my firends and i were playing this game and one us had finn edwards. finn got the king in yellow as his random item. when he used it we realized that finn doesnt ever have to discard anything so he could use the king in yellow and not have to discard it. also he doesnt have to discard the whiskey he starts with so he can use whiskey in every situation he loses sanity. if this is true finn is easily the most poweful character in the game.

He is amazing, but he's not that good!

This is the difference between a cost and a loss (see also: sanity costs for spells). You have to discard "discard to use" items, because if you don't pay the cost of discarding them, you can't use them. So yes, Finn can always keep the Whiskey and never have to discard it. If he ever wants to actually cancel a point of sanity loss with it, however, instead of merely having it hanging around looking pretty, it gets discarded.

Poor Ithaqua, on the other hand, really suffers when Finn is in the game.

k that makes sense. thanks

Say, that's a good point. Couldn't everyone just pool their iems onto Finn before Ithaqua awoke? That kind of sucks. Maybe Finn's ability should not work for Ithaqua's Start of Battle, in the same way that McGlen's ability doesn't work on Rhan-Tegoth's attack?

I don't know. Ithaqua's already really low on the difficulty rankings. This would just break his heart. His cold, black heart.

I CAN DRINK INFINITE WHISKY AND NEVER GO INTO AN ALCHOHOL COMA BECAUSE I AM FINN EDWARDS! WHOOOOO!

Tibs said:

::Snort:: yes, actually they could. Which is rather pathetic ;') there should be an F.A.Q. revision against this. After all, Lily was errated after publication to reduce her threat against Yig and Ithaqua, why not Finn? Post this in the F.A.Q. please :')

Tibs said:

Of course, if they did, and then Ithaqua took a couple of turns longer than expected and Finn got devoured in the meantime, it would serve them right.

There's also a question of whether it protects weapons against Cthugha. There's perhaps more of an argument there that it's a cost rather than a loss (on the other hand, since Finn can't then share out the weapons he's protected, it's less of a big deal)

I've added both to the FAQ requests, anyway.

And while we're at it: How about Tomes like Book of Dzyan? Or other items that get discarded after you've used them a few times.

Of course, the flavor suggests they're dried up and should just be discarded, regardless of Finn's ability. But an official clarification would still be nice.

Bel-Shamharoth said:

I think that ALL items that are discarded as part of their use are unaffected by Finn's ability. This includes Whiskey, Enchanted Jewelry, Silver Key, etc.

Finn's ability only affects items that are lost as a penalty or by accident. This is similar to why you would not get all your sanity back if you were forced to lose Duke somehow.

To which I say: "no investigator may use their Special Ability in the Final Battle"

From section 31.4 of the Rules A.K.A>. : "Rules that should have been included but weren't".

:-)

(Thanks Coltsfan, btw. Working fine now, at least at home. Still didn't look right in work, I'll try again Monday.)

- chris

Hopefully this is the right thread for such a thing...

Looking over the forums, I have seen a few people agree that it should be played that "item costs" need to be paid to receive their effect; i.e. if Finn wants to use research materials instead of a clue, he must discard it.

Just to be sure, this is just a house rule to balance him, yes? Because I can't see any rules which really prevent Finn from uppercutting most (chaugnar would be immune to this) ancient ones with a single research material*. Which is a bad thing, but it is currently legal rules-wise.

*Besides occasions were you spend multiple clue tokens at once, i.e. gate sealing, fed raid track, etc. he is able to suceed on any roll with research materials due to the way you spend clue tokens in AH - consecutively. So for any sort of skill check he'd auto-succeed, unless card effects prevent the use of clues. In the game I played he had 2 research materials, holy water, whiskey, food (which still only prevent one stamina/sanity loss - I have seen this misinterpreted elsewhere on the forums. They will just do so for every instance of sanity/stamina loss that will ever occur from then on out). This was utterly ludicrous, and the game would have been definately lost if this - in my opinion unintentional - special abillity hadn't worked that way. It would be better to FAQ, as has been suggested, that Finn doesn't receive the benefits of a card that needs to be discarded to activate its abilities.

