Hi All,

Are there any guidelines for when to Boost, when to Upgrade, when to Set-back and when to Upgrade?

A large number of the talents in all the books indicate to remove Setback Dice, downgrade difficulty, etc, but I can't really find anything to give a guideline. By way of example, I am currently working on my own Sector's Gazeteer. Some of the routes will give setback dice, and when travelling in hyperspace through a system, you'll get another. Based on some of the routes, a check could get up to 5 setback dice. Is this too much, or should it be a case that after you get to a certain point, the check should be upgraded?

Conversely, for Imperial Supply lines (i.e. between Imperial bases - but only if you have the astrogation data codes), the skill dice are upgraded, whilst a Sector Ranger Database (between Sector Ranger Bases), +1 Boost Dice is applied.

Now obviously, this is my own invention to add something extra to the campaign, but when I start playing, I'm sure it will be a case of applying setback and boost dice to regular skill checks, and so I want to get a grasp of benchmarks people might suggest or any handy "rules" people apply.

Thanks in advance.

Hey Hooly!

There is a sidebar on page 21 of the EotE Core Rulebook ("Increase, Upgrade, or Add?") that should go a long way towards answering your concerns. Note especially the part about upgraded dice not being arbitrarily applied by the GM.

Do you need more specific information than that?

OK, well that spells it out nicely regarding "upgrading". Basically my question stems from how many Set-back Dice can be added. See this thread for the basis of my question.

I decided to "break the rules" for astrogating a path through a system with a gas cloud, black hole or supernova. Mainly because "Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"

I also added Setback dice for each "obstacle" (system) you travelled through (lets forget about space being 3D for the sake of this exercise ), and ended up with some being 5 or more setback dice. I also added Boost dice for more well travelled routes. Difficulty was also based on the type of system travelled to (i.e. People travel to Imperial/Stellar and Standard Class starport all the time, but Limited Service Starports, Landing Fields and planets with no starports at all, would be travelled to less.)

So the basic question is "How Many Set-back Dice are too much and should be considered being an Upgrade instead?" Half the question is answered in the side bar (i.e. RAW says don't upgrade unless a PC/NPC ability says to do otherwise). But as for how many Set-back dice are considered "over the top", if probably my main dilemma.

**** me wanting to invent balanced rules to make this game more fun for the PCs.

You should consider adding set back dice to most rolls. Are they in a hurry? setback. Are the conditions less than optimal like its dark or distractions etc. Setback. Know the characters talents. If they have one that removes setbacks from a roll add setback so the talent gets a use.

There isn't really such a thing as "too many" setbacks. I would generally tend to add 1 setback for every complication affecting the skill check. But I wouldn't ever translate setbacks into challenge dice. It shouldn't really work that way. Difficulty upgrades come from trained opponents and Destiny Points. The Devs have also suggested numerous times that, if a base difficulty of 5 or higher is being increased, you could consider upgrading instead of increasing. But setbacks should remain setbacks.

I have never had my players roll a check with more than 4 setback dice...and that was against a zakkeg with armored plating 3 and they were on their back in the mud most rolls (in my experience) tend to cap out at 2, especially non-combat rolls.

Setback dice work out to be +1/3 failure, +1/3 threat each. Normal difficulty dice work out to be +1/2 failure, +3/4 threat each. So it takes 2 setback dice to add more challenge to the test than increasing the difficulty by one.

As far as a limit, in my most recent campaign, the DM regularly added up to 6 or 8 setbacks to each roll (I tend to think that's rather high, but he's the DM).

From my perspective, I'd say 1-4 setbacks would be enough to handle 95% of the rolls.

These comments are very helpful. Thanks guys. What's the additional break down of the Challenge Dice?

These comments are very helpful. Thanks guys. What's the additional break down of the Challenge Dice?

For all probabilities, go here: http://game2.com/eote/?montecarlo=100000

Easy to use dice calculator that can give you percentile breakdown on all symbols.

Keep in mind that a Challenge die, on top of being better than a Difficulty die and roughly equivalent to Difficulty + Setback, contains the unique and un-cancel-able Despair symbol. So introducing one challenge die into the mix gives you the chance to roll a despair, which no amount of Setback can do.

Understood. And thanks for the link.

So the basic question is "How Many Set-back Dice are too much and should be considered being an Upgrade instead?" Half the question is answered in the side bar (i.e. RAW says don't upgrade unless a PC/NPC ability says to do otherwise). But as for how many Set-back dice are considered "over the top", if probably my main dilemma.

You want to avoid the "fist full of dice" phenomenon. So, however many dice you think would be too much, that’s where you upgrade. Is it an upgrade for every pair of setback dice? Or maybe an upgrade for every three setback dice? Who knows — it’s your game.

I want the players to think that NOTHING is impossible...just highly dangerous and improbable...

So the basic question is "How Many Set-back Dice are too much and should be considered being an Upgrade instead?" Half the question is answered in the side bar (i.e. RAW says don't upgrade unless a PC/NPC ability says to do otherwise). But as for how many Set-back dice are considered "over the top", if probably my main dilemma.

You want to avoid the "fist full of dice" phenomenon. So, however many dice you think would be too much, that’s where you upgrade. Is it an upgrade for every pair of setback dice? Or maybe an upgrade for every three setback dice? Who knows — it’s your game.

I wouldn't avoid a "fistful of dice" at the cost of an Upgrade. Most rolls have 2 or fewer setbacks, and I think that's okay. It imbalances the game, throwing a possible Despair into the mix where none is warranted. If you have the one-off dice pool with 5 setback, it's not gonna grind your game to a halt. Just roll 'em and move on.