Hey, for anyone who has seen my posts, you should know that I have a problem with too many upgrades for a ship. One thing about this game that was appealing was you got to build fun squads with whatever you wanted on them in some cases. I've always liked a game where you could customize something to make it your own. but this game might have too many possibilities that it works against you and sometimes you don't realize it. I have tunnel-vision combined with a dose of pessimism and perfectionism. With only one win under my belt in what seemed like a fluke at best, I would like to know how an upgrade should be added to a ship or if it would be better standard. I am in a small group of players with the least amount of ships so I don't have the luxury of swarms and I know that everyone's thing now is either fat Han builds or Phantoms. Most of the fleets I try to come up with don't work. Instead of just random fleets with different upgrades on them, I would like to hear how and why you put a certain upgrade on a ship or not on a ship because if I don't switch it up, it won't matter how many ships I buy the result will be the same.

Well...what do you own?

And yeah, perfectionism is a pain in the ass (I suffer greatly from it when designing lists, too ). Best thing to do is drill into your head that more ships are generally > more upgrades, save for heavy exploiters (ala Phantom and YT-1300)

One thing I try to build for is mitigating my horrible luck, which involves trying to get target-locks and focus on high PS ships. To acomplish this, I take either an enabler with swarm tactics (Howl or Airen work best, imo) and generic pilots or characters that can pile on re-rolls and/or free focus...sometimes both. Then, I shoot the enemy hopefully before I have to add my green dice to the equation (whole bag of worms there).

If I can accomplish that, I'm generally set. It's why I run Wedge with just Predator, and Keyan with just Advanced Sensors with potential V.I. I could do incredibly silly things with Keyan (Sensors, Opprotunist, Heavy Laser Cannon, B/e Wing, C3PO...47 smackers right there) but then I'm missing out on almost a whole other ship, so I stop myself short because he meets the quota with just his native PS, Target-Lock and his Stress ability.

Because I'm a sucker for these high PS and re-roll + focus stacking set-ups and they tend to be expensive, I'll limit myself to two and just fill out the rest of the list with 3+ of the cheapest ship (ala mini-swarm). No upgrades. You have to learn to trust your Zs and Ties (well, not so much ties anymore, not with my dice) because more often than not they'll actually do more damage than the expensive character your opponent is so worried about

In short, try a mini-swarm. You can limit yourself to one or two ships laden with upgrades (52's a good value, max out at 64 at the absolute most) to see how they work, and then just fill up on bodies. They give you more easily digested experience on which upgrades are worthwhile and prove time and time again why quantity has a quality all of its own.

Yeah, it's hard to give out advice if we don't know what you have.

I'm also in the more > less school in terms of ships vs. upgrades. However, I take it that you don't have the same luxury.

In general, I try not to spend more than 25% of the base cost of a ship on upgrades unless I have a specific reason to do so.

When I am choosing upgrades I try to imagine how the average round with a ship is going to work. If I have a ship with a lot of actions available I won't take any upgrades that require spending an action since I'll almost always want to use my action for something else. If an upgrade incurs stress to use I'll look at the ship's dial to see if I'll be able to easily shed the stress or if having the stress would be too big of a liability.

I also tend to take upgrades that trigger frequently and that I'm not likely to forget to apply.

^^ what this guy said.

It's better to try and add upgrades that you can always use and don't take up an action use. Such as advanced sensors or Predator.

I usually prefer more ships over upgrades as well, though you can get some nice combos going with the named pilots, which once again can be used without requiring an action, like Etahn or howlrunner etc.

Thirded for a list of what you own.

A recognizable problem!

You can over-upgrade a ship by filling up all the slots available. Some games you will discover you will not be able to use all of them, as they ask for a different kind of play. For instance loading up Y-wing pilot with an astromech and a turret and two torpedoes is too much. Either go for torpedo delivery, or go for the more popular turret version. But not both.

One simple rule I got from a friend and which helped me a lot:

In a 100 points game, don't spend more than 10 points on upgrades.

No matter what you own, it will help you build more balanced squads as you have to spend the remaining 90 points on ships and pilots.

I think at first you should start with 1 anchor (pilot + upgrades to build around) then other generics (low pilot skill non-uniques) after that then build your upgrades from there.

