Sometimes in the media you see a Force user concentrating to do something, and it takes more time than "a round", or you see them "reach deep" and let off something more potent than usual. Let's say you have the upgrades that would allow you to apply 4 pips to a power, but you only have FR1...what to do?

I'm wondering if there can't be a mechanic to allow the Force user to accumulate pips. I'm drawing on the predecessor here, because WFRP 3 had such a mechanic. In this case, perhaps the user has to roll Discipline (in addition to anything else) to retain Force pips from one round to another, maybe:

Discipline check with a base difficulty equal to Force pips being held from previous round, with an upgrade for each pip over the user's current FR (which is their FR minus any commitments).

Round 1 the FR1 user generates a single pip. They want to build up to four pips.

Round 2 requires a Discipline check against P. They luck out and roll two pips, for a new total of three.

Round 3 requires a Discipline check against RRP: PPP for having 3 pips, upgraded twice because it's two higher than their FR.

Threats or Despair could disorient or stagger, and cause a loss of pips-per-Threat, or all pips on a Despair.

I'm not saying such a mechanic *is* needed...perhaps if you only have FR1, then you have to suck it up. But could this be useful at all? And if so, could it be too easily abused?

I like this idea..

Since "turning to the darkside" is a viable option for gaining the pips you need in a pinch, would this rival that mechanic too much and thus offset the morality rules?

Sounds like something that would require a Dpoint expenditure as well...

It's an interesting idea, but how to keep it from being abused is the question. I could see someone pumping Discipline specifically to ensure that it works at least the first step. And once you get to FR 3 this could get silly fast...

Would limiting based on FR be the way to go?

The higher the rating the less effective this option is. Representatively, early in your development there would be higher instances of "wild talent" than later on when your power is more under your control AND your training may have made you "set in your ways".

I would make this "method" only available under FR 3

I would make Round 2, Starting difficulty being average because it isn't an "easy" thing to concentrate on the force.

I would have the "upgrades" of the check be the number of pips you currently have stored.

Rounds are only allowed until the "pips" amount hits what a FR3 person could generate, or 3 rounds, whichever condition comes up first. A FR3 person should have all the luck needed and not get additional methods to stack powers. This will limit abuse as well.

Narratively I like the idea of despair being losing the stored pips. The scene with Luke trying to life his X-wing comes to mind.

Just my thinking on seeing this idea.

it's an interesting idea in theory, but again the problem is as others suggested how to keep it balanced, particularly when the PCs aren't in a combat or other time-sensitive situation and thus have the time simply "gather" enough energy until their success at using the power is a foregone conclusion... at which point, why are they even bothering to roll the dice?

I'm thinking that this should be something beyond the run-of-the-mill Force user, requiring at least some degree of advanced ability, but not so advanced as to be all but out of reach until after a few hundred XP. So in that vien, I'd restrict this option to PCs with a Force Rating of 2 or better.

Requiring a Destiny Point cost to do this is a foregone conclusion in my mind, but I'd suggest dropping the Discipline check as that simply adds an extra complication for no real benefit.

As for the Force die rolling and collecting pips... offhand I'd say the PC would be capped as to how many rounds they could do this by the lower of their Willpower or Discipline, as well as suffer strain equal to one half of the FPs generated from doing this. Or could be wounds if you figure that the Force user is really taxing themselves to the limit, though I think wounds is a bit harsh.

So a PC with Heal, Force Rating 2, Willpower 3, and Discipline 2 really needs to generate a lot of Light Side points to patch up two badly injured allies in something of a hurry, both of whom have exceeded their Wound Threshold. She figures she needs at least five light side points (1 for the base power, 2 for a Magnitude Upgrade, 1 for her Strength Upgrades, 1 to trigger those Strength Upgrades a second time) though a sixth would let her patients also recover some strain as well.

She spends her Destiny Point to begin "gathering the Force around her" but can only hold that much 'energy' for so long (2 rounds as her Discipline of 2 is lower than her Willpower of 3).

1st Round: Rolls her two Force dice, and comes up with 1 dark side pip and 2 light side pips. She stocks the two LS pips.

2nd Round: Rolls again, and lucks out with both dice coming up 2 light side pips, all four of which she stocks.

End result: Our healer has 6 Force Points to work with, enabling her to activate the various Heal Upgrades that she wanted. But she also suffers 3 strain from mental effort of gathering and channeling the Force in a means far above her ability.

The tricky part I see is what if the PC wants to use those dark side pips? Technically they've already spent a Destiny Point, so they generally couldn't flip another one on the same action. Although I suppose you could just let them suffer the strain hit and Conflict penalty and waive the Destiny Point since the PC is pretty much "opening themselves up to the Force."

Perhaps just boiling it down so it can only be accumulated from one turn.

