That post from ThenDoctor is basically him denying he's telling people to shut up, followed by him telling people to shut up.

It's ThenDoctor basically telling a certain subset of people to shut up. He's not focusing on some people just because of them having a negative opinion, it's fair to have a negative opinion.

It's kind of hard to discuss anything at all when people come in and start trying to silence the conversation.

Not everyone likes DH2. Some do like it, but think it could be better. Yes, these discussions will go over the same points repeatedly, but y'know what? That's fine. That's the nature if online forum discussions. There's nothing wrong with people coming in to a thread about a review of a product and giving their opinion on it. The only problem posters here are those that are trying to end the discussion.

If you like the new edition, say so, counter the arguments of those that don't, support the positions of those who feel as you do. Don't come in to the thread and attack people who don't like the game and tell them to shut up just because they disagree with you.

The thing is, that's been happening since DH2.0 came about, only at that time it was reversed. Those that didn't like the original beta were told to shut up, were told to stop complaining, were told to stop whining and to just accept the new game. Then, when the second beta came around, those same people who were telling people to shut up and accept the change were suddenly on the other side of that change, and they're here complaining about it (still - the game is out!!!).

I just have trouble accepting that kind of hypocrisy.

BYE

It's kind of hard to discuss anything at all when people come in and start trying to silence the conversation.

Not everyone likes DH2. Some do like it, but think it could be better. Yes, these discussions will go over the same points repeatedly, but y'know what? That's fine. That's the nature if online forum discussions. There's nothing wrong with people coming in to a thread about a review of a product and giving their opinion on it. The only problem posters here are those that are trying to end the discussion.

If you like the new edition, say so, counter the arguments of those that don't, support the positions of those who feel as you do. Don't come in to the thread and attack people who don't like the game and tell them to shut up just because they disagree with you.

The thing is, that's been happening since DH2.0 came about, only at that time it was reversed. Those that didn't like the original beta were told to shut up, were told to stop complaining, were told to stop whining and to just accept the new game. Then, when the second beta came around, those same people who were telling people to shut up and accept the change were suddenly on the other side of that change, and they're here complaining about it (still - the game is out!!!).

I just have trouble accepting that kind of hypocrisy.

BYE

It wasn't ok then, it isn't ok now.

It wasn't ok then, it isn't ok now.

Well, how convenient.

I went through the old beta forums (I wasn't part of the beta). Apparently you were part of the beta as well macd21. I get the impression that this whole (sided) discussion is a LOT older than the 3 threads we've had the last 2-3 months. The review seems to be an excuse to bring it all up again.

It's kind of hard to discuss anything at all when people come in and start trying to silence the conversation.

Not everyone likes DH2. Some do like it, but think it could be better. Yes, these discussions will go over the same points repeatedly, but y'know what? That's fine. That's the nature if online forum discussions. There's nothing wrong with people coming in to a thread about a review of a product and giving their opinion on it. The only problem posters here are those that are trying to end the discussion.

If you like the new edition, say so, counter the arguments of those that don't, support the positions of those who feel as you do. Don't come in to the thread and attack people who don't like the game and tell them to shut up just because they disagree with you.

The thing is, that's been happening since DH2.0 came about, only at that time it was reversed. Those that didn't like the original beta were told to shut up, were told to stop complaining, were told to stop whining and to just accept the new game. Then, when the second beta came around, those same people who were telling people to shut up and accept the change were suddenly on the other side of that change, and they're here complaining about it (still - the game is out!!!).

I just have trouble accepting that kind of hypocrisy.

BYE

That is not the same thing. In the original beta, there were a lot of people who didn't seem to realize DH2 was a new game and couldn't stop comparing it to how things worked in the old game - basically anything different was bad (unless it could be backported to older games but that's another story). Telling those people, hey, no, weapon pen values are different because they completely reworked the wound system fell on deaf ears. Originally, the focus was on bettering the new system and there were a lot of people who couldn't accept DH2b wasn't DH1.

Now, those same people are saying, cool we got the system we wanted. Those other people with their scary new system can **** off.