While there are certainly exceptions as ships like Falcons and Phantoms perform best with a mountain of upgrades (and often specific upgrades), a pretty good rule if thumb is if you could afford another 3 attack ship in your list if you got rid of some upgrades, that's typically the better choice. IE rebels have X wings and at 21 points and Empire has Interceptors at 18 points. If you've spent more than those totals on upgrades in their respective faction, you should likely add another ship or adjust your build approach in some. But like I said above, some ships do perform better with upgrades and others almost have a free requisite upgrades that the ship needs to be competitive.

Start with the very specific interactions you want. (Pilot + Pilot, Pilot + Upgrade, Upgrade + Upgrade, et c)

Then look at how much space you have in your list.

More Ship > More Upgrades, almost always.

I too suffer from 'fancy flyers syndrome.' I want to create this sweet list that does stuff no one was ready for. In the end, I show up with a few ships that get tossed aside in the first round or two and then I'm flying scrap for the rest of the game (which goes rather quickly).

To wit, I've learned a few things from my own building, and some comments by 2-time world Champion Paul Heaver (not me).

1 Build for defense first, offense second. Make sure your ships can take some hits, so they're alive later to dish out the damage.

2 Play to your strengths - I suck at guesstimating my opponent's moves so I either go with high PS, or lots of small ships that can overlap arcs

3 Learn from yourself. The best teacher you have is your own playing. Think about your mistakes and your weaknesses and work to counteract them within your lists, and your flying.

The Mrs had a similar problem when building lists, often taking so many upgrades she would forget to use them or use them incorrectly. It was also co I caring things for her whilst still yeti f to grasp the basics. We I troduced a house ruling of no more than 4 upgrades per side, and max 2 per ship. Give that a try and almost force yourself to the k about list building without relying on upgrades as a crutch.

Obviously if you can find an opponent who's happy to follow suit thins will still be pretty even

Well...what do you own?

And yeah, perfectionism is a pain in the ass (I suffer greatly from it when designing lists, too ). Best thing to do is drill into your head that more ships are generally > more upgrades, save for heavy exploiters (ala Phantom and YT-1300)

One thing I try to build for is mitigating my horrible luck, which involves trying to get target-locks and focus on high PS ships. To acomplish this, I take either an enabler with swarm tactics (Howl or Airen work best, imo) and generic pilots or characters that can pile on re-rolls and/or free focus...sometimes both. Then, I shoot the enemy hopefully before I have to add my green dice to the equation (whole bag of worms there).

If I can accomplish that, I'm generally set. It's why I run Wedge with just Predator, and Keyan with just Advanced Sensors with potential V.I. I could do incredibly silly things with Keyan (Sensors, Opprotunist, Heavy Laser Cannon, B/e Wing, C3PO...47 smackers right there) but then I'm missing out on almost a whole other ship, so I stop myself short because he meets the quota with just his native PS, Target-Lock and his Stress ability.

Because I'm a sucker for these high PS and re-roll + focus stacking set-ups and they tend to be expensive, I'll limit myself to two and just fill out the rest of the list with 3+ of the cheapest ship (ala mini-swarm). No upgrades. You have to learn to trust your Zs and Ties (well, not so much ties anymore, not with my dice) because more often than not they'll actually do more damage than the expensive character your opponent is so worried about

In short, try a mini-swarm. You can limit yourself to one or two ships laden with upgrades (52's a good value, max out at 64 at the absolute most) to see how they work, and then just fill up on bodies. They give you more easily digested experience on which upgrades are worthwhile and prove time and time again why quantity has a quality all of its own.

I own this;

Rebels

2 A-Wings (one from rebel aces)

2 B-Wings (one from rebel aces)

1 CR-90

1 E-Wing

1 HWK-290

2 X-Wings (one from the core set, one expansion, neither are from the GR-75)

1 YT-1300

1 Z95

Imperial

1 Firespray

1 Advanced

1 Bomber

1 Defender

3 Fighters (two from the core set, one expansion)

2 Interceptors (Imperial Aces, no normal expansion)

2 Phantoms

Want to add at some point

1 Y-Wing

1 GR-75 Transport

1 Interceptor

1 Lambda shuttle

1 YT-2400

1 VT-49

1 Most Wanted

1 Aggressor

1 Star Viper

1 M-3A Interceptor

copies of different ships stated from before. I meant to put this in but it was late and I was getting tired.

