FFG is doing some great Christmas on some of their books.

I was looking into taking advantage of a few of these, but I have some questions.

The first book isn't really a Deathwatch book, it is Daemon Hunters for Dark Heresy. I remember it had a lot of stuff about Grey Knights even some stuff about playing a Grey Knight in a Deathwatch game. Has anyone tried it. How did it work out.

The second book I am looking at is First Founding . It give information on Chapters that sound interesting to me. I also heard a rumor that it gives rules for Dreadnoughts.

The third book I am looking at is Honour the Chapter . I like the idea about being able to play more chapters, but I'm not all that excited about the chapters that are in the book. But then again I don't know much a bout them. How many of you out there have used this book? How cool are these other chapters?

The last book I am considering is Jerico Reach , but I am not really sure what is in this book.

For those of you who have baught these books, do you like them? How much do you use them?

Is there some other book that I really should be looking to get but haven't mentioned.

I have all these books. Personally I think they are all worth getting but I am a collector at heart which makes me biased about their utility.

Rites of Battle rather than First Founding has rules for PC and NPc dreadnoughts including Chaos dreadnoughts. In practice Pc dreadnoughts is a way of bringing back dead PCs for one shot adventures rather than any kind of game breaking upgrade.

I really liked Honour the Chapter but it is the PCs more than the GM who will get the most benefit and then primarily if they want to play some of the more unusual chapters. My group has a Fleshtearer and a Raptor so it was useful.

Demon Hunter grey knights are a nice touch but I would advise against allowing a PC to straight out play a Grey Knight in a Deathwatch game.

First Founding is well worth getting just because it rounds off the missing chapters (how storm wardens and Black Templars got in over White Scars and Iron Hands I'll never know). The info about traitor legions is a bit disappointing. I have a Iron Hands in the group so the book is essential. It also rounds off the specialist careers with things like Wolf Priests and Honour Guard which are nice

I have a major NPc who is an Ultramarine honour guard so very useful.

I said I had every book

This wad a mistake I don't have Jericho Reach.

In summary all of them are useful I think for the average Gm honour the Chapter and First Founding are most useful but if you don't have it Rites of Battle is a MUST.

You say you advise against PCs playing Grey Knights. Why is that? Is this because they are more powerful, or because they aren't as well developed, or do they not fit in Deathwatch as much as the other chapters.

Edit: I love Grey Knights, they are by far my favorite chapter.

I like the demon hunter book *but* the multitude of monsters in there are scaled for DH so they are absolutely no threat to marines sans hording it up. The grey knight section is very nice. I had a whole team of players as GK and it was fun.

I don't think any Grey Knights do serve in the Deathwatch anyway, as they're both Ordo Militant and the Grey Knights aren't technically a chapter who are obliged to give up their (some would say, not me, but I digress) more important troops who could be fighting those pesky daemons. When it comes down to it in-game they're for DH and in lore they're not going to provide troops to the deathwatch for more than a mission, if that mission happens to be alongside their Daemon and Heretic killing agenda. (This was an assumption based on lack of hearing about such a join up, correct me if I'm wrong guys!)

I think playing a all Grey Knights campaign could be cool but mixing them with Deathwatch just seems a bit off for exactly the same reasons Darth said. Their space marines yes, but they are also very different to other space marines. It would almost be like if a Rogue Trader or hell just a powerful Navigator was permanently assigned to a Deathwatch squad. It might have a useful purpose or have tactical uses but you would also be like 'why is she here?'

Actually that's not completely fair, if the campaign revolved around xenos who extensively used deamons then I guess the Grey Knights might be used, though I suspect for that project The two groups would work together but apart.

The Grey Knights are big on predictions/prophecies/the like, so I can see where they might dispatch one or more Battle Brothers to join the Deathwatch in response to a prediction, especially if they weren't clear on all the details.

Said Grey Knight(s) would probably enter the Deathwatch in the guise of a Black Shield.

