I don't think that was off-topic at all. It was spot on and couldn't agree more. Tech-Priests have very specific roles and near universal characteristics shared by all of their kind. All this said, they actually fit into very few unit/regiment types. As much as a player may want to play one, a GM has to know when to say "no."

Youre missing a point. In Only War you don't play just any kind of techpriest. You play enginseers. More to that, you play enginseers on a battlefield. They cant run to the library or consult older colleague when they need a chant. They often have to invent stuff on the spot, improvise with parts usage and find unusal solutions to problems. Usually there is no techpriest around them so they wont probably suffer any consequences of their unorthodoxy. Besides theyre under constant influence of the irbsquadmates that live and die with them in trenches. That results in highly individualistic character that may drift away from its origins as far as one can imagine.

What makes you believe that? Any Regiment will have dozens if not hundreds of Enginseers working together to various degrees. They'd stick together and most likely be under the command of a senior Tech-Priest.

That being said, I don't agree with Traejun saying that Enginseers fit into very few unit/regiment types - Enginseers fit in almost universally, whether they maintain tanks or the weapons, or provide key advice on enemy technology, or simply assists in the building of whatever needs constructing.

Couldn't disagree more. Enginseers would not be part of a light infantry regiment, much less a squad. They don't need to be there to maintain lasguns. That simply makes no sense. Vehicle regiments have many... boot infantry doesn't.

Why on Terra wouldn't enginseers be present in a footslogger regiment? Infantrymen takes care of basic maintenance of their own equipment at best. Even a light infantry regiment is going to have support vehicles, command structures, maintenance issues (whether for basic amenities/functionality, vehicles, or buildings).

Nevermind battlefield advisors or strategic/tactical know-how in terms of enemy equipment and analysis.

On the individual squads level, the presence of the enginseer is no more questionable than most any other single support specialist. You'll have to make up an excuse for why they are attached to this particular squad whether it's a psyker, a priest, a bleedin' stormtrooper or an enginseer.

Thankfully, the excuse for the enginseer is pretty simple - "You need someone to go with you and analyse the forward flux capacitors of the enemy infantry and assess the vehicular capabilities when possible." Duh.

Also, you sure as hell is going to need a contingent of the Omnissiah's finest present when the camp suffers shelling, the generators break down, or the mobile armoury is run over by a squiggoth.

The guide for the engineers will be out tomorrow.

I'm with Fgdsfg, but I'll put all my opinions in today's guuide.

Or they wouldnt stick together... depends on situation. Thats why I wrote "usually there is no other tech-priest around them".

As to second paragraph I agree woth you in 100%. Thats why I wrote that having TP player is challenge for GM. Youve got to be open-minded for more engineer-like kind of approach.

Why wouldn't they, though? Enginseers are all from the Adeptus Mechanicus and belong to the Cult Mechanicus - they're from a distinctly separate culture, religion and command structure to that of the Imperium and the Imperial Guard or Navy. Yes, they have been (sometimes loosly) integrated into the regimental command structure, or had their own structure transposed over that of the Imperium (and vice-versa), but they are still distinctly different.

I'm willing to agree that there can be situations and circumstances that may lead to what you describe, but in those extreme situations, we're also talking about the possibility of the regular soldiers straight-up defecting or turning to heresy. It is far from the norm.

Well, because they... are not numerous enough? Have you seen techpriest only squads in a regular IG regiment? Have you had multiple techpriest squads of PC's or NPC's of tech-priests. Have you even seen an image with TWO techpriest enginseer and not one? I hadn't and I don't think any one had. They are too few to maintain their culture and not to assimilate.

I don't think that was off-topic at all. It was spot on and couldn't agree more. Tech-Priests have very specific roles and near universal characteristics shared by all of their kind. All this said, they actually fit into very few unit/regiment types. As much as a player may want to play one, a GM has to know when to say "no."

Youre missing a point. In Only War you don't play just any kind of techpriest. You play enginseers. More to that, you play enginseers on a battlefield. They cant run to the library or consult older colleague when they need a chant. They often have to invent stuff on the spot, improvise with parts usage and find unusal solutions to problems. Usually there is no techpriest around them so they wont probably suffer any consequences of their unorthodoxy. Besides theyre under constant influence of the irbsquadmates that live and die with them in trenches. That results in highly individualistic character that may drift away from its origins as far as one can imagine.