Well...what do you own?

And yeah, perfectionism is a pain in the ass (I suffer greatly from it when designing lists, too ). Best thing to do is drill into your head that more ships are generally > more upgrades, save for heavy exploiters (ala Phantom and YT-1300)

One thing I try to build for is mitigating my horrible luck, which involves trying to get target-locks and focus on high PS ships. To acomplish this, I take either an enabler with swarm tactics (Howl or Airen work best, imo) and generic pilots or characters that can pile on re-rolls and/or free focus...sometimes both. Then, I shoot the enemy hopefully before I have to add my green dice to the equation (whole bag of worms there).

If I can accomplish that, I'm generally set. It's why I run Wedge with just Predator, and Keyan with just Advanced Sensors with potential V.I. I could do incredibly silly things with Keyan (Sensors, Opprotunist, Heavy Laser Cannon, B/e Wing, C3PO...47 smackers right there) but then I'm missing out on almost a whole other ship, so I stop myself short because he meets the quota with just his native PS, Target-Lock and his Stress ability.

Because I'm a sucker for these high PS and re-roll + focus stacking set-ups and they tend to be expensive, I'll limit myself to two and just fill out the rest of the list with 3+ of the cheapest ship (ala mini-swarm). No upgrades. You have to learn to trust your Zs and Ties (well, not so much ties anymore, not with my dice) because more often than not they'll actually do more damage than the expensive character your opponent is so worried about

In short, try a mini-swarm. You can limit yourself to one or two ships laden with upgrades (52's a good value, max out at 64 at the absolute most) to see how they work, and then just fill up on bodies. They give you more easily digested experience on which upgrades are worthwhile and prove time and time again why quantity has a quality all of its own.

I own this;

Rebels

2 A-Wings (one from rebel aces)

2 B-Wings (one from rebel aces)

1 CR-90

1 E-Wing

1 HWK-290

2 X-Wings (one from the core set, one expansion, neither are from the GR-75)

1 YT-1300

1 Z95

Imperial

1 Firespray

1 Advanced

1 Bomber

1 Defender

3 Fighters (two from the core set, one expansion)

2 Interceptors (Imperial Aces, no normal expansion)

2 Phantoms

Want to add at some point

1 Y-Wing

1 GR-75 Transport

1 Interceptor

1 Lambda shuttle

1 YT-2400

1 VT-49

1 Most Wanted

1 Aggressor

1 Star Viper

1 M-3A Interceptor

copies of different ships stated from before. I meant to put this in but it was late and I was getting tired.

Are you looking for an Imperial or Rebel list to fly? What is an example of a list that you are trying to make work?

I approach it the same way I do building a Magic the Gathering deck, based on some really good advice from the start of the game.

Never put a card in unless you have a plan for using it. Don't put something in because "well that would be cool". If you don't have a solid reason and plan for it, don't use it. Same goes for X-Wing. If I put an upgrade on a ship it's because I have a plan that involves using that upgrade.

For example if I put a Proton Torp on a X-Wing, how do I plan on making sure I can fire the thing and get the most damage out of it as possible. Or if I put Swarm Tactics on a ship, what ships will boost with it?

All of this needs to be decided while you're building the list, not during the game. You shouldn't sit down and part way through the game try to figure out how you're going to use a given upgrade.

If you can't come up with a good plan for that upgrade, then don't use it. Find something else to use, or pick a more expensive pilot perhaps? Or even rethink some of your ships so you can fit another one in.

Well...what do you own?

And yeah, perfectionism is a pain in the ass (I suffer greatly from it when designing lists, too ). Best thing to do is drill into your head that more ships are generally > more upgrades, save for heavy exploiters (ala Phantom and YT-1300)

One thing I try to build for is mitigating my horrible luck, which involves trying to get target-locks and focus on high PS ships. To acomplish this, I take either an enabler with swarm tactics (Howl or Airen work best, imo) and generic pilots or characters that can pile on re-rolls and/or free focus...sometimes both. Then, I shoot the enemy hopefully before I have to add my green dice to the equation (whole bag of worms there).

