Awings are anything but 'short ranged'

They have (in the mythos) advanced avionics and are used for recce and scouting.

One A wing tactic is to hyperdrive into an imperial area, blaze through it at top speed scanning everything in the area and jumping out again before being engaged.

' ' ' F9 F9 F9. Profit.

[...]

Also, my opinion is that the TIE fighters panels are actually ratiators and emit the excess heat from the power plant they have and from blaster firing.

I'm not speaking for cannon but I've always thought that made perfect sense. When I saw the first three movies I just assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that engine and blaster heat must be a huge problem.

Just consider. The panels on all of the TIE fighters (especially for their size), the X and B wings open up creating more surface area to radiate heat. The back end of the Y and A wing engines are completely open and the open space in the reactor core of even the Death Star II.

Don't know but I've always thought that regardless of the direction it has gone that somewhere in the artist's minds this may have been a thought for them.

But that's just me

[Edited for spellin']

I have a very hard time believing those are solar panels. In many many deep space battles you're nowhere near a star, so you wouldn't get any power from them. Not only that, but they're oriented in such a way that only one of them would ever be exposed to a star and even then the power you would get would vary as you're dogfighting. Radiator panels make much more sense to shed all of the heat being generated onboard the craft. Plus having everything be essentially battery powered falls more in line with them being short range carrier-based fighters. Is there anything from lore that states they are solar panels?

I have a very hard time believing those are solar panels. In many many deep space battles you're nowhere near a star, so you wouldn't get any power from them. Not only that, but they're oriented in such a way that only one of them would ever be exposed to a star and even then the power you would get would vary as you're dogfighting. Radiator panels make much more sense to shed all of the heat being generated onboard the craft. Plus having everything be essentially battery powered falls more in line with them being short range carrier-based fighters. Is there anything from lore that states they are solar panels?

In my 2nd large post I answered your question. You wouldnt want them to be radiator, it would makem easier to lock on too. They also are not primarly battery powered.

Yeah when you hear the term 'Short Range' applied to things like TIE fighters, its not about the ships actual range, its more the operating standards.

Notice that TIE Pilots wear full life sealed suits. Base TIEs dont have Life Support. The pilots oxygen supply is limited. They dont have hyperdrives, they dont have supplies etc. Its the way the Empire works. They enforce discipline through a need to rely on the mothership. Theres even points that, barring a few examples (usually EU) that TIEs cant even land without the use of a carrier vessel. The ship could travel far further than they do, but without a Hyperdrive it would take them way too long to get anywhere and there would be a Skeleton at the controls.

Most Rebel ships were fully functional long range vessels. Luke basically adopts his X-Wing as his transport of choice and only the very largest Rebel ships had anything resembling a landing bay so anytime an escort was needed for a Transport, Corvette or a Nebulon Frigate, those ships had to be independant and not rely on landing.

Well I more-so asked where that information can be found. Is there a source for that from a book or something? Is there also some source that says they're not primarily battery powered? I know we're talking about star wars and there is more hand waving than not going on but you're not exactly collecting a whole lot of energy from those solar panels in a lot of situations so I would say that, realistically speaking, you'd either need some big batteries or be near a star the whole time. Again, I know this is SciFi and a lot of this stuff gets hand-waved away which is totally cool, but in terms of rationalizing solar panels I'm having a hard time.

If you want, you can just head cannon it that way.

I imagine that the S-foils have delicate ratiator surfaces on the inside and they disperse the heat of the laser cannons. And when they are closed they go faster for some reason.

Also, I am making a campaign based on exploration, exploitation, confrontation, and extermination. It will basicly be a 4x strategy game, with Microsoft spreadsheets doing all the calculations.

It will be based in the unknown regions of space (the west half of the galaxy), and a tiny slice of that will be the game board.

There are no established hyperspace routes, so craft won't be jumping from one half of the galaxy to the other.

So I will need to make up and flub some ranges, and I want to at least get the order correct (like y-wings have more fuel than a-wings) so I was trying to get the communities input on this.

According to the 'Incredible Cross Sections' book, both interpretations are correct. The outsides of the panels have 'solar energy collectors', whereas the insides have a 'heat exchange matrix'.