What makes you believe that? Any Regiment will have dozens if not hundreds of Enginseers working together to various degrees. They'd stick together and most likely be under the command of a senior Tech-Priest.

That being said, I don't agree with Traejun saying that Enginseers fit into very few unit/regiment types - Enginseers fit in almost universally, whether they maintain tanks or the weapons, or provide key advice on enemy technology, or simply assists in the building of whatever needs constructing.

Couldn't disagree more. Enginseers would not be part of a light infantry regiment, much less a squad. They don't need to be there to maintain lasguns. That simply makes no sense. Vehicle regiments have many... boot infantry doesn't.

And what about building trenches, bunkers, digging canals, blowing up structures? Maintaining and exploring space stations, voidships and other technical facilities, educating guardsmen, upgrading gear. They can also make found pieces of technology usable for the regiment. Somebody has to know how to do this.

What about using environment to kill the enemies? Using terminals to access to CCTV cameras, close or open the doors, turning on and off the light, ventilation systems, elevators etc.

You see? I wrote that it's a bigger challenge for MG to have TP PC than the opposite.

I just throw my 2 thrones.

While some of you are right that tech priest can be present if almost any regiment if you explain it right but not in squad. It will be boring when every session you need to make up some stupid reason why same tech priest must acompany same squad again. They have more important jobs than scout jungle with recon squad or assault bunker with siege infantry. I agree that they fit right with tank or mechanised infantry but not so much with rest? Did you ever see catachan squad with tech priest?

Also i think it's wrong that players can play support classes. First, it's a game about guardsmans not about team of adventurers like dark heresy and second those classes have some serious balance issues. Of course for high level play it can be logical that veterans from few wars have tech priest or psyker in their squad but when you play "standard" only war about common troopers you need far-fetched explanation for their appearance.

I object.

Here's one reason for support classes; Options.

If you want a stock guardsman experience in your game, then ban them in your game. But some people might, say, want a squad of Stormtroopers accompanied by a Psyker for a spec ops campaign idea.

The options are there presented. Use them, or don't, but don't tell people they shouldn't have the choice.

Further to that. If you've ever seen a game go above 5000xp, support classes are awful compared to the tactical flexibility of a well played guardsman. They are inflexible and genersly doomed to niche roles.

Meanwhile, one of my guardsman PCs has 100 Medicae base, 53 BS, called shots on no penalty, can use one comrade as a spotter for a free aim bonus while the other four volley fire. She also has 100 in Forbidden Lore (Xenos), Commerce, and can use basically every weapon in the guard armoury.

Once you get to higher XP totals (5000+), most support classes seem to pale. Notable exceptions being Techpriests and Psykers. Maybe "Terror Priests" too. Still need to field test that build.

I don't think that was off-topic at all. It was spot on and couldn't agree more. Tech-Priests have very specific roles and near universal characteristics shared by all of their kind. All this said, they actually fit into very few unit/regiment types. As much as a player may want to play one, a GM has to know when to say "no."

Youre missing a point. In Only War you don't play just any kind of techpriest. You play enginseers. More to that, you play enginseers on a battlefield. They cant run to the library or consult older colleague when they need a chant. They often have to invent stuff on the spot, improvise with parts usage and find unusal solutions to problems. Usually there is no techpriest around them so they wont probably suffer any consequences of their unorthodoxy. Besides theyre under constant influence of the irbsquadmates that live and die with them in trenches. That results in highly individualistic character that may drift away from its origins as far as one can imagine.

What makes you believe that? Any Regiment will have dozens if not hundreds of Enginseers working together to various degrees. They'd stick together and most likely be under the command of a senior Tech-Priest.

That being said, I don't agree with Traejun saying that Enginseers fit into very few unit/regiment types - Enginseers fit in almost universally, whether they maintain tanks or the weapons, or provide key advice on enemy technology, or simply assists in the building of whatever needs constructing.

Couldn't disagree more. Enginseers would not be part of a light infantry regiment, much less a squad. They don't need to be there to maintain lasguns. That simply makes no sense. Vehicle regiments have many... boot infantry doesn't.

Why on Terra wouldn't enginseers be present in a footslogger regiment? Infantrymen takes care of basic maintenance of their own equipment at best. Even a light infantry regiment is going to have support vehicles, command structures, maintenance issues (whether for basic amenities/functionality, vehicles, or buildings).

