And there is no reason for you to continue to silence others. Pretend everything is fine in the short, relatively unpopular threads where people are not proclaiming that DH2e is not worth their money.

And there is no reason for you to continue to silence others. Pretend everything is fine in the short, relatively unpopular threads where people are not proclaiming that DH2e is not worth their money.

Absolutely haven't been doing anything of the sort. DH2 has it's flaws, the beta did as well. Also short? 25 pages is not short.

You've been telling people to shut up. That is as close as one with no authority can come to silencing others in a public forum.

My point was that the threads which deal with the Second Edition being an utter disappointment are by far the most popular ones on the Second Edition boards. If you think that these people are a vocal minority, ignore them, they'll exhaust themselves. If you think that they're a sizable parity of the community and you just want them to stop talking, then I don't find your position very helpful for the directionof the community.

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

It would only be unreasonable if one was somehow forced to read their posts. It should be far easier to make yourself ignore them than to try to force them to stop.

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

Complaining about it now might reduce the chance of similar stuff happening in the future ti be entirely fair.

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

Complaining about it now might reduce the chance of similar stuff happening in the future ti be entirely fair.

I dunno about you but if I were to be a developer, and some people are using nothing but nonconstructive whining, I'd personally just ignore them.

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

Complaining about it now might reduce the chance of similar stuff happening in the future ti be entirely fair.

I dunno about you but if I were to be a developer, and some people are using nothing but nonconstructive whining, I'd personally just ignore them.

If it's 1-2 people sure, but there's always a chance any kind of whining will catch on and become so widespread it can't really be ignored and/or will affect your image with the consumers fir a long time. Look at the d&d '4e is wow-ish' mantra for example. About as constructive as 'DH2 sucks because is copy-pasta Only War'.

You've been telling people to shut up.

I've been doing no such thing, I've been telling them to take it elsewhere. This was a thread about the book released not the beta that almost was. While the review mentioned a few things from the beta it wasn't the focus of it, and the thread obviously wasn't meant to devolve into people again trying to fix the beta they wanted.

The closest I can see I've come to telling people to "shut up" about it is saying that I'm done with their "mourning" over the 2nd edition and that they should move on or fix it themselves.

I don't have an issue with people having criticisms with the system, although at this point it isn't really criticism so much as complaining about the smallest thing that isn't really an issue. Many instances of that has happened. Hijacking every single thread, I'm exaggerating here, to complain that 2nd edition isn't like the beta and it's not the special little snowflake they wanted because this one rule isn't what they wanted is useless, aggravating, and frustrating. To me at least.

Dear God-Emperor, this particular dead horse has been beaten so far it's disintegrated, and yet people are still kicking the faint pink mist in the air.

Dear God-Emperor, this particular dead horse has been beaten so far it's disintegrated, and yet people are still kicking the faint pink mist in the air.

Not if Papa has anything to say about it.

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

It would only be unreasonable if one was somehow forced to read their posts. It should be far easier to make yourself ignore them than to try to force them to stop.

It's fairly unreasonable that the extent of the complaints is more or less along these lines: "Oh, they had a chance to improve this system but chose to spit in the faces of the customer base!". Not really productive, subjective-statements that mean very little to a developer. No one really goes into great details -why- the 1-3 different things in the first draft of the beta were better than their predesuccessors or go into great length on the comparative benefits or failings.

It's just a lot of hopla over spilled milk. The mechanics weren't really that different -anyway- other than the wound system, which was absurdly tedious in the book-keeping department (in my personal opinion). Action points were just a numerical way of handling the existing system, which did allow a bit more breadth to choice but it wasn't this completely innovative concept that renovated the combat of pen and paper rules.

Was it worth exploring? Absolutely. Is it worth trying to rabble rouse past it's death? Absolutley not. Backwards compatibility won out over a complete overhaul. :: shrugs ::

There are plenty of great improvements to Dark Heresy 1st edition, and it's not perfect, but still pretty awesome.

No one really goes into great details -why- the 1-3 different things in the first draft of the beta were better than their predesuccessors or go into great length on the comparative benefits or failings.

People did this in the Beta forum plenty of times. That's where I know that the 1.0 Beta is easy to fix.

It's fairly unreasonable that the extent of the complaints is more or less along these lines: "Oh, they had a chance to improve this system but chose to spit in the faces of the customer base!".

It's just a lot of hopla over spilled milk.

Are you guys f-ing kidding me? There have been a lot of great posts explaining, in detail, with math and all, problems that existed in from DH1 all the way through OW that FFG could have fixed in DH2 but didn't. There were marked improvements in the original beta that got thrown out along with the bad parts. To characterize the dissatisfaction expressed here as hyperbolic whinging is a bald-faced lie.

As for those complaining that people are using very general threads with no real topic (or topics answered in the first half dozen posts) to discuss (complain about) the game in general - looking at you ThenDoctor - what, exactly, would you have us discuss? There's not a whole lot to talk about, and if there was there'd be more threads. Your 'take it somewhere else' crap is a silencing tactic, nothing more.