If I can accomplish that, I'm generally set. It's why I run Wedge with just Predator, and Keyan with just Advanced Sensors with potential V.I. I could do incredibly silly things with Keyan (Sensors, Opprotunist, Heavy Laser Cannon, B/e Wing, C3PO...47 smackers right there) but then I'm missing out on almost a whole other ship, so I stop myself short because he meets the quota with just his native PS, Target-Lock and his Stress ability.

Because I'm a sucker for these high PS and re-roll + focus stacking set-ups and they tend to be expensive, I'll limit myself to two and just fill out the rest of the list with 3+ of the cheapest ship (ala mini-swarm). No upgrades. You have to learn to trust your Zs and Ties (well, not so much ties anymore, not with my dice) because more often than not they'll actually do more damage than the expensive character your opponent is so worried about

In short, try a mini-swarm. You can limit yourself to one or two ships laden with upgrades (52's a good value, max out at 64 at the absolute most) to see how they work, and then just fill up on bodies. They give you more easily digested experience on which upgrades are worthwhile and prove time and time again why quantity has a quality all of its own.

I own this;

Rebels

2 A-Wings (one from rebel aces)

2 B-Wings (one from rebel aces)

1 CR-90

1 E-Wing

1 HWK-290

2 X-Wings (one from the core set, one expansion, neither are from the GR-75)

1 YT-1300

1 Z95

Imperial

1 Firespray

1 Advanced

1 Bomber

1 Defender

3 Fighters (two from the core set, one expansion)

2 Interceptors (Imperial Aces, no normal expansion)

2 Phantoms

Want to add at some point

1 Y-Wing

1 GR-75 Transport

1 Interceptor

1 Lambda shuttle

1 YT-2400

1 VT-49

1 Most Wanted

1 Aggressor

1 Star Viper

1 M-3A Interceptor

copies of different ships stated from before. I meant to put this in but it was late and I was getting tired.

Are you looking for an Imperial or Rebel list to fly? What is an example of a list that you are trying to make work?

I'm just more or less trying to understand the differences in upgrades and how to best utilize them on the ships I own. I'm looking for a way to determine what upgrades are offensive-based, defensive-based and supportive-based.

I'm looking for a way to determine what upgrades are offensive-based, defensive-based and supportive-based.

Here's some general guidelines...

If the upgrade affects the number red dice, lets you change the face of the die, or lets you reroll one or more of them, it's offensive. If it does that for green dice it's defensive.

If it lets you take additional actions or gives you actions you can't normally take it could be either, depending on what action(s).

If it affects Pilot Skill then it's generally a support upgrade.

Not sure if that helps or not, but it covers most upgrades that I can think of off the top of my head.

I'm looking for a way to determine what upgrades are offensive-based, defensive-based and supportive-based.

Here's some general guidelines...

If the upgrade affects the number red dice, lets you change the face of the die, or lets you reroll one or more of them, it's offensive. If it does that for green dice it's defensive.

If it lets you take additional actions or gives you actions you can't normally take it could be either, depending on what action(s).

If it affects Pilot Skill then it's generally a support upgrade.

Not sure if that helps or not, but it covers most upgrades that I can think of off the top of my head.

It gives me some Idea, now I just have to create a guide explaining this for myself.

Unless your ship costs more than 30 points I would really limit it to 1 upgrade per ship unless you have a very good reason for the upgrade. Interceptors almost always need Push the Limit, they need to be able to boost AND Barrel roll to avoid arcs or take a focus and evade if you aren't able to avoid most of your enemy's firing arcs. A-wings are in the same boat as interceptors the only difference is they have 2 attack dice so they could also benefit from outmaneuver or predator though for my flying style I run them with PtL + outmaneuver. Also in most cases on the A-wing always add the refit. Hwks and Y-wings generally need a turret if you find you have a couple of spare points I would also toss a crew on the hwk or a astromech on the Y-wing but only if you have extra points at the end of your build or they have a specific function you particularly need. B-wings depending on available points and your goal in using them throw on Heavy Laser Cannon or Advanced sensors. Keep fighters and Z's cheap don't add anything unless you really need to. I also keep non named X-wings naked. If I am running a named X-wing there is a reason and I upgrade it apporpriately to help it with whatever job I am using it for.