Would probably be fairly rare circumstances that would require a long term liaison. Short term joint ops would probably be somewhat more common, though still infrequent.

I have all the books as well. The order to buy in order of priority

1. Main Book

2. Rites of Battle (if you can FIND IT?!?)

3. Mark of Xenos - This is the monster manual

4. Honor The Chapter / First Founding are for making sure you have full spectrum of character creation options

5. Jericho Reach - Achilles Assault - Outer Reaches - Outstanding if you are going to play in Jericho Reach. If not, then just outer reaches, because of the Necron rules.

I think playing a all Grey Knights campaign could be cool but mixing them with Deathwatch just seems a bit.

.off for exactly the same reasons Death said. Their space marines yes, but they are also very different to other space marines. It would almost be like if a Rogue Trader or he'll just a powerful Navigator was permanently assigned to a Deathwatch squad. It might have a useful purpose or have tactical uses but you would also be like 'why is she here?'

Actually that's not completely fair, if the campaign revolved around xenos who extensively used deamons then I guess the Grey Knights might be used, though I suspect for that project The two groups would work together but apart.

Very true, as are everybody elses opinions (I hadn't thought of Black Shields actually, Javcs.) However, I picked yours because death. It's Drath.

I get that the Grey Knights are the Militant arm of the Ordo Malaus, while the Deathwatch are the Militant arm of the Ordo Xenos and that the Grey Knights don't send marines to the Deathwatch.

Let me refine my question a bit. Are their rule/balance issues with the Grey Knights or are everyone's issues with them thematic/fluff related?

Mine are strictly fluff related. Grey Knights kill everyone who see them, sometimes that includes loyalist marines.

I think playing a all Grey Knights campaign could be cool but mixing them with Deathwatch just seems a bit.

.off for exactly the same reasons Death said. Their space marines yes, but they are also very different to other space marines. It would almost be like if a Rogue Trader or he'll just a powerful Navigator was permanently assigned to a Deathwatch squad. It might have a useful purpose or have tactical uses but you would also be like 'why is she here?'

Actually that's not completely fair, if the campaign revolved around xenos who extensively used deamons then I guess the Grey Knights might be used, though I suspect for that project The two groups would work together but apart.

Very true, as are everybody elses opinions (I hadn't thought of Black Shields actually, Javcs.) However, I picked yours because death. It's Drath.

Yes recently I've been posting alot with my smart phone. The predictive text is uh operated by a truculent machine spirit

Mine are strictly fluff related. Grey Knights kill everyone who see them, sometimes that includes loyalist marines.

If that's the only obstacle, I'd point out that even if you do stick to "external" fluff not mentioned in the game's own books, the GKs do not always kill everyone they come across. At least GW's material mentions that less expendable troops, which may mean anything above non-veteran Guard regiments, are merely mindwiped.

Which could actually be a cool thing to roleplay, when you have your characters knowing that they're missing memory, and debating whether they should just accept it like good little soldiers, or ponder about what may have happened, and whether they deserve to know.

That being said, the idea of "mixed squads" still sounds weird to me. But the fluff is what you make of it!

Though also bare in mind the main reason the Imperium kills those who witness the Grey Knights isn't because of the Grey Knights, it's because they fight demons. The chances are if you come across a Squad of Grey Kngihts and realise just what the hell they are, then it is because the human waste product has just collided with the whirly spinny thing due to a full blown demon incursion of one kind of another. If you have some how survived that to be in a position to be put down the chances are you are;

a) Horribly mutated due to exposure to the raw stuff of chaos/horribly corrupted/had your soul eaten

b) A glibbering madman.

In either of those cases putting you down rather than leaving you to spout insane nonsense about 'Slate Angels battling hellspawn while the galaxy burns...' is probably a kindness (in WH40K terms)

Point being that it is not like the Grey Knights are out shopping for milk or somesuch and get recognised by photographers and the Inquisition are required to purge all the readers of Hello magazine.

Though also bare in mind the main reason the Imperium kills those who witness the Grey Knights isn't because of the Grey Knights, it's because they fight demons.