I'll also point out that the last 2 pages of this thread are glutted with people complaining about people complaining about the game. Which one is off topic, again?

Are you guys f-ing kidding me? There have been a lot of great posts explaining, in detail, with math and all, problems that existed in from DH1 all the way through OW that FFG could have fixed in DH2 but didn't. There were marked improvements in the original beta that got thrown out along with the bad parts. To characterize the dissatisfaction expressed here as hyperbolic whinging is a bald-faced lie.

I should have clarified. My last post was referring largely to the remnent complainers who are currently posting now their dissatisfaction. During the Beta process, there were some good posts in favor of the changes (subjectively), math and all. I know of Gaunt Zero, Nimsims, and Ezra Kainus efforts to capatalize on the development of those changes.

No, what is going on NOW is pretty much hyperbolic whinging. Problem with the changes, and views on them, were largely subjective to varying opinions. All the math done to prove one side or another was fairly meaningless - a sound, detailed account of how the changes were mathametically better didn't sit well with the larger audience.

:: shrugs ::

The OP of this thread is a link to a review of DH2 replete with statements that could be interpreted as complaints about the new system. The discussion that followed was flavors of "he has a point" or "he is wrong on this point".

If this is not the thread to discuss complaints of the system, where the **** is? If you don't want to discuss the review of DH2 (again, thendoctor), maybe go start your own thread for whatever it is you do want to talk about and stop crap-posting complaints about people complaining.

a sound, detailed account of how the changes were mathametically better didn't sit well with the larger audience.

I think this right here says a lot about the "larger audience."

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, and I haven't wanted to comment, but:

At the end of the day, we're all going to be playing Dark Heresy, using whichever ruleset that we like (Hell, I ran a Gumshoe Dark Heresy that was a lot of fun). The existence of a rulebook is not going to make us hate Dark Heresy, as a concept. So let's just focus on what a cool concept Dark Heresy is and proceed from there. It's perfectly fine if we throw out (or keep) the latest rulebook because with the existence of a second edition, it's proven firmly that Dark Heresy is not a singular rulebook. It's Inquisitors being badass in space- something which numerous fan conversions of other systems have noted and have titled their games respectively- "FATE: Dark Heresy", "Savage Heresy" or some other variant.

I'm not saying that discussing the shortcomings of second edition is a moot point because criticism is its own bizarre form of love and FFG kinda needs that for their future as a game company. All I'm saying is: After all these years, Dark Heresy is still ******* cool.

I know this is incredibly sentimental, but I don't really know what else to say.

My final word on this for the time being is that FFG has made it apparent they listen to complaints and sales numbers. How unreasonable is it to complain loudly and often, in that context?

very unreasonable. Listening to legitimate complaints does not equate to a permission to allow unreasonable complainers to balk loudly and incessantly about something that can't be changed at this point. =/

It would only be unreasonable if one was somehow forced to read their posts. It should be far easier to make yourself ignore them than to try to force them to stop.

It's fairly unreasonable that the extent of the complaints is more or less along these lines: "Oh, they had a chance to improve this system but chose to spit in the faces of the customer base!". Not really productive, subjective-statements that mean very little to a developer. No one really goes into great details -why- the 1-3 different things in the first draft of the beta were better than their predesuccessors or go into great length on the comparative benefits or failings.

It's just a lot of hopla over spilled milk. The mechanics weren't really that different -anyway- other than the wound system, which was absurdly tedious in the book-keeping department (in my personal opinion). Action points were just a numerical way of handling the existing system, which did allow a bit more breadth to choice but it wasn't this completely innovative concept that renovated the combat of pen and paper rules.

Was it worth exploring? Absolutely. Is it worth trying to rabble rouse past it's death? Absolutley not. Backwards compatibility won out over a complete overhaul. :: shrugs ::

There are plenty of great improvements to Dark Heresy 1st edition, and it's not perfect, but still pretty awesome.

From what I recall (it's been a while since I compared the two) one of the biggest disappointments from the second beta was backpedaling the progress on the skill system (consolidating the lore skills, consolidating other skills, codifying characteristic substitution). The wound system was an attempt to make combat more gritty that should have been improved or replaced rather than backpedalled. The entire narrative chapter had zero revision or improvements done to it from beta, in spite of its issues. The action point system was fairly nice, although combat in general required too much book-keeping.

I think the greater complaint over beta 1 to beta 2/DH2 is that it went from trying to actually fix old problems with the system to just copying and pasting Only War without much thought into how that system would actually fit the setting. For being such a specific setting with a specific playstyle, Dark Heresy continues to not enforce that playstyle at all.

And yeah, ThenDoctor just likes to whine a lot. He would be best served by ignoring people rather than continuing a conversation if he wants it to end and other people would best be served by not responding to him when he's whining about people reviewing the game in the "review of the game" thread.

