Hi,

When Rhaegar dies and a player chooses to activate his ability, it is told in the FAQ that all remaining phases are considered to end. But, as I'm not an english native speaker, I'm not sure about the meaning. As I understand this, if Rhaegar dies during the Challenges phase, we go directly to the next Plot phase, without standing our characters (Standing phase) or giving back the gold to the pool (Taxation phase). Is that correct?

That´s correct. Once the reponse is triggered the round will immediately end without allowing other player. It´s nice to play a Valar Morghulis and use Rhaegar to jump into the next challenge phase, choosing are more attractive plot. The backdraw of Valar (low gold, zero claim) will be nullified this way.

Old Ben said:

Yeah that's great!

You are correct that when Rhaegar dies, you jump to the beginning of the next plot phase. No Dominance, no Standing, no Taxation, etc.

But since Rhaegar dies before the end of the Challenge phase - and jumps right past the end of that phase - what happens to all those "until the end of the phase" STR boosts or icon changes that happened before he died? If the Targ player had jumped Khal Drogo into play, would he stay on the table or go back to your hand when Rhaegar ends the round? Or what if you have an "Epic Battle" event card by your plot and Rhaegar makes you jump right past the Epic phase it would have created? Does the card stay there forever?

So when the FAQ says that every phase between Rhaegar's death and the beginning of the next plot phase is still considered to end, it is a way of making sure all of that "until the end of the phase" and "at the end of the phase" upkeep still happens. It's actually a really important clarification.

Yes, it's important. That's why they made the errata. Nice clarification Ktom.

Sorry for the thread necro.

You are correct that when Rhaegar dies, you jump to the beginning of the next plot phase. No Dominance, no Standing, no Taxation, etc.

But since Rhaegar dies before the end of the Challenge phase - and jumps right past the end of that phase - what happens to all those "until the end of the phase" STR boosts or icon changes that happened before he died? If the Targ player had jumped Khal Drogo into play, would he stay on the table or go back to your hand when Rhaegar ends the round? Or what if you have an "Epic Battle" event card by your plot and Rhaegar makes you jump right past the Epic phase it would have created? Does the card stay there forever?

So when the FAQ says that every phase between Rhaegar's death and the beginning of the next plot phase is still considered to end, it is a way of making sure all of that "until the end of the phase" and "at the end of the phase" upkeep still happens. It's actually a really important clarification.

So, what you're saying is that all "At the end of the phase..." effects still happen? Even those of the skipped phases? Or am I misunderstanding?

Say Rhaegar is killed in Challenges before I lose any MIL challenge. That means I still draw for my Guards at Riverrun - correct?

Same situation as above, but before Rhaegar dies I trigger Den of the Wolf. That means I draw *twice* for my Guards at Riverrun, once for the end of the current challenge phase, and once for the skipped phase - correct?

This does sound somewhat crazy, but from what I infer from ktom's four years old post above, it should work that way. Or what is it I'm misunderstanding?

So, what you're saying is that all "At the end of the phase..." effects still happen? Even those of the skipped phases? Or am I misunderstanding?

That is what I am saying (or what I said).

Say Rhaegar is killed in Challenges before I lose any MIL challenge. That means I still draw for my Guards at Riverrun - correct?

Same situation as above, but before Rhaegar dies I trigger Den of the Wolf. That means I draw *twice* for my Guards at Riverrun, once for the end of the current challenge phase, and once for the skipped phase - correct?

That is how those situations would work out, yes. Such situations do not come up often, but in order to make sure all "until the end of the phase" lasting effects resolve cleanly, such seemingly-strange "at the end of the phase" shenanigans could be possible. Point is - anything that would happen passively at the end of a phase still happens.

Thank you, ktom!

That's a very interesting way to have Rhaegar work. I expected "end of current phase" and "end of round" to be the only "end of phase" frameworks to be reached.

Yea. Is this a clarification? There's a full stop after the "end the round." There's no indication that anything happens except that he's killed. I'd argue you can't even play another response once his ability is triggered. It's just BANG! Plot phase. Hell his full effect specifically says proceed to the next plot phase directly. How can there be anything, including an end of round, if at the resolution of the effect it is the beginning of the plot phase?