I recall this being subject to much debate, because as usual, various sources disagree with one another when it comes to details such as these.

But as far as the GK's 5E codex is concerned:

Also, it'd kind of suck for Marines not to know what to expect when facing their CSM buddies.

Forbidden lore traitor legions is separate from forbidden lore demonology so you can learn about the CSM without learning about their demon allies.

In my group we played no skill meant you knew the HH occurred and that there were traitors and basic traitor markings, but didn't know any specifics about legion, primarchs, etc (unless your chapter had a specific beef) and you certainly didn't know the chaos motivation involved.

Forbidden lore traitor legions is separate from forbidden lore demonology so you can learn about the CSM without learning about their demon allies.

Oh, I didn't mean game mechanics but background. It's certainly a matter of interpretation, but I just don't think there are a lot of Space Marines who don't know about the existence of daemons.

But as you said, it depends on the group, and the version of fluff they subscribe to!

Though also bare in mind the main reason the Imperium kills those who witness the Grey Knights isn't because of the Grey Knights, it's because they fight demons.

I recall this being subject to much debate, because as usual, various sources disagree with one another when it comes to details such as these.

But as far as the GK's 5E codex is concerned:

"Even amongst other Space Marines, the Grey Knights are largely considered to be creatures of rumour. Only a few Chapters have been granted official knowledge of the Grey Knights' existence, and then only because they are frequently co-opted by the Inquisition. For Imperial Guardsmen and the common citizens of the Imperium, the Grey Knights simply do not exist outisde of myth.

The veil of secrecy surrounding the Grey Knights is closely guarded, and both they and the Inquisition go to great and often brutal lengths to maintain it. Knowledge is power, and the denial of knowledge is therefore one of the Chapter's most basic defences. The Grey Knights act alone wherever possible, both to protect other servants of the Emperor from knowledge of the Chapter's existence, and also to deny others of even an inkling of the scale and scope of the daemonic threat. Yet not all campaigns can be won through the deeds of the Grey Knights alone, and the warriors of Titan often find themselves battling at the side of brother Space Marines, the Imperial Guard, or elements of the Imperium's other armies. In such circumstances, the Inquisition must take drastic measures to ensure that the secrecy of the Grey Knights is preserved.

At the end of such battles, those Imperial Guardsmen who survive are invariably executed. They are a plentiful resource, and one easily replenished, so the Inquisition favours a terminal sanction to ensure their silence. Naturally, there are exceptions, and should a company or regiment exhibit sufficient heroism on the field of battle, the sentence of death will occasionally be commuted to a thorough and excruciating telepathic scouring (which itself has a high mortality rate) to ensure that they do not recall anything that the Grey Knights consider dangerous. Space Marines are too valuable a commodity to wilfully be cast aside, and so they are instead subjected to a more time-consuming, but markedly safer mindwipe process. Most go willingly, readily making a sacrifice of self so that they might continue to serve the Emperor. Those few who resist share the fate of the Imperial Guardsmen. Once again, there are exceptions, but only for those very few Chapters in which the Inquisition has complete trust - or at least as close to complete trust as an organisation like the Inquisition can permit."

It ... kind of makes sense, at least if you go by GW's depiction of the setting. I mean, it's not just the GKs who fight the daemonic, as there are plenty recorded incidents in both the IG and SM codices of various Guard regiments and Astartes chapters butting heads with a bunch of daemons - yet there is not just no mention of subsequent mindwipes (or mass executions), but various fights have become an established part of some Chapters' history.

Also, it'd kind of suck for Marines not to know what to expect when facing their CSM buddies.

True, though my understanding was always that contact with deamonic incursions invariably led to mindwipings of marines which were fully sanctioned and organised by the Chapters themselves . I don't think most Chapters would underestimate the moral threat that contact with the demonic would represent.