It seems dumb to me to try to radiate heat in space, given that there's nothing to radiate it through. Besides, heat = energy. Why waste it? I'm guessing the heat exchange matrix is there to channel heat inward as energy, rather than outward.

I imagine that the solar energy collectors are much more efficient than our present-day collectors, and that TIE fighters tend to operate in areas that are close enough to stars to gather energy. When they're operating outside of solar range, they do have a fuel tank, so I'm guessing a TIE fighter is a hybrid.

I imagine the TIE fighter's range may also be determined by the size of its oxygen tank, but I don't know enough about gas compression and human oxygen consumption to give a sense of that.

Because heat = useless energy unless you have a whole steam turbine power system to put it through. And radiation by definition is heat just escaping off of a surface. Heat transfer through air and other mediums is convection. There's nothing onboard a tie fighter that you could use the heat for. If you don't radiate it your craft melts. And the fuel tank contains some inert gas that's used as propellant in an ion engine, which requires electrical power to function. So you do need a constant source of electrical power. But mainly, heat is the enemy of any electrical system in space.

Aha, so a car radiator is actually a ... convectioner?

The next thing you're going to tell me is that the sound that TIEs make is the heat hitting the microphone that George Lucas suspended in space as the TIEs flew by?

At any rate, I do think there's a sort of 'Because-Star-Wars' answer to the technical/physics/engineering discussions here. While I'm happy to nerd it out, and learn RW things, there's only so far you can go that route before Star Wars starts to lose its magic the more you fail to suspend disbelief.

Aha, so a car radiator is actually a ... convectioner?

The next thing you're going to tell me is that the sound that TIEs make is the heat hitting the microphone that George Lucas suspended in space as the TIEs flew by?

At any rate, I do think there's a sort of 'Because-Star-Wars' answer to the technical/physics/engineering discussions here. While I'm happy to nerd it out, and learn RW things, there's only so far you can go that route before Star Wars starts to lose its magic the more you fail to suspend disbelief.

That's a common, common issue with science fantasy/space opera.

Aha, so a car radiator is actually a ... convectioner?

The next thing you're going to tell me is that the sound that TIEs make is the heat hitting the microphone that George Lucas suspended in space as the TIEs flew by?

At any rate, I do think there's a sort of 'Because-Star-Wars' answer to the technical/physics/engineering discussions here. While I'm happy to nerd it out, and learn RW things, there's only so far you can go that route before Star Wars starts to lose its magic the more you fail to suspend disbelief.

Yes. It is. It radiates heat as well like everything in the universe but the vast majority of cooling is done through convection. That's why there are fans in front of radiators in cars. They blow air from outside the car through the radiator to cool it by convection. In space you don't have air or any other matter to convectively cool things so your only (and really terrible) option is to radiate heat away. In thermodynamics there are three methods of heat transfer. They are, in order of generally least to most effective, radiation, conduction, and convection.

And no. The sounds are entirely fictional. And yes, I realize that about the magic of it. But when you start to talk about the specific purposes and design of spaceships you start to get away from the magic and real-world physics creeps in there.

At any rate, I do think there's a sort of 'Because-Star-Wars' answer to the technical/physics/engineering discussions here. While I'm happy to nerd it out, and learn RW things, there's only so far you can go that route before Star Wars starts to lose its magic the more you fail to suspend disbelief.

That's a common, common issue with science fantasy/space opera.

Indeed, and as someone who has to stifle his own comments which sometimes start with the world 'Actually,...', I think it's worthwhile to note that doing so is entirely counterproductive.

At the same time, like the OP, I like to have a sense of the possible/impossible in the game universe so as to generate broader tactical/strategic thinking and simulation. That's different than telling a story because the objectives are different.

So, to get back to the OP's intentions, I don't think there's much of a point in discussing questions of range at the non-hyperspace level. For all intents and purposes, non-hyperspace ships can go anywhere they want within systems, and can't go anywhere they want between systems without a hyperspace-capable mothership to take them there. Hyperspace capable ships are limited by the degree to which they can calculate a long jump and the degree to which they can remain in their position for long terms.

