Howdy and or Hail!

UPDATED SEE BOTTOM OF POST!

So after playing the game system for a few weeks now I've noticed - like with other game systems that the mechanics aren't too forgiving when it comes to playing with Minis in a tile-based Environment; usually within 30 boxes/squares of each other...

(Table Top w/ Minis or Fantasy Grounds, Rolld20 Type of gaming environments W/ Tokens & Tiles)

Most of the values given like with D&D Missile Range Values is more closely aligned to Battlefields where teams or companies or combatants go at each other from vast distances - for 40k I image something akin to WW1 and the Trenches when applied to shooting guns and the values given for range.

Now Im not saying one cant shoot as far as whats been listed in Meters - but for my game this value is used as a NARRATIVE Time exclusive mechanic, meaning all the events happen in your imagination not on the table with Minis or in the virtual gaming table with tokens.

Once Initiative is rolled we enter into what I call Structure Time, aka Combat. From here-on we use the vaules listed on my revised Weapon Matrix which is set to Boxes/Squares.

The logic being once combatants know they are being shot at from those vast Battlefield distances it becomes a difficult prospect to single one out and have a "gun battle" - for me a "gun battle" more closely resembles what went down at the O.K. Corral rather than the WW1 Battlefield...

Now the logic can be argue both ways but for a GM who wants to utilize combat in Drinking Holes, Courts, Corridors, and the Like - these rules maybe the way for you to go!

+Also; I did weapon sizes and assigned both a Sleight of Hand & Scrutiny values therein – so you can either show weapons on your person or detect them on others! (woohoo)

As always comments, advice, or info is welcome.

Stay Gaming!

Morbid

Alright, I'm not exactly sure where you going here. You very quickly start throwing quite a number added terms around. But to address the points that I think you're putting up, I note the following:

1) It appears you've basically just scaled down the weapon ranges, am I right? The FNFF rules reference a lot of other things that don't appear in your chart or initial description.

2) I'm unclear what you mean by Gun Battle? OK Corral was a fight using guns as relatively close ranges with few individuals. WWI combats often involved hundreds of people charging across a 100 meters into hundreds of people with rifles and machine guns, all after dueling artillery. Both seem perfectly like something that could happen in Rogue Trader.

3) The difficulty one will always run into with miniatures and ranged weapons, is that your engagement ranges are limited by the size of your table. There is a reason why there's a running joke of "In the Far Future there is only Airsoft . (or paintball)" Using engagement ranges based on incident reports from the US Army and Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan, riflemen should be firing all the way across the board/table, and thats using weapons with recoil and gravity-fall, rather than lasrifles.

So, I know people who like miniatures for their RPGs, and can understand wanting to adjust the way the ranges are listed to make that easier to do. Just realize that once you use a weapon other than a Pistol, you're artificially shortening the effective range for a trained, experienced user. Which most characters qualify as - particularly Arch-Militants and House Troops.

UPDATED SEE BOTTOM OF POST

Ahhh ok no sweat

I did reduce the ranges as most "personal" conflicts in my campaign happen in the same room/chamber, accross the table, etc... Very Close Combat indeed!

I introduce herein two play styles

Storymode - where its all in your imagination (no minis, no tiles)

Challengemode - on the table with minis or in the virtual gaming table (think boxes/squares)

By what Ive introduced - most battles in my game are personal affairs that occur between the PCs and the opposition - low numbers of combatants - i.e. like the O.K. Corral...

If/when "mass" combat is needed or required then we revert back to the standard ranges in the book (i.e. meters)

Otherwise if a PC is walking around and decised to engage a target very far away - thats fine - use the meters - once that target is aware they are being shot at - then the Bonuses for Short Range (in Meters) and Point Blank Shooting (in Meters) are abandoned - as described - we would then be in "Challenge Mode"

You made my point for me when you said:

OK Corral was a fight using guns as relatively close ranges with few individuals. WWI combats often involved hundreds of people charging across a 100 meters into hundreds of people with rifles and machine guns, all after dueling artillery. Both seem perfectly like something that could happen in Rogue Trader.

