Does anyone want me to have a crack at these? Wouldn't normally consider them but I have worked on something for literally every other major race in the setting, and who knows, maybe one of you guys would like to play the Great Devourer for a change of pace or something.

Your views? If I get even a couple of people in support these will get in the pipeline.

Maybe players could play tyranid warriors that surround themselves with flocks of comrade gaunts that gain mutation points instead of exp points? Then they would develop by growing new organs, glands or ascending to a higher state of conscuousness as a higher prime species?

Their missions may be fighting other species as well as their own kin just because hive mind wants to test two competing genetic lines.

This reflects a hive mind promoting those mutations that make the hive better adapted and excuses the need for individualisation among players.

Id also implement sth like power system from Shadow of Mordor. Each player gains power points (or "ascension points") for certain achievements. They may even challenge each other and take away their ascencion points. At the certain threshold they may grow signs of great power and display them - red dots on a chitin, huge tusks or adfitional adrenaline gland.

And maybe, just maybe, there should be only one warrior prime that tells others what to do, a warrior alpha. Of course he may be challenged by other pcs.

Yeah I have a rough idea as to the how.

It's more whether or not people would actually, you know, want to play with such a scenario.

I enjoy writing these rulesets.

People have to enjoy it and people have to believe in a story. I think that my ideas solve the problem. They still can individualize their pc's and be a part of the swarm.

Just a few small things to keep in with the fluff, I don't mean to lore monger.

For the Necrons, you cannot really have them as playable characters. This is because Necrons do not advance. They can learn things, but for the most part, there is no real advancement. They are what they are due to their advanced programming of their minds in metallic bodies. Most Necrons don't even have the abilities to think. Immortals and Deathmarks have more advanced thought processes, but they do not really think in terms that a human might think. The closest are the Necron Lords, Crypteks, Overlords, and the like. That is to say all HQ units in the table top have the ability to think as we put it. The problem for having them as playable characters is that there is no way for anyone to really put themselves in the mindset of such beings as how they think is far beyond anyone. Its kind of hard to know how a being who has lived as long as they have and has their history would think. As for having them work with other non-necrons, its highly unlikely. The closest they ever get is in the 13th Black Crusade where they specifically targeted the Chaos Forces, but after Chaos was gone, they went back to murdering anyone who interfered with their plans, even if that included just being a human lolygagging at them.

As for Tyranids, the answer is no. Tyranids are specifically animals without access to the hive mind. Some are more aggressive yes, but they do not actually have the ability to think. Genestealers, Tygons, and Lictors are capable of mimicking thinking, but they are closer to thinking in the sense of Ridley Scott's Alien. Tyranids also in the table top with the allies system cannot work with anyone. The concept of non-tyranid allies isn't a playable option. Might a genestealer cult be playable, possibly. But any of the gaunts or more advanced tyranid xenomorphs, no.

Just my thoughts on the matter

I wouldn't dream of allowing a Necron or Tyranid game to overlap, or someone to play one of either in each, although the weird new allies matrix says that Necrons and Tau are cool and all.

I personally didn't think these two races were suitable for player characters, however, far be it from me to give people anything other than options. If people want them, I will happily have a crack at devising the mechanics for them.

Based on my many years of involvement both as a player and a DM in Dungeons and Dragons, I know that sometimes people just like having that occasional opportunity to play the monsters. Surprisingly more often than not. Their thought processes are completely alien, but it can be enjoyable trying to get into that mindset.

We'll see how this thread develops in terms of feedback.

As for Tyranids, the answer is no.

So what flaws have you found in my idea then? Im open to discussion.

My issue is this. First relates to the concept of a PC. A player character can make decisions, have a direction he or she wants to take the character, and has the ability to do so. The character also can make choices, decisions, have a personality, and help decide where the story goes. In essence the player has free will to do with what the player wishes to do with the character.

Tyranids do not have free will. They are bound to the directives of the Hive Mind. Even more so for Synapse Creatures. The only decisions any Tyranid can make are one based on feeding, growing, and how to destroy an enemy. You can't talk back to your superior, choose not to follow an order, you can't choose to be diplomatic or be stealthy. You can't even choose your gear. The Hive Mind makes you ahead of time for a specific purpose and you fulfill that purpose. You follow your orders without question. And once you finish destroying a planet you are absorbed back into the Hive Ships and no longer exist. Whatever mind you may have had before is now gone. There are no individuals in the Tyranid forces.