Since, surprisingly, the question isn't in the FAQ, I added it there as well. (I mean I added "Can Finn really use infinite tomes/dynamite/etc.).

this is one of those cases that drive me crazy! isn't it obvious that the designers intend Finn to have to pay costs and not get infinite anything? he dosen't discard when he is driven insane or stuff like that. i could see the rules bickering if this was a pvp game but its not so come on!!

I don't know the exact card text*, but here's my estimation:

There is a difference between "discard to gain benefit X" items and "discard if Y happens" items. In the first case, Finn doesn't get an advantage - he may decide not to discard the item, but he cannot keep it and gain its benefit at the same time. I think this item type includes research material and dynamite, but I'm not sure.

However, there is no official rule preventing him from using an item of type #2, like a tome or the silver key, and keeping the item. Everyone is free to "fix" this on their own, though, and maybe there will be a F.A.Q. adressing this.

* I tried to get Innsmouth today, but no copies were left

there is an official rule!! it says it on the card!!!

pittplayer said:

I don't know what you're trying to tell me: Which rule? Which card? And why would it imply that Finn has to discard a tome after using it? (and in the case you don't mean that, where's the relation to what I wrote?)

Please be a little more specific, and use less exclamation marks.

I think he means the card says that it he still has to discard the item if it is a cost.

has to pay all costs! as i have said if you can CHOOSE to it, it is pretty much always a cost, if a monster drives u insane and you have to lose items then you dont have too, this is what Finn does, he doesn't help you cheat!

@pittplayer

It is important to ask these sorts of questions - there is no such thing as common sense. Once one realizes these things, one can also let go of the notion that this is being argued to get "an advantage" out of the game.

Anyway, as far as I can see and as far as Hailressort has pointed out - your rules examples are completely fictional. I haven't seen the term "item cost" before, except in forum threads which try to make a distingishing element between two different ways in which an item can be discarded - this is fine as a house rule fix - however, the rules literally encompass both "item costs" and "item losses" - two terms, which, again, have only been recently invented.

You might be confusing this with the difference between stamina/sanity costs and losses, a difference which has been stated in the rules and FAQs.

Uh, okay. I haven't actually SEEN Innsmouth in person yet, so I have no way of knowing, but this was on the Arkham Wiki page:

Unless this is not the actual card from the deck, it says plain as day under Holdout. "He must still pay costs as usual."

To me this implies that discarding the item is the cost of gaining the benefit. I suppose other people might argue the other side, but that's really what makes the most sense in this case.

I agree with you on the topic of things like Whiskey or Research Materials, which have to be discarded to get the effect. I would define that as cost.

But discarding a tome is not a cost. It is an effect because you do only discard it if you succeed at the check. The only exception is the Book of the Believer which is discarded in any case. Compare it to spells, where the Sanity required is a cost and has to be paid even if you fail the check. Dynamite and similar weapons are also discarded after use, not as a cost to trigger their use.

The Silver Key, Enchanted Jewelry and Golden Trumpet also do not discard as a cost, but as an effect once three tokens have been put on it.

Finally, the Mask Exhibit items also are not discarded as a cost, but as an effect.

Now I would discard all of these items anyway, because to me, it clearly was not intended to work for these items and it would be ridiculous to allow him infinite uses of the Jewelry/Trumpet or read the King in Yellow every turn. But still, a very literal interpretation of his ability would allow all that.

Morgaln said:

In a Ghatanothoa game, be my guest .

Dam said:

In that case I prefer the Cabala of Saboth, thank you very much .

Although I'd probably prefer the Eltdown Shards in every game, now that I think about it.

Morgaln said:

Cabala? Use-discard for 1 Skill? Or did you mean True Magick, 1 Movement point, -1 Lore check, get 1 Clue lose 1 Sanity?

Eltdown Shards is another reason I'm glad I don't have KH. Removing doomers should be a tasking job, not a shopping one. Yes, I realize Elder Signs are a shopping job as well, but at least someone needs to take that trek through the OW before you can use one (in most cases).

To me Finn is just great at holding on to things. Things can't steal his items. He keeps them locked to him.

I think people are getting this man confused with an alchemist named Edward Elric. Even in fullmetal alchemist the law states: To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is Alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange.

How does Finn keep creating items to replace others out of thin air lol.

As far as discarding effects..hrmm that is a very good question. Can't wait for the FAQ to officially answer that.