"Response: After Rhaegar Targaryen is killed,end the current round. Proceed to the next plot phase. Any player can trigger this response."

Edit: All end of phase effects would actually be cleaned up at the end of the plot phase. This is because that is when those effects are wiped out by the game mechanics. There is no need for any further clarification on how those end. Khal Drogo would return to hand at the end of the plot phase (which is the very next "End of phase" after he was played).

I would say that we must move on to finish the framework action in which Rhaegar is killed because we need reach step 6 so that we can remove all Moribund cards from play. Otherwise, Rhaegar would be incredibly difficult to kill due to his own response.

Yes, ending each phase is an official clarification. It's in the FAQ.

Once Rhaegar is triggered, there are no more triggered effects, only each "end of phase" framework (remember, no responses in end-of-phase frameworks), then the beginning of the next plot phase.

The clarification is there because "until the end of the phase" would arguably NOT clear at the end of the next plot phase because the phase being referred to didn't officially end. Or what about Epic events, for example, since they go to the discard pile at the end of the Epic phase (that will now never begin)?

Interesting... I find that odd, but it doesn't really matter.

Why exactly wouldn't the until end of phase effects end on the plot "end of phase" cleanup? I thought "Until the end of the phase" meant quite literally "Until the framework action 'Phase ends'."

Actually I'm looking at the FWA and for some reason they made the phase ends specific instead of generic, which I find odd. They could've left them generic and it wouldn't really have mattered, so let's say they were generic. Why wouldn't a Khal Drogo bounce at the next "Phase Ends" no matter what phase it was?

Going back to what Bomb said, if I play a response to Rhaegar (or passives trigger) in what phase do they trigger? Do all of the "end of phase" actions happen immediately at the resolution of Rhaegar's effect or do they get tacked on at the end of phase 6? Basically, if I respond to Rhaegar's death am I responding in the plot phase or the challenges phase? This actually is significant if a card like Forgotten Plans (Forgotten Plans on a Fortified Position for example) is in play, so there's actually potential it could come up in a real game.

Why exactly wouldn't the until end of phase effects end on the plot "end of phase" cleanup? I thought "Until the end of the phase" meant quite literally "Until the framework action 'Phase ends'."

Actually I'm looking at the FWA and for some reason they made the phase ends specific instead of generic, which I find odd. They could've left them generic and it wouldn't really have mattered, so let's say they were generic. Why wouldn't a Khal Drogo bounce at the next "Phase Ends" no matter what phase it was?

Let's look at it this way: Rhaegar dies in the Challenge phase. His Response "warps" you to the beginning of the next plot phase. Technically, without the clarification, you have haven't gotten to the end of the Challenge phase yet - something that would be supported by your assertion that any "until the end of the phase" effects that were triggered before he died haven't ended yet. So, is it the Challenge phase or the Plot phase now? We haven't gotten to anything saying the Challenge phase ended, so there is a very strong argument that it is currently the Challenge phase and the Plot phase at the same time - and I could continue triggering "Challenge" actions until we do reach an actual "end of the phase" FAW. Also, since we haven't reached an "end of round" FAW, what happens to things like the draw cap or Fury of the Dragon? Do those effectively last for two rounds? And this says nothing of things that are specified to happen at the end of a specific phase - like moving an Epic event to the discard pile? Those certainly wouldn't happen during the next "end of phase" FAW, unless it also met the specific restrictions on the card.

See how fast it gets really messy without the clarification that each intervening "end of..." FAW is considered to take place between triggering Rhaegar and the beginning of the next round/plot phase?

Going back to what Bomb said, if I play a response to Rhaegar (or passives trigger) in what phase do they trigger? Do all of the "end of phase" actions happen immediately at the resolution of Rhaegar's effect or do they get tacked on at the end of phase 6? Basically, if I respond to Rhaegar's death am I responding in the plot phase or the challenges phase? This actually is significant if a card like Forgotten Plans (Forgotten Plans on a Fortified Position for example) is in play, so there's actually potential it could come up in a real game.