If you are wanting to play a game that in solely combat, then I could see your version working. But most games aren't designed with only wave after wave after wave of combat. Only Lictors and Genestealers act in any fashion that is close to what a PC might do, and Lictors are lone assassin creatures that in the fluff don't work with other Tyranids until the invasion begins.

Tyranids, like Necrons, don't really have choices to make. They follow directives of a higher being, and they cannot do so otherwise. Yes there are certain HQ units in the Tyranid army like the Doom of Malantai or the Swarmlord which have a larger range of adaptations and abilities, but those entities still are subjugated by the will of the Hive Mind which directs every one of their moves.

There is the other issue that is the amount of information every Tyranid Warrior has. That is all Tyranid Warriors are aware of the surroundings of other Synapse creatures, it what makes the armies of the Tyranids so dangerous. You have to treat the entire army as a single organism, because for all intensive purposes of fighting it, it is. A Warrior Prime who is thousands of feet underground moving to flank an enemy from underground tunnels is constantly aware of the sky battle and the ground battle occurring and is able to make small changes to its plans to adapt with all the information available.

Yours is a cool idea, the issue is that it involves individuality which doesn't exist among the Tyranids. So my suggestion if you want to have a game with Tyranid PCs is to do a Genestealer cult. Because that works much better with the fluff and can work with testing out new kinds of genes to absorb into the hive fleet. It also can involve more social, covert, and other such decisions.

I recognize that Players often want to play monstrous races. I myself have done so in D&D and Pathfinder. But the issue with doing that in Warhammer 40k is that the perspectives of what xenos think is so alien to that of the human mind. In fact most of the fluff that is available to us is from a human perspective of what an alien does. I've been playing the table top since Rogue Trader, and currently play a Dark Eldar/Eldar army and a Necron army. And as much as I love both races, I recognize that there is no way I could really come close to understanding the motivations of any of the Necron Lords. Take Trazyn the Infinite. There's no way, no matter how much I love him as my HQ choice, that I could adequately portray him as a character. How do you play a nigh immortal insane machine who catalogs historical events with stasis chambers and most of the genuine articles or people from that event? How does one play a Cryptek who can alter history with science? Don't even get me started on the Haemonculus. The kind of madness required to adequately play one of those in all of their glory is not something I have, or any human could have.

Tyranids do not have free will. They are bound to the directives of the Hive Mind. Even more so for Synapse Creatures. The only decisions any Tyranid can make are one based on feeding, growing, and how to destroy an enemy. You can't talk back to your superior, choose not to follow an order, you can't choose to be diplomatic or be stealthy. You can't even choose your gear. The Hive Mind makes you ahead of time for a specific purpose and you fulfill that purpose. You follow your orders without question. And once you finish destroying a planet you are absorbed back into the Hive Ships and no longer exist. Whatever mind you may have had before is now gone. There are no individuals in the Tyranid forces.

I've got more realistic approach to Tyranids. For me Hive Mind is some kind of a central ecological engineer. It sends armies to fight, but first it has to allow them to specificate to certain tasks. In reality it works this way: you take a sample organism and put it in a certain environment that'll hopefully test it's abilities. If it succeeds you allow it to develop and prepare another environment with another test to specificate it further. You don't care how will it succeed. There are many approaches to single task, so players may choose to be stealthy, fly over or dig under the enemy. Diplomacy would also be the case if we count genestealer cult.

I think it can work the same way with nids.

Oh and I think that idea of one Hive Mind controlling every single move of every worm from the whole swarm has major flaw: this way a Hive Mind cannot invent anything. And if there is anything sure about the Tyranids it's their ability to adapt to a new environment (so learn about it and produce a gene pool that allows to live in it for long enough to consume it).

Could just bullocks that the players' free will is just the actions of the Hive Mind unless they're feral Nids. Nomnomnomnom.