Don't equate challenging the status quo with "I love the status quo and those whingers can **** off"

Don't equate challenging the status quo with "I love the status quo and those whingers can **** off"

Not every complaint about the first beta was just a knee-jerk reaction to things being new and different. A reasonable amount of compatibility with existing materials was an important factor for a number of people, and I don't think that's any less valid than any of the benefits which the first beta would have brought. Likewise, there were people who hated the new wound system because they thought it was a tedious, ponderous, game-slowing pile of garbage; not "just because it wasn't like it was before".

Don't equate challenging the status quo with "I love the status quo and those whingers can **** off"

Not every complaint about the first beta was just a knee-jerk reaction to things being new and different. A reasonable amount of compatibility with existing materials was an important factor for a number of people, and I don't think that's any less valid than any of the benefits which the first beta would have brought. Likewise, there were people who hated the new wound system because they thought it was a tedious, ponderous, game-slowing pile of garbage; not "just because it wasn't like it was before".

The compatibility issue has always been funny to me, because none of the lines are truly "compatible" with each other unless GM's like throwing around unbalanced equipment and NPCs at the players. No one has been able to convert characters with much success. You can use old adventures, although they're technically outside of the game's setting, and the weapon and NPC stats are going to be different. Nothing about the first beta was significantly less compatible with old systems than the final DH release beyond weapon statistics.

That is not the same thing. In the original beta, there were a lot of people who didn't seem to realize DH2 was a new game and couldn't stop comparing it to how things worked in the old game - basically anything different was bad (unless it could be backported to older games but that's another story). Telling those people, hey, no, weapon pen values are different because they completely reworked the wound system fell on deaf ears. Originally, the focus was on bettering the new system and there were a lot of people who couldn't accept DH2b wasn't DH1.

Now, those same people are saying, cool we got the system we wanted. Those other people with their scary new system can **** off.

Don't equate challenging the status quo with "I love the status quo and those whingers can **** off"

What you're saying boils down to "it's different, because we were right and they are wrong".

That is not the same thing. In the original beta, there were a lot of people who didn't seem to realize DH2 was a new game and couldn't stop comparing it to how things worked in the old game - basically anything different was bad (unless it could be backported to older games but that's another story). Telling those people, hey, no, weapon pen values are different because they completely reworked the wound system fell on deaf ears. Originally, the focus was on bettering the new system and there were a lot of people who couldn't accept DH2b wasn't DH1.

Now, those same people are saying, cool we got the system we wanted. Those other people with their scary new system can **** off.

Don't equate challenging the status quo with "I love the status quo and those whingers can **** off"

What you're saying boils down to "it's different, because we were right and they are wrong".

Yes. Thank you.

But you do realize you are actually wrong, right?

Not possible.

Can we please just stop complaining about complaining? If you don't want to read complaints go post in threads without complaints.

Dark Heresy: Second Edition

In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium there is only complaining about complaining about complaining.

I would get to work making Dark Heresy: WFRP 3rd Edition if I knew how to edit the appearance of the card-maker someone put out for it.

Yeah, I wish I understood why they put in the cards. It's like the special dice thing, it always just turns me off to a system too.

To the rest of you:

Still not entirely sure where I've been trying to silence people, but whatever I'll just let you guys do as you will and go on about my day complaining about complainers complaining about my complaining about their complaining about something that's essentially the subatomic particles that once constituted a horse.

I would get to work making Dark Heresy: WFRP 3rd Edition if I knew how to edit the appearance of the card-maker someone put out for it.

Yeah, I wish I understood why they put in the cards. It's like the special dice thing, it always just turns me off to a system too.

Do you want an actual explanation for having the cards/special dice?

Edit:

Pros of Cards:

-Rules are all out on the table and minimize book-keeping

-Can have a LARGE variety of attacks and abilities available to players without having to write down complicated rules/reference them from a book

-Having visual reference in front of you with icons/colors/symbols allows extra detail to be added without overloading the game

-All of the above allows for gameplay-based tactical choices within the encounter itself rather than all the strategy taking place beforehand in talent/equipment selection.

Cons:

-Cards make online play/paperless play very difficult

-Cards are arguably more distracting from the story than all of the mechanics used in more traditional games (I don't buy this argument, though)

-Cards clutter up the table

-Many of the cards are ways for the GM to screw over the players, and make it easier to pile on negative effects without losing track of them.