As for guard, the fluff is pretty inconsistent here. During the First war of Armaggedon the entire civillian population and surviving Imperial guard were purged. A company of Grey Knights were used but it doesn't seem credible that anything like a sizeable percentage of the population even knew they were involved or that the Inquisition couldn't have put in place appropriate containment protocols to limit the purges to a couple of degrees of seperation. Indeed the fact that there are even rumours of the Grey Knights indicate that the Inquisition aren't worried about minimal knowledge of them leaking.

Which brings us back to why the major purge took place, which I believe is primarly due to the demonic incursion itself.

The real inconsistency is to what extent the Inquisition will acknowledge or allow to be known the threat of the demonic.

For example if a Chaos Cultist summons a handful of lesser deamons and these are cut to pieces by a Guard regiment, it would be far easier to portray the demons as horrific xenos, arrange for any 'trouble makers' to have accidents and ensure that new experienced Commissars are posted to the regiment to watch for issues. The alternative of terminating the entire regiment would actually bring more attention to the battle and might have various officers or Munitorium officials asking questions.

If you really want to dig into how a process like this would actually work, you'd probably have a cabal of Inquisitors or high ranking/experienced Interrogators working deep cover in the Department Munitorium. The work wouldn't be glamerous but incredibly important.

It could involve doctoring records, deciding which Guard regiments should be destroyed, which should be allowed to survive. I would imagine some would be isolated and grouped together with other Guard regiments who had fought against deamons to act as a reserve of Guard that were paridoxically experienced but also expendable.

They could gather data on levels of corruption following exposure to demonic incursions to establish trends for example by reviewing the records of veterans and officers who had undergone mind wiping.

They could also be the ones who put the official requests for aid from Space Marine Chapters that could be relied on to approach the battle with a knowledge of what was expected. That way from begining to end the Department Munitorium could manage a campaign agains the demonic forces without actually knowing what they were fighting.

I can just imagine an Inquisitor on the ground sending a vox message to requisition Z9-44/5 support from the Department Munitorium. This gets received by some admin who only knows that a Z9-44/5 request needs to be fowarded to special requests department 5 (special requests in this case mainly deals with civillian vehicles or something equally innocous). In department 5 is an Inquisitor who knows that a Z9-44/5 request is a high priority request requiring the Excorist Chapter. He puts foward the request brieifng in appropriate terms. The Excorist Chapter Chief Librarian knows the request is associated with a Lord of Change. He recommends the marines that should be assigned to the Chapter Master who duly sends them to the planet. Subsequently the marines except the Chief Librarian are mind wiped.

As far as the record reads an Inquisitor put foward in a special unspecified request which was dealt with in the normal way. In an unrelated matter a half squad of Astartes were recorded as arriving on the planet to lend their assistance. Nothing even needs to be redacted from the record.

In a process that potentially involved dozens of individuals only the Inquisitor and the Chief Librarian know that a Lord of Change was defeated.

Essentially there could conceivably be entire groups of Ordo Malleus Inquisitors who had never even seen a deamon but were the cornor stone of the fight against the Outer Dark.

(wow that went off on a bit of tangent!)

I'm just saying, even if the Inquisition was convinced that keeping the existence of daemons secret from humanity's strongest defenders instead of telling them what they should watch out for was somehow a smart idea, how likely is it that they managed to do so over a span of 10.000 years, given that a whole lot of Astartes Chapters are a bit "reluctant" when it comes to being told what to do?

pictured: Black Templars banner of the Vinculus Crusade, celebrating High Marshal Ludoldus' and Canoness Jasmine's victory against a massive Daemon of Khorne (4th Edition Codex:BT)

Which might also explain how there are at least rumours about the Grey Knights. As long as there are survivors, someone is going to spill the beans, somewhere, and some time, regardless of whether they are supposed to or not. But as far as the quote posted above goes, the Inquisition at the very least does attempt to keep knowledge about them as limited as possible. And obviously, even this would depend on the individual Inquisitor.