So spend a Destiny Point and Action (or Maneuver + Strain with Force is my Ally), and they roll their Force Rating and they need to use the stocked force points before the end of their next turn. No Discipline check to simply hold the force points, but they do have to do a check when they're hit by successful attacks or are otherwise disrupted. Check could maybe be similar to what was originally proposed, difficulty = force points, upgraded for every point past force rating; but each successful attack increases it somehow? Maybe a further upgrade for every unsoaked point of damage?

Narratively I like the idea of despair being losing the stored pips. The scene with Luke trying to life his X-wing comes to mind.

Good example. Luke might have only had one Strength upgrade. He managed to gather enough trigger basic Move and the Strength upgrade a couple of times, but then lost it (and the X-Wing sank further) on a Despair, leaving him exhausted.

It's an interesting idea, but how to keep it from being abused is the question. I could see someone pumping Discipline specifically to ensure that it works at least the first step. And once you get to FR 3 this could get silly fast...

I think the Difficulty per pip being stored helps keep it under control, but difficulty could start at Easy + Force pip, or Average + Force pip. Or make the difficulty automatically upgraded...nobody is going to want to tempt a Despair with more than a couple of saved pips.

Requiring a Destiny Point cost to do this is a foregone conclusion in my mind, but I'd suggest dropping the Discipline check as that simply adds an extra complication for no real benefit.

The benefit is the element of risk, which isn't introduced otherwise. WRPG had rules for overload, etc. I wouldn't want to get bogged down in too much detail, but threat and despair can replicate that nicely. I think you're right that it should be turn-limited. Not sure about the DP flip requirement, I think the cons (below) make up for that, and as you say, you might need them for dark pips. Maybe it should cost Strain though.

Perhaps just boiling it down so it can only be accumulated from one turn.

Probably best, just to keep it from building too far. This means the OP example would have failed, but that seems fine to me, especially as they do have the option of flipping DP. I still think a Discipline check is necessary.

Pros: you can do impressive stuff if it all works out

Cons: you lose a turn just "gathering"; you're at risk of being Disoriented or Staggered after you try

I wouldn't use this in an encounter, but I could see a variation of "Take 20" from 3E D&D where, if unhurried, a Force user could assume the most favorable roll (i.e. 2 pips per FR) -- tearing a giant door of its hinges and tossing it aside like used napkin is just waaay more interesting than just turning the handle.

I'm thinking that this should be something beyond the run-of-the-mill Force user, requiring at least some degree of advanced ability, but not so advanced as to be all but out of reach until after a few hundred XP. So in that vien, I'd restrict this option to PCs with a Force Rating of 2 or better.

Another option could be to turn this into a Signature Ability-type thing, and be able to buy it onto the bottom of any FaD tree, with upgrades and stuff the way SAs are laid out.

Slows a bit, can unbalance a bit too, but in general an interesting idea.

I will consider that let roll an initial FR, and every subsequent round roll you can roll again with no Discipline check. Remeber that you MUST spend an Action to do that, so, considering that you loose your attack or other actions just "focusing", it's enough penalizations and I see no need of a check.

By the way I insist, its a bit dangerous because some uses can unbalance things. Remember that you can have all the theoric skill of a basketball players (Power Upgrades), but you have to train to achieve that type of movements gaining physical potencial (Force Rating).

As separated rule you can always use a house rule like "you can only pick X level upgrade, for example Magnitude 2, based on your FR or your FR+X. This way a FR 2 character can only pick up, up to, Strenght 2, Range 2, etc. Can be a curious choice.

PS: Today will be Update 10?

I wouldn't use this in an encounter, but I could see a variation of "Take 20" from 3E D&D where, if unhurried, a Force user could assume the most favorable roll (i.e. 2 pips per FR) -- tearing a giant door of its hinges and tossing it aside like used napkin is just waaay more interesting than just turning the handle.

I'd probably do that anyway, if there was no time limit. This mechanic would be for in extremis situations.

Why not use the rules from WFRP3 for storing/channeling magic points? Allow a Force User the ability to store up to an equal number of Force Points (of player's choice; light or dark) to the character's Willpower characteristic. But doing so comes with negatives, like a Discipline Check if they take an Action (that isn't generate Force Points or activate Force Power) , take Damage, requires an Action to generate Force Points (and subsequently store them), etc.

It adds the element to 'build up' force powers (for effect or attack even), but doesn't allow for one to 'Commit' them and makes it difficult to store Points all the time and still take Actions and Attack. It'd really help the Force Wizards alot.

I like the idea, but I would say if they wish to store DS pips, the strain increases to match the number of points stored instead of half, multiplied by 1.5 for LS paragons, and the reverse for DS characters, plus I would make them roll the Discipline checks as outlined in the first suggestion with a max number of rounds equal to the lower of Willpower or Discipline.

Modified:

The Force user may retain any Force pips gained on a roll of the Force dice for one round.

Before the resolution of their next action, or the end of the next round, the Force user must make a Discipline check to if they can hold the retained pips. The difficulty of the check is equal to the number of pips being retained. The difficulty is then upgraded for each pip over 2, or the user's current FR (FR minus commitments) whichever is less.