Pros of Special Dice:

-The WFRP dice work on a design style of "tell a story by rolling the dice" rather than "react to the story by rolling dice." This is not a pro, but it is part of the design difference. In addition, the dice are meant to have the game itself create stories rather than just being a resolution mechanic.

-The dice include both a resource mechanic with players deciding how to use the results of their rolls, and a story-telling mechanic that encourages players to come up with narratives for their dice results.

-Resolution works on multiple axes rather than just success/failure, making for more interesting roll consequences

-The nature of the dice allows for creative uses of dicepool generation and result interpretation. Different kinds of dice can mean different resources/abilities applying to a roll/the roll's result.

Cons:

-You have to buy the dice specially from FFG or a reseller, and they're somewhat pricy.

-Some people think the dice are weird/funny and see no irony in making this statement while owning a bag of dice that 90% + of the world doesn't know even exist.

-There is a small (within the course of one session or less) learning curve for interpreting the dice

I was also in the camp of being put off by dice with funny symbols until I played Edge of the Empire (the later evolution of the WHFRP3e system) and let me tell you, it's way, way better. Total convert. Rolling in EotE feels way more exciting than d100.

Cons:

-You have to buy the dice specially from FFG or a reseller, and they're somewhat pricy.

Well I didn't really ask for it, but thanks I guess.

That con is what really turns me off of it. Aren't the cards only sold by them as well generally?

Cons:

-You have to buy the dice specially from FFG or a reseller, and they're somewhat pricy.

Well I didn't really ask for it, but thanks I guess.

That con is what really turns me off of it. Aren't the cards only sold by them as well generally?

If it sways you at all there's also an app that can roll any number of dice that costs $1. It lets you save rolls, too, so you can quickly roll common things.

Cards I have no idea. Printing cards isn't too hard if you have a printer that can print on card stock.

If it sways you at all there's also an app that can roll any number of dice that costs $1. It lets you save rolls, too, so you can quickly roll common things.

Cards I have no idea. Printing cards isn't too hard if you have a printer that can print on card stock.

It's the business ideology of making special dice that only your business really sells rather than the price that turns me away from such systems. Ended up having the same discussion in The End of the World forum before it was stated that there wasn't proprietary dice being used in the system (just uses d6s for positive and negative modifiers on tests).

My main gripe with using novelty dice is thus: should I lose a couple of my magical pictogram Star Wars dice ten years from now, will I be able to buy a new set at a reasonable price? Because I know if my whole dice collection spontaneously combusts, I can resume playing Dark Heresy with a visit to a local hobby store and about three-four bucks spent.

My second biggest gripe with novelty dice is that I'm not a big fan of dice pools, they tend to waste a lot of time, and having to compose them out of several different types of dice, some of those strictly upon GM's whim, is bound to be even slower.

My lesser gripe with novelty dice is this subconscious feeling the game takes me for a troglodyte who can't be trusted to handle numbers like a grown man.

Cons:

-You have to buy the dice specially from FFG or a reseller, and they're somewhat pricy.

Well I didn't really ask for it, but thanks I guess.

That con is what really turns me off of it. Aren't the cards only sold by them as well generally?

The cards are only sold by FFG in the same way that only FFG prints material with new talents for the 40K lines. FFG has made no attempt to quash people making their own cards (there's a program you can download that allows you to do so). It's similar to buying a board game in terms of parts. Yes, it's different from a lot of RPGs that only exist in book form, but it's not an unheard of model in the tabletop industry (after all, roleplaying games evolved in part from board games). Up to you if you find it objectionable to put into an rpg, but the pros I listed are all reasons to do cards beyond just trying to make you buy more stuff. I've got to say that having played it, I wish more games had rules aids all printed out for me.

You should give it a try. They even put out a version of the game that let you just use the books and the dice (but doesn't include expansions that came out after).

My main gripe with using novelty dice is thus: should I lose a couple of my magical pictogram Star Wars dice ten years from now, will I be able to buy a new set at a reasonable price? Because I know if my whole dice collection spontaneously combusts, I can resume playing Dark Heresy with a visit to a local hobby store and about three-four bucks spent.

