A New(bies) Hope - A first attempt at List Building

or

"The PhantomanaTIE" development thread

So... I've been looking for a list for a long time. I've read abut build after build, I've read about TIE's and Z-95's, I've read about Falcons and Firesprays. I've thought about buying a fourth Bomber, and stared longingly at the X-Wings sitting on the shelves at my local gaming store. I've copied down list after list. I've poured over the squads run at Nationals and at the recent Worlds. I've video after video on YouTube. Well last week I actually played my first game against someone other than my seven year old daughter and thoroughly enjoyed it (despite parking Chewie on an asteriod for two turns!). Since I may well have regular games line up from now on, and I'm thinking about trying out the tournament scene I've decided I need a list. But which one? Which one from the dozens I've written down from here and the Team Covenant website? Well, as a complete beginner what could make more sense than trying to put your own list together?

To that end, and using ships I like the look of or sound cool, I've come up with a squad that will allow me to play around a little and 'fine tune' over time. It also gives me a very thematic version to play, theme being an important part of the game for me. Firstly I had to pick sides... We always do. Whilst the game seems to be set up for Imperial versus Rebel games it happens where you play against the same faction. Now whilst Imperial v Imperial can be explained away (in-fighting, etc), Rebel v Rebel always looks a little 'wrong' to me. My first game was Rebel on Rebel action, but there you go. Imperials it is. So after a little reading, a little deciding which ships I like best, and a little shuffling of upgrade cards and staring out the window at the neighbours cat, I've come up with this... The PhantomanaTIE build. First the 'thematic' version, which is based loosely on the 'Vader Escort' Shuttle build:-

• Omicron Group Pilot + Darth Vader
• Shadow Squadron Pilot + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire Control System + Rebel Captive
• Backstabber
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

​Now I should point out I have no idea if this will work! I like Shuttles and I like Phantoms and I like little TIE mini-mini-swarms, so it just seemed like a natural fit. The first less thematic version of the list and the one that I shall probably try flying first as there is plenty of 'tweeking' that can be done is this:-

• Omicron Group Pilot + Fire Control System + Gunner + Tactician
• Sigma Squadron Pilot + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire Control System + Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

​I've already got a couple of variations I want to try out. Swapping FCS + Gunner on the Shuttle for Advanced Sensor and Engine Upgrade is one. I'd also like to explore Navigator in place of the Rebel Captive as well as more obvious things like stripping out the upgrades in the list to 'bump' the Phantom into Echo.

That's enough waffle for now (if you made it this far well done!). Any thoughts, suggestions and advice are all eagerly sought. I'll post an update after I've flown it for the first time.

This keeps the thematic Vader Shuttle but gets you a stronger Phantom. I'd expect that you would have more success with Echo than either an ACD Sigma or Shadow.

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Darth Vader (3)

"Echo" (30)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Fire-Control System (2)

Rebel Captive (3)

Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

That's a nice list I may steal that.

I think you can get a good amount of mileage out of a Stygian Particle accelerator and a Sigma but the Echo list is probably "better". Too bad you have to lose Backstabber; a third hard hitter would play nice with the Doomshuttle and Echo.

• Omicron Group Pilot + Fire Control System + Gunner + Tactician
• Sigma Squadron Pilot + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire Control System + Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot​

Dropping the ACD on the Sigma and replacing it with a Stygium Particle Accelerator, as well as dropping Tactician from the Shuttle frees up the four points needed to keep Backstabber (see, the list is adapting already! ). I'm also toying with the idea of trying out a Saber Squadron Interceptor with either Push the Limit or Predator in place of two of the Academies - They're still TIE's after all!

• Omicron Group Pilot + Fire Control System + Gunner + Tactician
• Sigma Squadron Pilot + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire Control System + Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot​

Dropping the ACD on the Sigma and replacing it with a Stygium Particle Accelerator, as well as dropping Tactician from the Shuttle frees up the four points needed to keep Backstabber (see, the list is adapting already! ). I'm also toying with the idea of trying out a Saber Squadron Interceptor with either Push the Limit or Predator in place of two of the Academies - They're still TIE's after all!

I'd stick with the 2 Academies instead of the PTL Saber. I find that having PS1 blockers is really handy. You should be able to have some success if you can bog your opponent down with your shuttle and TIEs while your Phantom dances around the outside of the fight. I don't think that the Saber is a bad choice, it's just that you already have a squishy posistion ship with the Phantom, adding the extra meat of the TIE fighters gives you a little more room for error.

I meant in the echo list and dropping 4pts off that list is going to change play a lot (I can see getting rid of VI but anything else really starts to hurt: RC needed for other phantom phights, FCS isn't enough for upgrade)

My question is "why are you looking for A list"? I mean, why are you limiting yourself to one list? Variety is the spice of life, man... live a little!