I imagine that hyperspace-capable fighters have a short range because it's rather hard to stay seated for hours and still be physically capable of engaging in a starfighter battle when you come out of hyperspace. I'll say that your interpretation of this hinges on your sense of galactic scale. That is something to which I've devoted a lot of time and energy, but it is something that comes down to your personal preferences.

I've never really believed either the solar panel or radiator theories. If nothing else, radiators that huge would produce an unmistakable sensor signature, not a desirable quality in a space fighter.

My belief is that the wings on a TIE are to aid manoeuvrability. When an object is being turned or spun in three dimensions, it needs torque - essentially a force that only applies to one side of the object. This effect is why a big wrench is more effective than a small one. The further the force is from the centre of mass of the object, the smaller the force that is required to turn it - or the faster it will turn.

By having large wings on either side with some method of exerting force (gravity projectors?) the TIE fighter gains excellent turning ability - hence its dial with tight turns and a barrel roll.

For your reference here is the wikipedia entry on thermal radiation: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#/search

And the wikipedia article on heat transfer in general: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer

I have a very hard time believing those are solar panels. In many many deep space battles you're nowhere near a star, so you wouldn't get any power from them. Not only that, but they're oriented in such a way that only one of them would ever be exposed to a star and even then the power you would get would vary as you're dogfighting. Radiator panels make much more sense to shed all of the heat being generated onboard the craft. Plus having everything be essentially battery powered falls more in line with them being short range carrier-based fighters. Is there anything from lore that states they are solar panels?

I doubt there are many deep space battles. Most of Star Wars is concentrated around inhabited systems: otherwise what are you fighting over?

I have a very hard time believing those are solar panels. In many many deep space battles you're nowhere near a star, so you wouldn't get any power from them. Not only that, but they're oriented in such a way that only one of them would ever be exposed to a star and even then the power you would get would vary as you're dogfighting. Radiator panels make much more sense to shed all of the heat being generated onboard the craft. Plus having everything be essentially battery powered falls more in line with them being short range carrier-based fighters. Is there anything from lore that states they are solar panels?

I doubt there are many deep space battles. Most of Star Wars is concentrated around inhabited systems: otherwise what are you fighting over?

Deep space outposts/research and manufacturing areas. You are correct in that most of star wars and most battles are in system, but staging areas, research outposts, hidden bases are often in the deep black.

Trust me, when doing a campaign using D20 and XWM I researched the heck out of hyperspace etc and if you can even hyper into the deep black. You can.

I have a very hard time believing those are solar panels. In many many deep space battles you're nowhere near a star, so you wouldn't get any power from them. Not only that, but they're oriented in such a way that only one of them would ever be exposed to a star and even then the power you would get would vary as you're dogfighting. Radiator panels make much more sense to shed all of the heat being generated onboard the craft. Plus having everything be essentially battery powered falls more in line with them being short range carrier-based fighters. Is there anything from lore that states they are solar panels?

I doubt there are many deep space battles. Most of Star Wars is concentrated around inhabited systems: otherwise what are you fighting over?

Yes, exactly.

Sure, there may be some reason to be there - e.g. to gather a fleet together in order to do a strike without being detected. At that point, the purpose for being there is not so much to avoid the solar energy-dependent TIE fighters as it is to maintain secrecy.

The fact that they are solar panels is so well established that if you're going to question it, you're basically just creating an alternative understanding of the SWU. Feel free to do so, but it ain't my Star Wars.

I've never really believed either the solar panel or radiator theories. If nothing else, radiators that huge would produce an unmistakable sensor signature, not a desirable quality in a space fighter.

My belief is that the wings on a TIE are to aid manoeuvrability. When an object is being turned or spun in three dimensions, it needs torque - essentially a force that only applies to one side of the object. This effect is why a big wrench is more effective than a small one. The further the force is from the centre of mass of the object, the smaller the force that is required to turn it - or the faster it will turn.

By having large wings on either side with some method of exerting force (gravity projectors?) the TIE fighter gains excellent turning ability - hence its dial with tight turns and a barrel roll.

I'd be a lot more accepting to the idea of adding maneuverability through some kind of force generation on those panels. But I'd also add that the empire's idea was always "overwhelm with numbers" rather than creating an expensive, elite dogfighting spacecraft. Also when it comes to sensor recognition those things would have a trail of ions or electrons spewing out the back that'd be obvious on any kind of infrared or electromagnetic seeker.