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, and I haven't wanted to comment, but:

At the end of the day, we're all going to be playing Dark Heresy, using whichever ruleset that we like (Hell, I ran a Gumshoe Dark Heresy that was a lot of fun). The existence of a rulebook is not going to make us hate Dark Heresy, as a concept. So let's just focus on what a cool concept Dark Heresy is and proceed from there. It's perfectly fine if we throw out (or keep) the latest rulebook because with the existence of a second edition, it's proven firmly that Dark Heresy is not a rulebook. It's Inquisitors being badass in space- something which numerous fan conversions of other games have noted and have titled their games respectively- "FATE: Dark Heresy", "Savage Heresy" or some other variant.

I'm not saying that discussing the shortcomings of second edition is a moot point because criticism is its own bizarre form of love and FFG kinda needs that for their future as a game company. All I'm saying is: Dark Heresy is still ******* cool.

I know this is incredibly sentimental, but I don't really know what else to say.

I would get to work making Dark Heresy: WFRP 3rd Edition if I knew how to edit the appearance of the card-maker someone put out for it.

Are you guys f-ing kidding me? There have been a lot of great posts explaining, in detail, with math and all, problems that existed in from DH1 all the way through OW that FFG could have fixed in DH2 but didn't. There were marked improvements in the original beta that got thrown out along with the bad parts. To characterize the dissatisfaction expressed here as hyperbolic whinging is a bald-faced lie.

It's true, there have been exceptions, but that's a minority of the posts that we've seen (Between 5% and 10%).

I believe he said that we're circling. Everything has been mentioned so there is no point in bringing the same things up again and again. When somebody dares to oppose what has been said, then we just start to circle over and over. People simply disagree, so let's just agree to disagree?

The OP of this thread is a link to a review of DH2 replete with statements that could be interpreted as complaints about the new system. The discussion that followed was flavors of "he has a point" or "he is wrong on this point".

If this is not the thread to discuss complaints of the system, where the **** is? If you don't want to discuss the review of DH2 (again, thendoctor), maybe go start your own thread for whatever it is you do want to talk about and stop crap-posting complaints about people complaining.

a sound, detailed account of how the changes were mathametically better didn't sit well with the larger audience.

I think this right here says a lot about the "larger audience."

It's funny that you're doing the exact same thing right now. You had 3 threads to complain, what more do you want? Discuss the review? Come up with something new then to discuss about the review without resolving to topics that have been discussed to death already by the same group of posters.

The OP of this thread is a link to a review of DH2 replete with statements that could be interpreted as complaints about the new system. The discussion that followed was flavors of "he has a point" or "he is wrong on this point".

If this is not the thread to discuss complaints of the system, where the **** is? If you don't want to discuss the review of DH2 (again, thendoctor), maybe go start your own thread for whatever it is you do want to talk about and stop crap-posting complaints about people complaining.

a sound, detailed account of how the changes were mathametically better didn't sit well with the larger audience.

I think this right here says a lot about the "larger audience."

It's funny that you're doing the exact same thing right now. You had 3 threads to complain, what more do you want? Discuss the review? Come up with something new then to discuss about the review without resolving to topics that have been discussed to death already by the same group of posters.

The OP of this thread is a link to a review of DH2 replete with statements that could be interpreted as complaints about the new system. The discussion that followed was flavors of "he has a point" or "he is wrong on this point".

If this is not the thread to discuss complaints of the system, where the **** is? If you don't want to discuss the review of DH2 (again, thendoctor), maybe go start your own thread for whatever it is you do want to talk about and stop crap-posting complaints about people complaining.

a sound, detailed account of how the changes were mathametically better didn't sit well with the larger audience.

I think this right here says a lot about the "larger audience."

It's funny that you're doing the exact same thing right now. You had 3 threads to complain, what more do you want? Discuss the review? Come up with something new then to discuss about the review without resolving to topics that have been discussed to death already by the same group of posters.

It's kind of hard to discuss anything at all when people come in and start trying to silence the conversation.

Not everyone likes DH2. Some do like it, but think it could be better. Yes, these discussions will go over the same points repeatedly, but y'know what? That's fine. That's the nature if online forum discussions. There's nothing wrong with people coming in to a thread about a review of a product and giving their opinion on it. The only problem posters here are those that are trying to end the discussion.

If you like the new edition, say so, counter the arguments of those that don't, support the positions of those who feel as you do. Don't come in to the thread and attack people who don't like the game and tell them to shut up just because they disagree with you.

I'm fine if it's an actual discussion, especially from people like you who weren't involved so far. Feel free.

Also note that none of us are trying to silence any discussions. I'll repost what ThenDoctor said:

This has been going on for 2-3 months now spread across 3 different topics. I think we know each other's opinion by now. I apologize if we seem harsh at this point and if we somehow prevent any actual discussion from happening in relation with the review that the OP posted.

That post from ThenDoctor is basically him denying he's telling people to shut up, followed by him telling people to shut up.

This is me telling everyone to shut up and to enjoy whatever 40K game variant they fancy the most.