Examples:

FR1 wants to retain 1 pip. Difficulty is Easy (P).

FR1 wants to retain 2 pips. Difficulty is Average, upgraded once (RP).

FR4 wants to retain 3 pips. Difficulty is Hard, upgraded twice (RPP).

Dice results:

Success: pips are retained and can be spent along with any pips gained in the upcoming action

Failure: pips are lost

1A+: recover Strain

Triumph: on success, may retain pips for another round

Triumph: on failure, may add a boost die to the next Force-related roll in this encounter

1T+: suffer Strain

3T: user suffers Disorient 1

Despair: user suffers Disorient 3

To my recollection, the lore seems to indicate that this is really taxing, if only mentally... Why not require the user to take Strain equal to the pips they store *each turn*, and in WH40K style, if you are hit by an attack while charging, you have to make a Discipline check to not lose all your pips...

Dark Side pips could count for an extra point of Strain. Any threat on the Discipline check results in more Strain. Then just put a hard cap on how long you can do it (say, two turns), and require a DP, and you're good.

Characters may store pips up to a maximum amount equal to their Willpower. Strain threshold maximum is reduced by the amount stored until expended. At which time the threshold returns to normal.

Taking from several ideas, here (and the image of Qui-Gon meditating while waiting to reengage in combat with Maul), I will be play testing something rather like this, with an Exile, in a few days...

Using Discipline, a Force User can meditate and align themselves with the flow of the Force and store some pips for later use.

For the sake of this test, the difficulty will be average before an encounter starts and difficult once it has started and each success will generate a pip (again, this is only a test... I expect that will be changed). This can only be done once before or during an encounter (not both) and only in conjunction with a proper role of the Force die (stored pips cannot be used without that).

I am contemplating allowing a Triumph to be used to allow for a second attempt at meditation (provided time and situation allows it, as well), but I don't know, yet.

While I was thinking of permutations of this, I realized this is basically just a variation on One with the Universe. Basically taking a moment to stretch your limits with the Force.

I think allowing something like this as a normal part of the force rules may be a mistake. There should be some kind of investment in it, since basic Force use seems pretty balanced as is. This would alter that, especially when it comes to reliability at low force rating.

All that said, I love the idea. So maybe this ability should be a Force Power or Universal Signature Ability. Signature Ability would make sense if you see this as something that should be done rarely, and a Force Power would make sense if you see this as something Force Users use more frequently.

Signature Abilities generally cost Destiny Points and are game changers. This could be something like allowing a set number of force die to be rolled at the beginning of a session then used over the duration (2-3 turns) of the Ability. The rest of the tree could increase duration, allow extra force die to be rolled, or really any other highly impressive and over the top use of the Force.

A Force Power would start lower but could be a kind if meta-power. Like the left side of Enhance in some ways. Maybe start with allowing you to store a single Light Point point and a single Dark Point in exchange for 1 strain threshold each. Or one Strain for Light and one Wound for Dark. Or could be limited to the lower of your Willpower or Discipline. Strength Upgrades could give a flat bonus, or could change it to higher of your Willpower or Discipline. Range or Magnitude could allow you to share one or more Force Points or even Force Rating or Power with another person. Control upgrades could include things like allowing you to break up a force roll among more than one force power. I am sure there are lots of odd one off uses of the Force that could be perfect for Control upgrades. My general lack of knowledge of the EU is working against me here.

Anyways, thats my 2 cents. Awesome possibilities, but should have a cost more than the transient.

Ah! A Force power to improve your Force powers. Interesting.

Ah! A Force power to improve your Force powers. Interesting.

Like a way to focus your skill in using the force.....oh wait... that didn't work out did it?

vodswyld's got a valid point in the suggested house rule begins trampling over the One with the Universe (Ow/tU) talent, at least in concept, and especially if it's something that any Force user can do in spite of their Force Rating. And since Discipline is a skill that most Force users are going to have invested in as opposed to One with the Universe's usage of Astrogation.

Looking at the core idea (provide a way for Force users to generate more Force Points than they'd generally be able to), I think that the current suggestions are all far too powerful since they generally do trample over an existing talent.

As for how to implement this ability (I do like the idea of allowing a Force user to occasionally pull off Force usage above what they're normally capable of) without making Ow/tU an irrelevant talent... that I'm currently not sure about.

At the very least, a Destiny Point should be required and said ability restricted to a once per session. I do like the idea of a hefty strain cost to reflect the exhaustion of channeling/storing so much additional power, and it would help counter-balance the potential power of the ability, especially if it's an "everyone can do it" sort of thing vs. Ow/tU being fairly exclusive.

This just occurred to me... Is the potential scarcity of pips part of what balances Force powers?

Would allowing pip storage be, essentially, unfair to non-Force-Users?

This just occurred to me... Is the potential scarcity of pips part of what balances Force powers?

Would allowing pip storage be, essentially, unfair to non-Force-Users?

I would not say its unfair if it is purchased at a reasonable XP cost.