Nevermind battlefield advisors or strategic/tactical know-how in terms of enemy equipment and analysis.

On the individual squads level, the presence of the enginseer is no more questionable than most any other single support specialist. You'll have to make up an excuse for why they are attached to this particular squad whether it's a psyker, a priest, a bleedin' stormtrooper or an enginseer.

Thankfully, the excuse for the enginseer is pretty simple - "You need someone to go with you and analyse the forward flux capacitors of the enemy infantry and assess the vehicular capabilities when possible." Duh.

Also, you sure as hell is going to need a contingent of the Omnissiah's finest present when the camp suffers shelling, the generators break down, or the mobile armoury is run over by a squiggoth.

Why wouldn't they be there is the wrong question. When assigning a specialist of any kind to any military unit, the question should be why is this person with this group. The answer is simple: most of the time, they simply won't be. An enginseer has a very specific role in the guard other than being another combatant (which pretty much everyone is first and foremost). While there very well may be an enginseer or 2 attached to some boot infantry force, they would be headquarters specialists - operating outside the normal company/squad structure to perform their very specific and specialized tasks.

Could one be attached to a random squad going out on an op? Sure. But there would need to be a reason for that in order to justify placing that specialist at risk. For an Enginseer, the circumstance can be intel stating there's a manufactora up ahead, or a comm tower... something that would warrant an Enginseer being involved. A regular recon into the bush? Hell naw. The commander that places the Enginseer at risk in that wasteful and nonsensical a way is not long for his/her position. Having one permanently attached to some random squad of boots just makes no sense.

Let's all remember, this is the Imperial Guard. It's a military force and is, therefore, organized and decisions made with an eye to military logic. GM's should keep that in mind when running OW games. If you'd rather please your players by letting them play whatever... you are free to do so. If I tried to do something like that, my players would probably look at my funny.

I ask again to keep things on topic with the Commissar role please.

I ask again to keep things on topic with the Commissar role please.

K... commissars... don't belong in regular squad as a member or its leader. Period. If you want to have one in your campaign, the only way to make it make any form of logical sense is to have the commissar in place of a sergeant, with the rest of the squad being his/her personal squad/bodyguards/henchmen. I can't imagine that being much fun for the other players, but that's ultimately about your players and you.

...before you even point to the couple instances in the fluff where a commissar was some kind of glorious commander of an entire regiment of special snowflake heroes... those are exceptions, not the rule.

I ask again to keep things on topic with the Commissar role please.

K... commissars... don't belong in regular squad as a member or its leader. Period. If you want to have one in your campaign, the only way to make it make any form of logical sense is to have the commissar in place of a sergeant, with the rest of the squad being his/her personal squad/bodyguards/henchmen. I can't imagine that being much fun for the other players, but that's ultimately about your players and you.

Could be part of the Terrax Guard , or a regiment based on similar principles. Not to mention the new Militarum Tempestus armies. These sort of formations would have regular troopers intermingling with commissars/commissar proxies with regularity.

I ask again to keep things on topic with the Commissar role please.

K... commissars... don't belong in regular squad as a member or its leader. Period. If you want to have one in your campaign, the only way to make it make any form of logical sense is to have the commissar in place of a sergeant, with the rest of the squad being his/her personal squad/bodyguards/henchmen. I can't imagine that being much fun for the other players, but that's ultimately about your players and you.

Could be part of the Terrax Guard , or a regiment based on similar principles. Not to mention the new Militarum Tempestus armies. These sort of formations would have regular troopers intermingling with commissars/commissar proxies with regularity.

I haven't the first clue about the new rules w/ respect to the Militarum. Can't bring myself to even consider it...

Terrax Guard are old school though - from 3rd edition codex. The concept has more or less been the same for over a decade now. ^^.

Ok... checked them out. I do recall these guys from an old codex. Might be 3ed. They all wear commissar outfits, without necessarily being commissars. I do see that they field an unusually high number of storm troopers and commissars... probably because they are drawn from a world with a schola progenium on it.

I should add that they are the only regiments of this type I've ever seen... and there's really not much about them out there. I suppose if you want to play as members of the Terrax Guard... you could have a whole squad of special snowflakes out there blowing stuff up.

Sounds boring to me.

I ask again to keep things on topic with the Commissar role please.

