the old man voice if you please.

*ranting old man voice*

And ANOTHER thing... Going to your Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan v Maul example... You can achieve a similar effect by making such an encounter about the differences in skillsets rather than the power level between PCs.

I might agree with you . . . but I'm a bit confused precisely what you mean. Want to clarify? You can keep the old man voice if you please.

When the players face a sith... and as a storyteller you want this to be where the Jedi has his moment in the limelight... You could, by storytelling or mechanics depending on the team as a whole, make it clear that the villainous dark sider has a counter for simple blasters or what-have you.

Ah, but even though he is no more experienced than the gunsliging Smuggler, the Jedi has the Force as his ally and the sorcerous ways of the sith are less effective against him. He is not the superior power, but the right man for the job.

I did take a quick gander, which is why I was so confused when so many people were crying balance. And yes, it certainly is a management of expectations, which is why I'm curious as to what other peoples were. Were you guys expecting balance or were you going to be okay with F&D created characters being "more powerful" on the scope of the book trilogy?

A few Jedi fan-boys were expecting epic powers above and beyond normal players.

Pretty much everyone with any real experience in any system was expecting balance because it's almost required to have fun. Being epically more powerful then the other players in games like this is fun if you're the person who is more powerful. For the rest it's not fun at all. It's like being invited to a friends house to play Smash Bros. only to find there's only one controller and the guy playing thought you were coming over just to watch him beat the game over and over.

There's some debate on the details, but pretty much everyone here will agree that the game does allow you to get pretty darn close to what you see in the films without going totally bonkers.

So the example you gave (and supporting Aluminum Falcon):

Doors open, Darth Maul is standing there. An entire SQUAD of people go "We'll . . . uh . . . we'll go the long way. Good luck, bye!" while the two Jedi step up to the challenge.

Obi-wan (a player specced for saberness), Qui-gon (also a player specced with some saber action), Anakin (a player specced as a pilot... also possibly played by the same guy playing Qui-gon), Padme (a player specced for support and face) Panaka (a Rival Level NPC specc for ranged combat) and two or three minion groups (specced to be ablative armor and boost dice for Padme and Panaka) are looking at Darth Maul (a Nemesis, specced for hardcore combat with a lightsaber) while Jar-jar (another player with a sick sense of humor) ran a big battle in another location.

Padme and Anakin didn't leave because:

Player Natalie: oh... well I'm not a powerful Jedi, I'm just a princess, so I'm gonna run away.

They ran because

Player Natalie:Oh...this guy is looks like he's gonna be tough and whack my Minions if we charge in, not to mention tie us up while Jar-jar learns the true meaning of pain... Why don't you two saber guys with your Parry talents lock this guy down so we can get to the Viceroy and have him stop the droids before they eat Jar-jar.

Player Jake: Good idea... and I'll steal a starfighter as a backup plan!

Player Ewan: Yeah, we got this. Hang in there Ahmed. I mean Jar-jar

Player Ahmed: Youssa people gonna die!

Player Liam: I'm sure that'll never happen.

Each book is separate. Each book looks at the "post- A New Hope" Star Wars Universe from "a different point of view". Each book is fully compatible with each other. Some FFG people have been quoted as saying that Edge of the Empire is akin to A New Hope, Age of Rebellion is akin to The Empire Strikes Back, and Force & Destiny is akin to Return of the Jedi.

The different books aren't similar to the way FFG has done the RPG books for their Warhammer 40k setting with different power levels for each book. To reflect Episode 1-3, you need XP. Lots of XP. These games have the Dark Times at their heart, so if you want to play anything outside of the fact that the Jedi are either dead, mad, turned or in hiding, then best throw XP at your characters.

For me, the game I will be running will be set 5 years after Order 66, and one of the players want to play a former Padawan who managed to escape the slaughter and into the Outer Rim. I umm'ed and ahh'ed one how to do it with starting characters - basically - it can't. Cut the cord, give them 150XP and enjoy. If it doesn't work, wrap up the story and go again with that knowledge under you belt.