Precisey

Skirmish = Boxed Ranges (shooting at people close enough for you to both see and smell)

Battle = Meter Ranges (shooting at lots of people they dont even see the face of)

All I'm doing HEREIN is limited how and when to apply the bonuses for Point Blank and Short Range ...

To complete the mechanics herein - we set a condition (a requirement) which makes getting the Point Blank bonus a bit more difficult than the standard default given by the Publisher/Designers.

That's why Combat Advantage was adopted as that defining "window" of opportunity if you like

The Friday Night Firefight verbiage was given to support this style of play - especially the FBI statistics LOL

D&D in outer space.

Yes, there is something inherently wrong with it.

Namely, dungeons.

And dragons.

Yeah yeah, I know. You can make the arguments. Space ship corridors and alien creatures. Still...

This is about weapon ranges. You want to change the setting to match your plastic and/or lead figures.

I've got a couple thousand miniatures. Never use 'em for sci-fi games. Not even the 6mm ones.

I would guess this isn't everyone's cup o tea, hopefully then you wont have a need for such optional house rules...

Stay Gaming!

A few questions people might have:

Did you use a fixed ratio to adjust these ranges, or were they ad-hoc? How big is a square (or hex) - 1 meter, 2 meters? Do you still use the same half/double/triple/quadruple range bands? If squares, how do you handle diagonals? Do you reduce movement as well? Do you use a 0-square or 1-square melee range? Reach melee weapons?

UPDATED SEE BOTTOM OF POST

The values I used are derived from math in the following manner...

2 to 5 = 3 point difference

5 to 9 = 4 point difference

9 to 14 = 5 point difference

Or another way to look at the values above is each "stage" (if you like) is +1 greater than the next block value.

Back to the "meter" units already assigned by default, from there I looked at each weapon's range value - got rid of the 0s - and "rounded" it off to the best value in "boxes/squares"...

For instance - the "Shotgun Pistol" in my rules set has a value of 2

Where originally it had a value of 10 meters take off the zero from 10 and you're left with 1 - rounded up for player's benefit we ened up with a "staged" value of 2...

A square of hex is artbitrary but if splitting hairs would represent a meter (sort of a paradox we got lol).

I still use the same movement so say a PC with half move of 3 - can then move 3 boxes on their turn as a half acton (if im using the proper game terminology).

As for diagonals - Ive allowed for the same movement rate as above - not reduced; though I sort of like that idea!

For melee you'd have to be in an adjacent box, with Minis - they bases would be touching each other, if a range value were to be assign stirckly to melee it would be 0.

Reach is handled the same way D&D did it; Reach 1 = I can hit a target with an empty 1 box/square between me and the target, Reach 2 would then let me hit a target with melee who is 2 boxes from the box/square I'm occupying.

On a Sidenote: I find that the game system has alot in common with D&D despite the change in mathematics used to resolve actions and events - instead of a d20 they use a d100, many of the same facets of play seem common enough (for example - both games have attacks of opportunity for leaving an occupided square ~ go figure) Another example would be the Wound system being very similiar in scope to older editions of D&D where you died w=once you hit -10 HPs under 0...

I'm sure there are others.

On that note - were'nt both the games created / published in and around the same era - late 70s to early 80s

Anyways hope this helps explain some of the house-rules herein, if you have a strong intrest I can draft up a PDF document or something for use in your campaign?

Stay Gaming All!

Morbid

So, about 1/10 of the range. You realize that means a character can now charge as far as the average pistol can fire as extreme range, right? That's going to really strongly skew the game in the favor of Melee combatants.

Rogue Trader isn't really any more similar to D&D than any major RPG. Of course, original D&D wasn't grid based either. Also, the first Dark Heresy was published in 2008.

UPDATED SEE BOTTOM OF POST

True Quicksilver - but melee goes both ways if the game is skewed towards that mechanic - in that special attack modes from various xenos and or mutants with the right appendages woudl be something to avoid as a PC. If melee is such a deadly proposition as it is/was in RL then who will want to try and stick their neck out and try and get close and personal with melee...