As for ships that cost over 30 points to start that is 1/3 of a 100pt list It is usually a ship you are building your list around and in this case I would kit them out to make them the most effect. I won't mention upgrades for the phantom or Falcon since there are more then enough threads about how they are OP with this or that or just people wanting list critiques on them so for the firespray if you are investing in a named one I would build to their strength. My friend runs Kath with marksman HLC and I think mercenary co-pilot alot of people will say its not a good build but I have seen it in action he focuses on her strength. Defenders are great cannon platforms as well whether you are running ion or HLC. With E-wings I tend to just pretend they are interceptors and kit them out the same though I usually give Coran R7-t1 so he can boost as well as barrel roll.

Those are some examples of how I tend to upgrade things. Vanor has a lot of good points on this issue as well.

For starting out (or refreshing oneself), I find it better to focus on a few specific things

1.) Avoid all missiles/torpedoes one-shot upgrades. Some of them are worth it (imo, specifically Proton Rockets/Ion Pulse/Flechette), but the vast majority are widely considered to be overcosted/underpowered (I'd agree) and bad luck can make them a complete waste of points.

2.) Avoid *Action upgrade cards. Most of them are just plain situational (Marksmanship and Expose especially), but worst of all is that I've seen many players forget they exist because they're too busy remembering their ships' base actions.

3.) Avoid "control" elements (such as Ion and Stress dealing mechanics), which are deadly in the hands of an experienced player but suicidal for a first outing. Control elements generally trade damage for their effects, whether it be Ion only ever dealing 1 (non-critical) damage or stuff like Scarlet or Tactician requiring very specific conditions, and striking a balance between them isn't easy. I, for one, still havn't gotten the hang of them

3.5) Also, less strongly, you might want to avoid "At the start of Combat" triggers. While they're usually really great (I do love me some Swarm Tactics), they're basically the ones people seem to forget the most often. A local player brought this hilarious 3 Omnicron + Vessery w/Wingman list (Farmer Vessery and his herd) to a tournie and he was often in very good positions for where Shuttle "full stop" manuevers would completely lock the enemy...if he had remembered to use Wingman even 1 out of 4 times

4.) Look for upgrades with persistent returns that don't cost you anything other than the points you spent on them.

The "System" slot is loaded with these kinds of upgrades, the most popular of which are easily the Fire Control System and Advanced Sensors.

I also really love the "Predator" elite pilot talent since it's such an easy way to give re-rolls + focus to ships that would otherwise have to jump through hoops to get them (such as basically anyone with no sensor slot to fire off both target-lock and focus actions at the same time).

Finally (sorry for the wall ), there's the question of "quantity" vs "quality" of damage dice rolls. From my personal experiences,

1.) Large #s of rolls with low #s of dice (basically, lots of 2 dice ships such as Tie Fighters or Z-95s) deal a lot of damage, even to high hull/shields low agility ships. Luck is largely mitigated through the sheer numbers of rolls you make. The problem is that higher agility ships have a greater probability of receiving less damage (because every attack roll will trigger a defense roll).

2.) Unmodified rolls with 3/4 dice are a complete crap-shoot. Generally, if you're relying on this kind of firepower you want as high a number of as durable a ship you can find, making it a rebel-prefered playstyle. More shots over the course of a game = more chances for the dice to spike.

For these reasons, I never take a Heavy Laser cannon on something that won't get some form of garanteed dice modificaton which means I rarely take Heavy Laser Cannons because they're 7 points on top of already expensive pilots (this will certainly change when/if the YT-2400 gets released)

3.) Modified (re-rolls + focus effect) 3/4 dice rolls are incredibly accurate and much better at forcing damage through high agility ships than lots of unmodified shots.

For my money, I like to strike a balance between the two extremes (1 & 3)

As an example, I've recently settled on the following army list following a string of hard defeats and it's been serving me very well:

1.) Wedge

*Predator

[32]

2.) Farlander

*Advanced Sensors

[32]

3.) Los Banditos (3 Z-95s)

[36]

Wedge and Farlander are my modified 3 red dice attack ships (Farlander having the added bonus of being fun to manuever ) while the 3 Bandits are the constant drizzle of 2 red dice that contribute a surprising amount of damage.