First, you aren't going to be able to trigger a Response to (or after) Rhaegar. Triggering his Response immediately ends the current window, phase, and round. The only thing that happens before the beginning of the next plot phase is the "end of phase" FAWs, during which, of course, you cannot trigger any Responses. The only thing that can happen between triggering Rhaegar and starting the next plot phase is "at the end of X phase" passive effects.

The FAWs essentially happen in order. For example, if Rhaegar dies in the Marshalling phase, you immediately end the window he was killed in (meaning, move moribund cards to their out-of-play destinations), then you got through, 1) "end-of-phase":Challenges, 2) "end-of-phase":Dominance, 3)"end-of-phase":Epic (if applicable), 4) "end-of-phase":Standing, 5) "end-of-phase":Taxation (which ends the round). You then proceed to the beginning of the next plot phase. All of this simply takes place in the current round as clean-up to resolving Rhaegar's effect.

Remember, Rhaegar's effect ends the round. Running through the separate "end of phase" FAWs is part of ending that round. Honestly, since Fortified Position is a constant effects that applies until it is no longer the revealed plot, and Forgotten Plans is a constant effect that applies as long as it is revealed - and you aren't between a "begin plot phase" and "end plot phase" FAW - I'm not sure what actual potential there is for them to make anything weird happen with Rhaegar.

If Rhaeger died in the Marshalling phase, you'd go trough "end-of-phase, Marshalling" before "end-of-phase, Challenges". This looks like an oversight.

Yeah. Sorry. That's a typo.

For reference:

"(v1.0) Rhaegar Targaryen F82
When the round is brought to an end by Rhaegar's ability, the current phase and all phases remaining in the round are also considered to end. If the round ends during a challenge, that challenge ends without resolution."

So what I said about responses not being triggerable was correct I take it? And what Bomb said is covered by the fact that Moribund cards leave play because there is a Step 6 in the End of Phase FWA? Essentially there is no Step 6 for Rhaegar's FWA, but the End of Phase FWA takes care of all Moribund cards?

Rhaegar's errata should likely be changed to "The current action window immediately goes to Step 6. Skip all non-End of Phase action windows for the remainder of this round." I think that text would be correct?

Edit: As to the plot significance, if it was in fact the plot phase Forgotten Plans would no longer blank Fortified Position and Foritified position would blank characters. So TRV would suddenly be killable from a Die by the Sword played during the action window that Rhaegar died if the FWA wrapped around into the plot phase.

So what I said about responses not being triggerable was correct I take it? And what Bomb said is covered by the fact that Moribund cards leave play because there is a Step 6 in the End of Phase FWA? Essentially there is no Step 6 for Rhaegar's FWA, but the End of Phase FWA takes care of all Moribund cards?

You can think of the mechanics for the window in which Rhaegar was killed any way you want. The practical result is all the same - once Rhaegar resolves, no more triggered effects of any kind until the next plot phase begins. It makes far more sense to assume the window in which Rhaegar was killed ends immediately (i.e., skips to the Step 6 for that action window) based on the text of the card and the fact that the round ending is not a FAW or framework event of its own, but rather a result of moving on to the next plot phase as a result of ending the last action window of the preceding phase. But I don't think it's worth the discussion because the outcome is the same.

Edit: As to the plot significance, if it was in fact the plot phase Forgotten Plans would no longer blank Fortified Position and Foritified position would blank characters. So TRV would suddenly be killable from a Die by the Sword played during the action window that Rhaegar died if the FWA wrapped around into the plot phase.

Yeah, I get that. I just don't see a reasonable argument that when the FAQ says all of the remaining "end phase" FAWs between resolving Rhaegar and beginning the next plot phase are considered to take place, those "end of phase" FAWs somehow take place after the "begin plot phase" FAW they are supposed to precede. And if you haven't reached the "begin plot phase" FAW, why would Forgotten Plans stop blanking out other plot text?