Just because Im the GM doesnt mean my NPCs dont have fear or good sense - PCs tend to apply such "wisdom" more so than the typical GM's NPCs & Monsters aka Baddies LOL

I would ask then - how would you remedy this issue with movement when applied to the reduction of ranges from what ive presented - with fairness being paramount.

I dont see a benefit outside of the special weaponry for PCs (chain sword, power weapons, etc) where I'd want to consistantly engage so close with the enemy - the beauty of the RPG game is its all a gamble, how long can that melee gamble hold out for the Power Gamer who thinks to exploit that shortcoming to these house-rules...

At the end of the day - I went thru the first 2 Scenarios for the system - albiet from some people I heard they were a bad set, I beg to differ (The Emperor's Bounty / Dark Frontier I think they are called); both adventures end with your PCs in a battle with the proverbial Big Baddie in close quarters - look at the Bridge Map + the Tower Top Map, both of which are in a scale more aligned to something found in D&D rather than the tabletop battlefields of the 40k miniatures game.

Accordingly if I ran the rules out of the book as is - then almost every battle results in a +10 to +30 bonus for all shooters due to the fact people fight each other in close spaces both in print and when devised by a GM.

Heck you even have PCs going thru the "corridors" I mention earlier in the post - possible fighting in said corridors; are these corridors 100 meters long or something - and if so how would such a space provide cover if its being used to traffic bodies and or suppies around a ship - they dont keep crates and barrels normally in the corridors of subs and aircraft carries - they are kept clear for operational / emergcy use (just alil applied logic herein)...

On top of that - ask any Cop and they can tell you how deadly even a pocket knife injury can be compared to some small arms fire - comparitively speaking you may be surprised by the damage of the lowly knife...

Good Stuff Quick - If you can help me work out perhaps a Movement solution so that I may preserve this house-ruleset that'd be great; I have to admit I did think about the movement issue herein while/when devising all this LOL

Stay a GAMING!

Morbid

Rogue Trader is also inherently a heroic system. (As is 40k in general, look at HQs) A lot of the presented talents and actions serve to reinforce this idea. If you're thinking of putting in a 'realistic' combat system, you're going to have a lot more to change than just ranges.

Still, I think the system actually replicates your FBI results: The joe-average ganger in the 40k RPG universe has a Ballistic Skill of 25-30. Untrained is what, half skill? Poor lighting is -30. That puts you at rolling under a -15 (ie impossible) until you get into Point blank (3 meters) range. Then you have to get a 15 or less to hit and get one that isn't concealed by cover or "dodged" by your targets erratic movement.

Our players, however, are expert shots (BS 40+) trained in their weapons, aiming and firing in reasonably well lit conditions. Yes, they're going to hit things. This is as much a condition of the characters exceptional skills and better shooting environment than necessary hollywood mechanics (though its some of the later as well)

Although Miniatures aren't my thing for RPGs. (I'm a wargamer, so I start thinking to wargamey if the minis come out) if you wanted to use them, I'd do the following:

1) Use 2 meter squares. You usually have about 40 squares in one direction, so 80 meters. Battles at longer ranges than that are Rifle or heavy weapon exchanges that should be handled narratively.

2) Diagonal movement costs 3 meters. People move cautiously in combat, so if you don't have the full movement to get into the next square, you can't move.

3) Use standard weapon ranges, calculated for squares if you desire, though keeping it in meters allows for easier diagonal shots. (For a laspistol, this would be 7 square shot range, 30 square normal range, 45 square long range) Define point blank as adjacent squares. Melee is considered to occur in the defender's square.

If you really want to be able to have more differentiation of ranges when on a battle-map scale, I'd consider adding graduations of short to point blank range, rather than dropping the full range of the weapons.

UPDATED SEE BOTTOM OF POST

- Revised the Weapon Sheet PDF herein - now it includes the Meter-based Ranges (aka the default range metric used in the book)

- Worked on Movement

Half Move = 1 Box (never provokes an attack of opportunity)

Full Move = 2 Boxes

Charge = 3+ Boxes (in a straight line or 3 boxes or more)

Run = 4 Boxes

Take your AGL Modifier as an awareness boost that allows for a surge of movement - this is handle as a Pool of Points.