It would be unorthadox, granted, but Tyranids dont always abide by the nearest hive. Hives are capable of fighting one another after all, and themselves. Then there are some autonomous Nids being feral or the Genestealers of Ymgarl.

But these are just ideas. It's not for me to write people's campaigns for them, just I like to provide rules mods which are enablers.

Doesn't look, however, like there's much in the way of demand, which is to be expected.

I'll keep an eye out. But I don't expect much.

The problem with your bio-engineering theory can be found in the actions and the way in which the Tyranid forces go about their business. First it has become clear that each individual fleet (Dagon, Leviathan... etc) seems to have a different mind of sorts in charge of it. This could be a separate Hive Mind or the Norn Queen making influences upon the fight. That is a more logical explanation of why the hive fleets fight: For Resources to build their own fleets. All Tyranids are pure biomass so you don't need to worry about devouring a planet, you just get the raw resources.

The bio-engineering theory you propose would be sound, except we have seen from the Tyranid forces that the variation on the units is very controlled. Each unit has a select number of upgrades per unit, sometimes multiples of them. But there is no deviation from those between hive fleets. They are standardized. The only thing that seems to differ between hive fleets is the access to certain units. Hive Fleet Kraken had a number of aquatic Tyranids as well as a larger number of venomthropes than other hive fleets. Hive fleet Dagon has their own special Hive Tyrant. If it was really a bio-engineer it would realize that swarming over a planet like a forge world with termagaunts and hormagaunts wouldn't really do much and use a different tactic. But in the situations where it has done that, every fleet uses the flood mass of troops over the planet, when that fails it uses other units. If it was a bio-engineer it might think to give more plasma type weaponry to its Warriors or gaunts, but it never does. Tyranids only have 3 AP 2 weapons on the tabletop and none of them are upgrades available to be put on any unit. They're only available on Old One Eye, Haruspex, Carnifex, and Exocrine. The first being an HQ, 1 Elite, and 2 Heavy Supports. And you're not going to find any hive fleet that mass produces those. Its not efficient.

Yes the Tyranids evolve and adapt to their surroundings with the new biomass they ingest and use to augment themselves. But they aren't the Zerg from Starcraft II. There's no abathur who ponders genetic sequences to find the right one for the right situation through experimentation. If there was when they find themselves assaulting an armoured core of Space Marine or Imperial Guard they would augment their troops with anti-tank weapons like any other Army can. Or evolve a melta weapon, but they don't.

First it has become clear that each individual fleet (Dagon, Leviathan... etc) seems to have a different mind of sorts in charge of it.

This fits my theory completely. Different approaches are consequence of different environments that hive fleet meet on their way and adapt to. I've never said that there is only one hive mind above them all.

That is a more logical explanation of why the hive fleets fight: For Resources to build their own fleets.

My theory doesn't explain why tyranids fight, so I can't imagine how this can be relevant here.

The bio-engineering theory you propose would be sound, except we have seen from the Tyranid forces that the variation on the units is very controlled. Each unit has a select number of upgrades per unit, sometimes multiples of them. But there is no deviation from those between hive fleets. They are standardized. The only thing that seems to differ between hive fleets is the access to certain units.

They are standardized on a phenotypical level. Birds and some bugs are also "standardized" - they have wings. As well as crocodiles and tigers - both species have teeth. If some tyranid organs or skeletons are developed as closely to perfection as it is possible, they can become a standard, such as mitochondrium became a standard in cells of all eucariota. Those traits can even evolve separately, such as wings in birds and bugs.

If it was really a bio-engineer it would realize that swarming over a planet like a forge world with termagaunts and hormagaunts wouldn't really do much and use a different tactic. But in the situations where it has done that, every fleet uses the flood mass of troops over the planet, when that fails it uses other units.

Those sentences are mutualy contrary. So the bio-engineer does what then, A or not-A?

If it was a bio-engineer it might think to give more plasma type weaponry to its Warriors or gaunts, but it never does. Tyranids only have 3 AP 2 weapons on the tabletop and none of them are upgrades available to be put on any unit. They're only available on Old One Eye, Haruspex, Carnifex, and Exocrine. The first being an HQ, 1 Elite, and 2 Heavy Supports. And you're not going to find any hive fleet that mass produces those. Its not efficient.