It gives me some Idea, now I just have to create a guide explaining this for myself.

One thing you could do, when you have access to your cards. Is make three or four piles, one for offensive upgrades, one for defensive, one for support, and one for "I dunno"

Then if have a question about how best to use a given upgrade ask about it here. We'd be happy to give you some ideas on what we think of it, and how best to use it.

Hopefully is kosher to share a link to the outside webs because I think the OP should check out themetalbikini.com

Great list building resources and discussion on pretty much every card for the game.

There's next to no issue with posting links to X-Wing sites.

Unless your ship costs more than 30 points I would really limit it to 1 upgrade per ship unless you have a very good reason for the upgrade. Interceptors almost always need Push the Limit, they need to be able to boost AND Barrel roll to avoid arcs or take a focus and evade if you aren't able to avoid most of your enemy's firing arcs. A-wings are in the same boat as interceptors the only difference is they have 2 attack dice so they could also benefit from outmaneuver or predator though for my flying style I run them with PtL + outmaneuver. Also in most cases on the A-wing always add the refit. Hwks and Y-wings generally need a turret if you find you have a couple of spare points I would also toss a crew on the hwk or a astromech on the Y-wing but only if you have extra points at the end of your build or they have a specific function you particularly need. B-wings depending on available points and your goal in using them throw on Heavy Laser Cannon or Advanced sensors. Keep fighters and Z's cheap don't add anything unless you really need to. I also keep non named X-wings naked. If I am running a named X-wing there is a reason and I upgrade it apporpriately to help it with whatever job I am using it for.

As for ships that cost over 30 points to start that is 1/3 of a 100pt list It is usually a ship you are building your list around and in this case I would kit them out to make them the most effect. I won't mention upgrades for the phantom or Falcon since there are more then enough threads about how they are OP with this or that or just people wanting list critiques on them so for the firespray if you are investing in a named one I would build to their strength. My friend runs Kath with marksman HLC and I think mercenary co-pilot alot of people will say its not a good build but I have seen it in action he focuses on her strength. Defenders are great cannon platforms as well whether you are running ion or HLC. With E-wings I tend to just pretend they are interceptors and kit them out the same though I usually give Coran R7-t1 so he can boost as well as barrel roll.

Those are some examples of how I tend to upgrade things. Vanor has a lot of good points on this issue as well.

Actually I have been trying to come up with a fleet around Kath. One of my friends who thrashed me in a tournament last week had a Kath build like this;

Kath Scarlet (36)

Marksmanship (3)

Gunner (5)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Seismic Charge (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Seismic Charge (2)

Scimitar Squadron Pilot (16)

Seismic Charge (2)

I only have one bomber, but I would like to try out at least one fleet with kath.

My friend runs her with HLC and either bombers with missiles or torps and Jonus or her and HLC, Jonus, and a defender with HLC. its effective but takes some practice. Bombers with bombs take practice too. Also with HLC you have to remember that while the first roll all crits are converted to hits if you reroll for whatever reason or have an ability that changes hits to crits the crits will stay. Which is why he runs the list the way he does.

My suggestion is find out what your play style is and then build lists around ships that fit that style. I will always recommend highly mobile ships because thats my play style. They take alot of practice to not always lose with them though. One of the 3 people I play with alot always plays rebels and almost always runs wedge and usually an HLC B-wing they just fit his play style so that what he runs and usually where he starts his list building. The guy in our play group that runs Jonus and HLCs tends to field lists similar to this just with different ships, though he has been splashing phantoms lately. My point is find the ships that fit your natural playstyle best and focus on those ships to start out. It will put more wins under your belt faster then anything else will.

lol I had a really loaded up Nara the other night WITH C3Po and kept forgetting about him! matter of fact i constantly have to go back and check my up grades and i STILL forget them from time to time... Next squad i build will have more ships and fewer upgrades!!! but even though i am getting my but kicked its still a blast to play..And i might add my butt has been kicked by a 12 year old on several occasions.... And i consider myself a veteran wargamer!! not a vet when it comes to X-wing though... very much a newb when it comes to actual play time..