K... commissars... don't belong in regular squad as a member or its leader. Period. If you want to have one in your campaign, the only way to make it make any form of logical sense is to have the commissar in place of a sergeant, with the rest of the squad being his/her personal squad/bodyguards/henchmen. I can't imagine that being much fun for the other players, but that's ultimately about your players and you.

...before you even point to the couple instances in the fluff where a commissar was some kind of glorious commander of an entire regiment of special snowflake heroes... those are exceptions, not the rule.

Ive already stated at the start a number of reasons why a Commissar can be in squad Limiting your players is a little pointless. I would keep a core group of people of about 5 as all normal guardsmen, then if you have other people that are interested but can not attend regularly to be specialists. If you really invest your time into understanding the Commissar it's really very easy to see why they fit in. Cipas Cain after all tending to hang around with the same soldiers in his books from the Regiments he served with. Of course not all the time, but ive already addressed how that can be managed. Only the Narrow minded seek the path that is laid out before them. The open minded see all the paths and choose which one to take *bows*

Oh, I saw it. I just disagree with a lot of it. We can go into why, if you like.

Oh, I saw it. I just disagree with a lot of it. We can go into why, if you like.

Well I understand you point of view and disagree, you have made your argument clear, but seem unwilling to budge on views , as am I and others, and to further press the point would only cause anger and upset. Anger ruins joy. Steals the goodness of my mind. Forces my mouth to say terrible things. Overcoming anger brings peace of mind. Leads to a mind without regrets. If I overcome anger, I will be delightful and loved by everyone. Though I'm glad we have managed to bring things back on course to the Commissa r

Ok... checked them out. I do recall these guys from an old codex. Might be 3ed. They all wear commissar outfits, without necessarily being commissars. I do see that they field an unusually high number of storm troopers and commissars... probably because they are drawn from a world with a schola progenium on it.

I should add that they are the only regiments of this type I've ever seen... and there's really not much about them out there. I suppose if you want to play as members of the Terrax Guard... you could have a whole squad of special snowflakes out there blowing stuff up.

Sounds boring to me.

The Militarum Tempestus was more or less based on the concept the Terrax Guard developed. Stormtroopers and Commissars galore.

Might be boring to you, but that's a personal taste thing. Playing as a regiment such as the Terrax Guard would be pretty fun and change of pace - just as playing Krieg or Cadian drastically changes the playing environment. Other regiments exist that totally encompass the other 'snowflakes' fully.

Thinking in terms of the Enginseer, for example, fits in perfectly with a Skitari Auxia Detachment. The bread and butter of this setting is it's flexibility and variance. Every regiment is a special snowflake. Keep that in mind.

Ok... checked them out. I do recall these guys from an old codex. Might be 3ed. They all wear commissar outfits, without necessarily being commissars. I do see that they field an unusually high number of storm troopers and commissars... probably because they are drawn from a world with a schola progenium on it.

I should add that they are the only regiments of this type I've ever seen... and there's really not much about them out there. I suppose if you want to play as members of the Terrax Guard... you could have a whole squad of special snowflakes out there blowing stuff up.

Sounds boring to me.

The Militarum Tempestus was more or less based on the concept the Terrax Guard developed. Stormtroopers and Commissars galore.

Might be boring to you, but that's a personal taste thing. Playing as a regiment such as the Terrax Guard would be pretty fun and change of pace - just as playing Krieg or Cadian drastically changes the playing environment. Other regiments exist that totally encompass the other 'snowflakes' fully.

Thinking in terms of the Enginseer, for example, fits in perfectly with a Skitari Auxia Detachment. The bread and butter of this setting is it's flexibility and variance. Every regiment is a special snowflake. Keep that in mind.

I'll take your word for it with respect to the Militarum Tempestus. Again, I know very little about the concept. Imperial Guard, as it has always been, work just fine for me.

That said... a military force comprised mostly of storm troopers and commissars sounds... well... wrong. Those are supposed to be the elite, not the rank and file.

Stormtroopers are organised into Stormtrooper Regiments. Said regiments constitute the Militarum Tempestus. The Commissars largely form the officer corps above Lieutenant.

They deploy en masse via grav chute insertion or in rapid assault vehicles.

I play the Militarum Tempestus on the table. They work just fine and are perfectly fluffy.

Indeed, being current GW Codex material ultimately makes it more valid than any opinion posted on this forum.

They're the Elite regiments for the Elite tasks. Kind of like playing the Kasrkin which are similar in purpose.

And if everyone is special, then no one is, you know?