...so what? It's obvious that energies of metabollic reactions that power tyranid weaponry are way lower than electrical power those of humans. Thats why only the biggest and the toughest can use those weapons - only they have the appropriate organs to create such energy.

Yes the Tyranids evolve and adapt to their surroundings with the new biomass they ingest and use to augment themselves. But they aren't the Zerg from Starcraft II. There's no abathur who ponders genetic sequences to find the right one for the right situation through experimentation. If there was when they find themselves assaulting an armoured core of Space Marine or Imperial Guard they would augment their troops with anti-tank weapons like any other Army can. Or evolve a melta weapon, but they don't.

As I've written the "Abathur" could have calculated the costs and decided that loosing hundreds of gaunts is cheaper than fielding and risking loss of bigger tyranid. It could also use that encounter to test new mutation among hormagaunts, be it the organella that allows them to perform better in a cold environment, or methabollic chain that allows them to breath sulfur in the air.

Does anyone want me to have a crack at these? Wouldn't normally consider them but I have worked on something for literally every other major race in the setting, and who knows, maybe one of you guys would like to play the Great Devourer for a change of pace or something.

Your views? If I get even a couple of people in support these will get in the pipeline.

No...

The stats exist in the enemy section, just use those, but seriously neither of them even think like a humanoid their personality is so alien it just doesn't make sense to us. Not to mention that both races are controlled by other things.

Someone has already done this for Rogue Trader...

http://lodgeblackmangames.jigsy.com/rogue-trader-guides

and also has Eldar and a number of others. They are quite good, the ones I have read through anyway. Very nice production values.

In addition, Rogue Trader (Into the Storm supplement) gives rules for creating Ork and Kroot player characters, and the Dark Eldar adventure (cant remember the name of it at the moment), also has rules for creating Dark Eldar PCs, I think.

Yes I've seen those. And used the official Rogue Trader material to create full racial conversions for Only War.

Hence contemplating completing the set. Little late lol.

Oh right, I just added that because he has Necron and Tyranid guides up already.

I get that and I appreciate the thought. Seen them myself already.

Seems the community isn't really interested in seeing the projects go ahead though, hence letting it lie.

Ahhh, well, I guess there are plenty others you could turn your hand too. Personally, I still want either fan made or official rules for the Skitarii in all their various forms... The Lathe Worlds gives some ideas, but doesnt make them particularly easy to convert.

I'm happy to take on an assortment of projects. If there's something you'd like to see developed, feel free to pitch me some ideas to set the ball rolling and I'll have a look at it.

I am clearly in the minority but I would be interested in seeing what rules you can come up with for Tyranids.

I have a few ideas of how to make it work which I won't bother posting here because I don't want to waste time arguing with the naysayers, it's my game and I can make it work for me.

By the way where would I find your other Only War conversations they look exceedingly interesting?

They're in the House Rules section, or I believe you can look through my profile to see what topics I've posted. If you notice any errors in them (as I sometimes seem to when I re-read them), just pop me a message and I'll clarify and amend as necessary.

No problems, I did find them after posting the question, very impressive work and a big well done!

I may even codify the ones I am interested in, in a Word or PDF format as long as you don't mind?

I could see the potential for both of these. Newcrons think but do not change or adapt, so they'd be an odd game to play. The game's themes would have to revolve around reliving what you've already done, over and over, again and again. To that end, you might have players plot out their character advancement completely in advance. Every single upgrade slotted in a certain order and bought as soon as you have the XP for it, without any variation at all. It'd be a good way to reinforce how the newcrons do. You'd also have to be playing as higher-level necrons, so we'd be looking at Black Crusade/Deathwatch power levels rather than Only War. An interesting idea, but it doesn't really sound like an Only War hack.

'Nids have the reverse problem. They change and adapt, but they do not think. Making 'nids playable would require writing up Hive Fleet Player Character, whose schtick is having evolved the ability for synchronized thought, that is, thought which is independent but utterly single-minded in its devotion to the hive. Characters would have no backstory and no variation amongst motivations, so the opportunity for roleplay would be pretty scant.