Well there's a difference between mind wiping someone so they don't remember the experiences (or some of the Experiences) and not telling them what happened. Space Marines probably do know about deamons but individual marines might have particular encounter expunged. My point is that I don't think the Inquisition mind wipes individuals to be obtuse but because it is safer for the individual. it's for this reason that I think Chapters would organise their own mind wiping even without Inquisition involvement.

Hmm, I don't even think the Chapters would have the necessary equipment, unless the Imperium as a whole has at some point made it standard procedure. Either way, I just can't see all Chapters voluntarily give up on experience in combat against daemonic enemies, and if the more independent-minded groups of Astartes don't do it, it would be counter-productive by the Inquisition to insist on it towards the ones who remain in full obedience towards Terra...

Not that I doubt the Astartes would not realise the risk of the daemonic, but they'd likely underestimate it and simply assume to stand above it. Pride as a weakness is one of the thematic elements of Space Marines as a faction, an important part of their mythical origins (-> Horus Heresy) ... and a continuous supply of new CSM.

Well, it is a matter of interpretation - in this case on the topic of Chapter culture.

I get that the Grey Knights are the Militant arm of the Ordo Malaus, while the Deathwatch are the Militant arm of the Ordo Xenos and that the Grey Knights don't send marines to the Deathwatch.

Let me refine my question a bit. Are their rule/balance issues with the Grey Knights or are everyone's issues with them thematic/fluff related?

As far as rules go, I can't say for sure. Deathwatch characters get squad and solo mode abilities, and their advancement tables work differently. Plus there is the matter of demeanor, and psychic powers. I haven't looked up the grey Knights book in some time, so I cant say if they get stuff to help balance that put or if you'd have to make something up.

They have psychic powers, but how that compares to DW characters exactly, I have no idea.

But I'd assume it is the most compatible character archetype from any of the other games out there, for obvious reasons. If there really is an interest in the group, I'd say give it a try. Worst case, it should be fairly easy to houserule any tweaks on the fly.

Hmm, I don't even think the Chapters would have the necessary equipment, unless the Imperium as a whole has at some point made it standard procedure. Either way, I just can't see all Chapters voluntarily give up on experience in combat against daemonic enemies, and if the more independent-minded groups of Astartes don't do it, it would be counter-productive by the Inquisition to insist on it towards the ones who remain in full obedience towards Terra...

Not that I doubt the Astartes would not realise the risk of the daemonic, but they'd likely underestimate it and simply assume to stand above it. Pride as a weakness is one of the thematic elements of Space Marines as a faction, an important part of their mythical origins (-> Horus Heresy) ... and a continuous supply of new CSM.

Well, it is a matter of interpretation - in this case on the topic of Chapter culture.

As for equipment the marines have the ability to pretty thoroughly hypnoindoctrinate their brothers maybe they just turn the process up to 11 ;-)

I get that the Grey Knights are the Militant arm of the Ordo Malaus, while the Deathwatch are the Militant arm of the Ordo Xenos and that the Grey Knights don't send marines to the Deathwatch.

Let me refine my question a bit. Are their rule/balance issues with the Grey Knights or are everyone's issues with them thematic/fluff related?

As far as rules go, I can't say for sure. Deathwatch characters get squad and solo mode abilities, and their advancement tables work differently. Plus there is the matter of demeanor, and psychic powers. I haven't looked up the grey Knights book in some time, so I cant say if they get stuff to help balance that put or if you'd have to make something up.

The Grey Knights don't get squad or solo mode abilities, but they do get to cooperate with one another and join their psychic abilities together.

Also, they don't get Armor Histories and Quirks, they get the Aegis stuff in their armor boosting their defenses against psychic attacks.

As far as mindwiping Astartes who encounter daemons ... there's no support for that being standard practice anywhere. All Astartes are expected to know how to fight all the enemies of Mankind, including Chaos, which means daemons. And deliberately getting rid of combat experience is usually a bad idea.

I'll concede that sometimes selective mindwiping is probably done, but it would not be standard practice and would be reserved for extreme situations.