Also I'd add that even in the expansive star wars universe - not all of space is explored, only about 25% if I recall, so now you have recorded refuel stations etc also. Just like 40K, if you can justify it why not?

I have a very hard time believing those are solar panels. In many many deep space battles you're nowhere near a star, so you wouldn't get any power from them. Not only that, but they're oriented in such a way that only one of them would ever be exposed to a star and even then the power you would get would vary as you're dogfighting. Radiator panels make much more sense to shed all of the heat being generated onboard the craft. Plus having everything be essentially battery powered falls more in line with them being short range carrier-based fighters. Is there anything from lore that states they are solar panels?

I doubt there are many deep space battles. Most of Star Wars is concentrated around inhabited systems: otherwise what are you fighting over?

Yes, exactly.

Sure, there may be some reason to be there - e.g. to gather a fleet together in order to do a strike without being detected. At that point, the purpose for being there is not so much to avoid the solar energy-dependent TIE fighters as it is to maintain secrecy.

The fact that they are solar panels is so well established that if you're going to question it, you're basically just creating an alternative understanding of the SWU. Feel free to do so, but it ain't my Star Wars.

That's why I'm asking for a source, which that book mentioned above seems to have clarified. I'd like to know if it's mentioned anywhere else too.

Deep space outposts/research and manufacturing areas. You are correct in that most of star wars and most battles are in system, but staging areas, research outposts, hidden bases are often in the deep black.

Trust me, when doing a campaign using D20 and XWM I researched the heck out of hyperspace etc and if you can even hyper into the deep black. You can.

That's all fair enough - and that explains ships that don't rely on solar energy - such as rebel ships as well as the imperial craft like the Lambda, the Skipray Blastboat, and the Assault-Gunboat-Whatevers from TIE Fighter.

I'd be a lot more accepting to the idea of adding maneuverability through some kind of force generation on those panels. But I'd also add that the empire's idea was always "overwhelm with numbers" rather than creating an expensive, elite dogfighting spacecraft. Also when it comes to sensor recognition those things would have a trail of ions or electrons spewing out the back that'd be obvious on any kind of infrared or electromagnetic seeker.

This is a good point in terms of Imperial military doctrine.

In our day and age, we have adapted military doctrines towards essentially guerilla warfare - camouflage, hiding, sniping, not being seen, etc. For much of history, an army was intended to be seen - and to intimidate more than to actually perform fighting. That's why the British redcoats wore red coats with tall hats: in order to be seen.

I'd say the same is true of stormtroopers. By the time if the galactic civil war, they were a symbolic terror-inducing force rather than one geared towards combat effectiveness.

Getting back to the naval aspect, why worry about a heat signature? However, the Phantom, which is most definitely geared towards stealth (one of the reasons it doesn't fit my head canon for the Empire), but still has those panels.

I'd be a lot more accepting to the idea of adding maneuverability through some kind of force generation on those panels. But I'd also add that the empire's idea was always "overwhelm with numbers" rather than creating an expensive, elite dogfighting spacecraft. Also when it comes to sensor recognition those things would have a trail of ions or electrons spewing out the back that'd be obvious on any kind of infrared or electromagnetic seeker.

This is a good point in terms of Imperial military doctrine.

In our day and age, we have adapted military doctrines towards essentially guerilla warfare - camouflage, hiding, sniping, not being seen, etc. For much of history, an army was intended to be seen - and to intimidate more than to actually perform fighting. That's why the British redcoats wore red coats with tall hats: in order to be seen.

I'd say the same is true of stormtroopers. By the time if the galactic civil war, they were a symbolic terror-inducing force rather than one geared towards combat effectiveness.

Getting back to the naval aspect, why worry about a heat signature? However, the Phantom, which is most definitely geared towards stealth (one of the reasons it doesn't fit my head canon for the Empire), but still has those panels.

Star Wars tends to fudge how sensors work, but - sure - I can see how heat radiation would be a big part of that.

For my part, I think the best approach to understanding Star Wars is to try to make all the canon (and near-canon) sources fit together as logically as possible, and then try to minimize those aspects that just can't logically fit.