You may expend these bonus move points during an Encounter (what I call Challenge Mode) during your turn when you move for any of the four modes of movement; Half, Full, Charge, or Run.

Either before or After all these points of bonus movement are expended; the character may regain their lost Surge points up to maximum equal to the AGL Modifier.

Now as a Full-Round Action you can replenish this Movement Pool by performing a Scrutiny Test to perceive whats going on around you, so that you can find that "moment" represented by this Surge Movement mechanic herein.

Thats the gist of it in essence, it is being play tested with veteran players, granted for us all the 40k Fantasy Flight game system is new experience!

Stay Gaming!

P.S. For those who would like a document for these houserules, just make a request and it shall be done!

Morbid

Funny enough I found this post today talking about FBI gun qualification exams...

I see that they "expect" agents to engage targets normally within 25 Yards, seems to support my case here ~ go figure

SEE Cyberpunk did some things right when they created the Friday Night Firefight section!

Nuff Said

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746625-Gun-Combat-System-Challenge-Try-out-the-FBI-Pistol-Qualification-Exam

OK after much play testing - I am abandoning the suggested House Rules above for whats to be presented BELOW...

Back to the GIST;

Online PNP RPG Play via Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds or the like...

To begin - battlemaps load "better" due to file size - this is just a basic fact of life of online play

For me - I design my battlemaps in a 50 x 50 square area where each box/square equates to 1 Meter.

With a Player or NPC at max default AG Bonus of say 4 = 16 Run Movement per Round
(thus my battlemaps could conceivably be crossed in as little as 3 to 4 rounds)

I am comfortable with this amount of movement - so that's checked off (no changes herein) DONE

Now onto DISTANCE and how I've adjusted it

So I've adopted the "Numenera" way of doing distance / range

This brings us back to Structured vs. Narrative time

- Structure Time is broken down into Rounds (see CORE Book)

- Narrative Time is spread out across longer stretches of time from Minutes to Hours aka Scenes (if you will)

In Structured Time all the Ranges are reduced down to Fundamental Increments no matter the weapon

In Narrative Time all the Ranges are kept vanilla as per the Core Rules

IMPORTANT: If a shooter fires past their Listed Range in STRUCTURE TIME - their BS is halved (yes Halved)
(like Rogue Trader mechanics rather than the -20 used in later publications)

Example:

Las Pistol 30m

Structured Time Distance

Shooter fires at target 5m away; +10% BS

Shooter fires at target 20m away; +/-0% BS

Shooter fires at target 30m away ; +/-0% BS ( the listed default RANGE for the weapon herein )
Shooter fires at target 35m away; +/-0% + (half) BS

Shooter fires at target 40m away; + -10% + (half) BS

Las Pistol 30m

Narrative Time Distance

Shooter fires at target 5m away; +10% BS

Shooter fires at target 20m away; +/-0% BS

Shooter fires at target 30m away ; +/-0% BS ( the listed default RANGE for the weapon herein )
Shooter fires at target 35m away; +/-0% BS

Shooter fires at target 40m away; - +/-0% BS
Shooter fires at target 60m away; -/ -10% BS - double range value CORE Rules
Shooter fires at target 90m away; -/ -30% BS - triple range value CORE Rules

And that's the essence of it - you switch between TWO modes of action to resolve Distances with limited Battlemap area via online play...

Finally COMBAT ADVANTAGE:

This is a concept adopted from none other than Dungeons & Dragons - which I will say has created extensive game mechanics for combat in a grid - years of development which has produced "some" good gaming concepts like Combat Advantage .

Combat Advantage lasts until the beginning of the Target's next turn - on a round per round basis (Gist)

When a defending Target is ...

Balancing
Blinded
Climbing
Dazed
Flanked by the attacker
Helpless
Prone
Restrained
Running
Squeezing
Stunned
Surprised
Unable to see the attacker
Unaware of you
Unconscious

And thats it in essence - no matter the weapon you are firing (20/20 vision - human limits, etc) - all shooting is handled equally in Structured time no matter the listed value of the weapon - the weapon reverts back to default distances when acting in Narrative mode.

FIN

Stay GAMING

Morbid