Sure, the more you play a given list, the more you will know its ins and outs and the better (theoretically) you will do with it but that gets boring after a while. All the studying and research you have done on list building is great but just because so-and-so won Worlds with a given list or the current Meta says you should chose "X" list to be competitive, that does not mean THAT list will work for you. You need to find a list that works with your play style... and that means experimenting with a variety of list types. Besides, the best way to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of your likely opponents' lists is to try them out yourself!

Oh, and the most important thing is to have fun . I have over 30 lists (Rebel and Imperial)I have experimented with and not all of them are great but they were ALL playable and they were ALL FUN.

Just sayin'

Fly Casual

My question is "why are you looking for A list"? I mean, why are you limiting yourself to one list? Variety is the spice of life, man... live a little!

Sure, the more you play a given list, the more you will know its ins and outs and the better (theoretically) you will do with it but that gets boring after a while. All the studying and research you have done on list building is great but just because so-and-so won Worlds with a given list or the current Meta says you should chose "X" list to be competitive, that does not mean THAT list will work for you. You need to find a list that works with your play style... and that means experimenting with a variety of list types. Besides, the best way to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of your likely opponents' lists is to try them out yourself!

Oh, and the most important thing is to have fun . I have over 30 lists (Rebel and Imperial)I have experimented with and not all of them are great but they were ALL playable and they were ALL FUN.

Just sayin'

Fly Casual

While I pattenly disagree with this when preparing for a tournament setting,(I feel practice makes perfect and knowing the list you are using super well limits stupid mistakes) I think this is very good advice in general. I have found in playing this game for about 1.5 years, that I haven't done enough of the old "switch up my list for the sake of trying new things" and my game has suffered for it. I recently started playing a wider variety of list and find the experience freeing and challenging. So in general this is very good advice.

Cheers for the advice guys! In terms of 'needing a list', I think this mindset stems from playing Bloodbowl in a league setting for a long time. You tend to become attached to your 'team', watching it develop, learning what it can (and can't!) do and I think that sort of thing appeals to me personally. The PhantomanaTIE (d'ya see what I did there?) list allows me the freedom to switch different ships in and out (as long as they're TIE's!) and play around with two ships (Phantom and Shuttle) that carry a few interchangeable upgrades (FCS? Adv Sensors? Sensor Jammer?). I'm also looking at other lists that contain the same ships but in different configurations - the eight TIE swarm, Phantom + mini-swarm and Shuttle and TIE swarm in particular.

... In terms of rebel lists I'm doing something similar with builds based around the YT's.

Played my first game last night with the Shuttle against an Echo/Soontir/Vader list. I feel a bit guilty though as I deviated from the list somewhat by flying it with six Academy Ties (taking a little inspiration from WWHSD's list!). I had a thoroughly enjoyable time keeping a nice tight formation... Until that is I chain-bumped my swarm and flew a TIE off the board! Despite this I was able to defeat Echo (last of the trio standing) by blocking her intended de-cloak move and leaving her unable to draw a line of fire. Thoroughly enjoyed the swarm but it was the Shuttles lack of mobility (it had Gunner - which was never used and FCS) that stood out. I think next game I'm going to try the Sensor/Engine combo. Also realised just how much of a 'glass cannon' the Phantom can be if mistakes are made with its positioning.

We had an interesting chat after the game regarding Jendon and his Target Lock ability though. Mainly riffing off the possible synergy with Weapons Engineer (two locks) and ST-321 (target any ship on the board). Also discussed FCS too - though judging by how many shots I managed with the Shuttle this might only be a consideration after some more 'flight time'!

• Colonel Jendon + ST-321 + Weapons Engineer
• Howlrunner + Swarm Tactics
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

Is the first list that sprang to mind. I've tried pushing it around the table this morning but again the Shuttles lack of movement options means that it's a little difficult to keep within range 1 of the swarm and also narrows movement options for the TIE's. I'm thinking that Engine Upgrade (whilst dropping Howlrunner for Backstabber) might not be the answer as using the boost means you're not Target Locking... Any thoughts?

I definitely like the idea of the mini-swarm with shuttle. Personally, I think the 5 Ties and shuttle will be a lot better for you at a tournament than the one with a Phantom. In regards to tournament play (even local, casual ones), is to keep your list simple, especially if it is your first time at one. There will be an exponential amount of 'things' to keep track of, so keeping your list easy to remember is very helpful. For example, even as a veteran player, I have forgotten about Rebel Captive on my ship at least once every tournament I went to, if not multiple times. Thus I think a phantom with several upgrades will not perform as well for you.

To tweak the above build, I don't like Jendon in the list. Yes, the TLs are nice, but conflicts with the Howlrunner reroll. So I would drop him down to a doomshuttle again (simple, easy to remember, also don't have to worry about maneuvering the shuttle so much since it will be dead pretty soon). This should open points to upgrade Howl's defense and/or upgrade the Ties (say Backstabber+ Nightbeast/Darkcurse, or Mauler+swarm tactics). Simple and effective.