My second biggest gripe with novelty dice is that I'm not a big fan of dice pools, they tend to waste a lot of time, and having to compose them out of several different types of dice, some of those strictly upon GM's whim, is bound to be even slower.

My lesser gripe with novelty dice is this subconscious feeling the game takes me for a troglodyte who can't be trusted to handle numbers like a grown man.

Again, the dice are basically the same as if you bought a board game. I own several expensive board games that I bought over ten years ago with special dice/bits that I've kept intact and that I wasn't worried about the company screwing me if I lost a piece.

If you somehow lose the dice and the game is out of print (which wfrp3 now is), you're going to be limited to eBay or other resellers. You could also make your own dice either through 3D printing, blank dice and a marker/labels, or using the phone app or free online dice rollers. Inconvenient, but no Moreso than losing an important piece from a board game.

As far as composing dice pools go, it actually moves pretty quickly. Players start out knowing their attributes, skills, and special bonuses. The GM will say difficulty (unless the player uses an action card, which tells him the difficulty to start with), and then GM and player discuss/add any situational modifiers. Compare to Dark Heresy where the player starts with a target number based on attribute and skill, GM has them subtract difficulty, and the two will subtract or add situational modifiers. In my experience, the time spent dynamically adding and subtracting from the target number is similar to the time spent picking up extra dice. It takes longer to work out the results of a dice pool like WFRP, but the time difference is a few seconds, with a little experience. That and looking up whether your roll went well or not is actually pretty fun, at least IMO. Also, I'm not sure why you mention modifiers being at the DM's whim, because the same thing applies to ANY rpg, not just wfrp.

For your lesser gripe, I don't know what to tell you. Do you think a computer is treating you like an idiot because you can just click and type to post rather than having to code everything in binary? You still have to do basic math in wfrp and the new Star Wars when figuring out results. I think your mental standing would be put into question more by "methinks thou doth protest too much" than more intuitive game design.

Having played both systems, EotE's dice pool system is both faster and more interesting than d100. And by interesting I do mean interesting - players and the GM are both invested and can modify the pool. Players know what dice to use for their abilities and GM sets the difficulty dice, and both can add situational dice. You can one-up each other if that's your thing, spending resources to make it easier/harder.

For the "I'm a big boy and can handle maths" thing I don't really know what to tell you. The company isn't trying to insult you by putting out games with pictorial dice.

My lesser gripe with novelty dice is this subconscious feeling the game takes me for a troglodyte who can't be trusted to handle numbers like a grown man.

It gets easier when you remember that the numbers are essentially irrelevant compared to the results they produce - because it's more important for a game to produce outcomes that "feel" right based on what's being attempted (subject to variations for genre, game style, and player preference) than it is for the numbers to be exactly correct.

Semi-related question...

If I understand correctly (and perhaps I don't), Edge of the Empire and WFRP3rd ran on very similar systems. Does anyone have any insight as to why the former has been so successful and the latter was shelved after a 5 year run?

Don't equate challenging the status quo with "I love the status quo and those whingers can **** off"

Not every complaint about the first beta was just a knee-jerk reaction to things being new and different. A reasonable amount of compatibility with existing materials was an important factor for a number of people, and I don't think that's any less valid than any of the benefits which the first beta would have brought. Likewise, there were people who hated the new wound system because they thought it was a tedious, ponderous, game-slowing pile of garbage; not "just because it wasn't like it was before".

The compatibility issue has always been funny to me, because none of the lines are truly "compatible" with each other unless GM's like throwing around unbalanced equipment and NPCs at the players. No one has been able to convert characters with much success. You can use old adventures, although they're technically outside of the game's setting, and the weapon and NPC stats are going to be different. Nothing about the first beta was significantly less compatible with old systems than the final DH release beyond weapon statistics.

It's notbas umbalanced as you think. From my experience, balance-wise at least, high-end DH fits fits right into RT and mid-end RT fits right into Dw (marines are weaker than you'd expect).

I do agree that lunes are way less compatible than they seem. Just try tracking a heavy bolter stats through them, don't even get me started on vehucles and characters are hopeless. Gear without equivalents is fine though (like playing RT with the DW Tau stuff) and so are NPCs.

Semi-related question...