Cheers for the advice Texx... I think I've got over the 'Jendon' phase. I'm happier flying the Shuttle and mini-swarm at the moment so I'm going to leave adding in the Phantom for a while. In terms of the Shuttle load out, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Omicron Group Pilot, in fact I'm starting to think there's no need what-so-ever to even consider the named pilots. In terms of named TIE's I like Howlrunner (obviously!), though I'm having a hard term deciding between Backstabber and Dark Curse. I have a habit of playing games quite defensively (not just X-Wing, I mean games in general) and though I can see how useful Backstabber is as a flanker, Dark Curse's defensive capabilities seem to be 'calling to me'! Also feel drawn to a Black Squadron Pilot (or two!) with Draw Their Fire.

On a slightly different note... I've been looking at putting together a similar 'big-ship-mini-swarm' list for the Rebels... I'm currently looking at an Outer Rim Smuggler with Intel Agent + Navigator + Pursuit Lasers, an Outer Rim Smuggler with 2 Tacticians and three Bandits. I think I may developing a 'thing' for low PS builds!

Had a run out with the Space Cow again last night... And this time I threw in the Phantom! I chose to run a Sigma with Stygium and Recon Specialist rather than a named pilot as it meant I could take more TIE blockers (and a Black Squadron Pilot with Draw Their Fire - which I never used!). I was up against four Interceptors so the Phantom didn't last too long but I quite liked the two focus' and an evade each turn I de-cloaked. I think the next time I play I'll bite the bullet and use Echo alongside the Shuttle and two named TIE's.

Echo + ACD + VI + FCS + Recon Specialist or Rebel Captive (most likely the latter)

Omicron Group Pilot + Advanced Senors + EU

Backstabber

Dark Curse

I used the Engine Upgrade and Advanced Sensors on the Shuttle last night and found that the extra maneuverability really helped to keep it in the fight. This might be my default Shuttle build until I get used to flying it more!

Make sure you read (if you haven't already) Sable Griffons Shuttle 101.. he has great ideas and advice for flying those beautiful Bovines..

It's on the Pinned thread at the top..

Make sure you read (if you haven't already) Sable Griffons Shuttle 101.. he has great ideas and advice for flying those beautiful Bovines..

It's on the Pinned thread at the top..

Seen it, read it, digested it! If it wasn't for that article I probably would never have picked up a Shuttle at all

This keeps the thematic Vader Shuttle but gets you a stronger Phantom. I'd expect that you would have more success with Echo than either an ACD Sigma or Shadow.

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Darth Vader (3)

"Echo" (30)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Fire-Control System (2)

Rebel Captive (3)

Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

Going to try that list on the weekend. Thanks!

This keeps the thematic Vader Shuttle but gets you a stronger Phantom. I'd expect that you would have more success with Echo than either an ACD Sigma or Shadow.

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Darth Vader (3)

"Echo" (30)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Fire-Control System (2)

Rebel Captive (3)

Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 100

Going to try that list on the weekend. Thanks!

That's the list I should have gone with last night. It's next on my list after Shuttle/Echo/Backstabber/Dark Curse!

Make sure you read (if you haven't already) Sable Griffons Shuttle 101.. he has great ideas and advice for flying those beautiful Bovines..

It's on the Pinned thread at the top..

Seen it, read it, digested it! If it wasn't for that article I probably would never have picked up a Shuttle at all

I was suspicious.. lol

Yeah he has given me inspiration, I even have been running 3 shuttle lists. They are fun and troubling for those not used to coming up against them.. lol

I'm seriously thinking of adding another soon... Three would be my ultimate aim though. 3xOmicron + FCS + Gunner I think comes in at 96pts. Leaves four points for two tacticians. Hmmm ...

Nope.. 3X OGP FCS, Gunner, and EU +1 with the 321 title is 99 points.. it's a hoot to fly.

three buzzsaws... nice way to mess up your opponents day.. lol

I have 5 of the loverly Albino Cosmic Manatees.. and I love em.. gonna repaint a couple for fun..

I always forget about ST-321, so I've never used it. Just out of interest do you ever use Anti-Pursuit Lasers on any of your Shuttles (whether running them on their own or in groups)?

I have, it can be fun for those surprise bumps.. but it takes away my EU, so, rare, to say the least.. it would have to be part of the strategy for the build really..

I only ask as I've considered it on a Doom Shuttle... Kinda just 'park the bus' and hope that they run into you. I can see it being useful if your opponent has forgotten/doesn't know about the 0 stop!

imdeed.. lol.. where I've been gaming recently the guys there had never really gone against them, so they were taken back by someof the moves I used with those Cosmic Manatees.. lolbut they are some good players and recovered quickly.

I'm trying to find a good tourney list right now and have been playing a few different ones. so far one of my better lists is 2 Firesprays and a Black Squad. May drop the BSP for an AP and then more upgrades with the Sprays.. trying to get 2 HLCs for those as they are just brutal overall.. and I am doing rather well with them.

If the Bovines had a little bit better dial I could really whomp up with those.. lol. might try a Yorr/Bomber list with Jonus, maybe Howlrunner as well..