If I understand correctly (and perhaps I don't), Edge of the Empire and WFRP3rd ran on very similar systems. Does anyone have any insight as to why the former has been so successful and the latter was shelved after a 5 year run?

Warhammer Fantasy as a property is even more niche than 40K is, with a smaller fanbase. That fanbase is largely composed of older gamers and people who come from the wargame. People who are long time fans of the wargame are predisposed to be married to outdated/outright bad mechanics from the wargame. You have a primary fanbase of older fans who tend to be conservative in their gaming preferences. In other words, the kind of people who put up with the warhammer game for a long time either LIKE having mechanics not really improve that much, or HATE the idea of having to learn a whole new system.

So WFRP comes out as this experimental game using a setting that is old as dirt by rpg terms and doesn't really have much broad appeal for attracting new fans. Most of the old fans hated the entirely new mechanics for being new, for being too much like a boardgame, and for replacing second edition WFRP. This was compounded by FFG acquiring the license to WFRP, releasing one second edition supplement, then canceling it for a new game. People felt that this was FFG kneecapping the old system they liked. So now you have a setting that is only attractive to older gamers, who in turn mostly just want the mechanics they're used to. FFG has no luck getting a new crowd in because the setting has no broad appeal to draw people in and the idea of playing an rpg for its mechanics more than it's setting is even now a really novel thing for most people.

FFG, hearing all of the complaints about the bits for the game, had up to a point released a core set, magic supplement, religion supplement, and an extra careers supplement. There was gnashing of teeth over these supplements containing rules for disease and corruption (as well as bits for these rules) that people thoight should have been in the core set. They then released a set of Guides and Vaults (players, gamemasters, creatures). The players and game masters guides contained all of te rules from the core set, rewritten to be better organized, with a few scattered changes. They also contained rules for playing the game without all of the extra bits, including some (but not all) of the new mechanics and careers released by supplements up to that point. The players and GMs vaults contained most (but not quite all) of the bits that were included in the original core set. Bought individually, neither vault could play the game on its own. The creatures vault and guide both contained almost completely new material and bits. So suddenly players have the choice of buying a core box and being able to play, but missing disease an corruption rules. Players could buy a players vault an guide and have half the rules and bits unless they also got a GMs vault and guide. Or players could play without the bits at all using just the players and GMs guide and by buying a set of dice. In addition, only the core set by itself had enough dice to really support play with 3 players at once. So you end up with a confusing array of options for the consumer. Now the game is still not appealing to people who hate the bits (I don't know of anyone who plays the version without bits) and it's also hard for new players to know what to buy.

In spite of this, WFRP actually seemed to sell pretty well. http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/125034-best-selling-games-2004-2014/

But maybe it didn't sell enough to justify production or maybe the confusing vaults and guides killed it (players also felt mad that so much of what they already bought was being repackaged). WFRP also did not lend itself well to PDF and it's PDFs were poorly implemented, both running poorly, not working on iPads, and not including the cards (which contained important rules!) for supplements. Other than te guides, the only reason to buy a wfrp PDF was if you already owned the physical product and wanted a digital copy of the book.

So what did Star Wars do better? First, it uses a setting that is many times more popular and well known. The people who would play a Star Wars game are going to be much more diverse and more likely to be open to new mechanics. Star Wars had an amazing beginners box that gives great instructions on how to play. The game doesn't require any bits other than the dice, although I personally don't think this is te reason for its success. Star Wars also didn't had the bad luck of being seen as the reason the previous iteration of the rpg was cancelled.

Really, though, the key points are that Star Wars is a much more popular setting an more likely to attract gamers interested in different mechanics, and that WFRP completely confused and irritated potential customers by rereleasing itself as guides and vaults.

The thing is, I don't even think Star Wars is the better game. Probability issues with the dice that existed in wfrp are smoothed over more in Star Wars. The books are a bit better organized an the beginners set is amazing. Star Wars suffers from having very boring character progression, a pretty crappy implementation of the force and the loss of a lot of depth that wfrp had due to its bits. This is one of those rare times where I'll say that simplifying parts of a system actually made it worse. Basically, the system in Star Wars makes for great narratives, similar to the Fate system. The problem is that the game part of gameplay is worse due to the lack of tactical options. It once again skews toward all the strategy for an encounter being done in preparation rather than during it.