I always found it exciting, like a big box of presents that nobody wants.

Like I said, I don't see why you would even bring it up as a difference if those charts had already been part of DH1. If he wants to complain about them being triggered earlier than in DH1, he should have said so, but not make it sound as if they were something new.

I always found it exciting, like a big box of presents that nobody wants.

I like that wording!

Yeah, I always thought people would appreciate those charts as they are one of the unique features, and they are humorously written (if you like black humour, that is).

He wasn't. He was giving a history of the beta an talked about the isses with te first one. At no point did he claim they were a part of the final product. And having to look up a damage table for every injury IS time consuming.

Like I said, I don't see why you would even bring it up as a difference if those charts had already been part of DH1. If he wants to complain about them being triggered earlier than in DH1, he should have said so, but not make it sound as if they were something new.

I always found it exciting, like a big box of presents that nobody wants.

I like that wording!

Yeah, I always thought people would appreciate those charts as they are one of the unique features, and they are humorously written (if you like black humour, that is).

Having to trigger them for every wound IS different. I've been through dozens of gogh's where the crit table was never touched using it for every wound is dfferent. It's not a case I using them earlier, they're being used more frequently, which, ding ding, slows the game down!

Well, as suggested before, then just say that ?

With "used earlier" I was referring not to time-in-game but their role in injury mechanics (meaning, hits jumping straight into the crit table instead of a HP pool first) - see, here my wording was flawed, and look what happened.

I wonder how an in-between a la Inquisitor would work out. I really like the idea of every single hit being represented by a narrative and mechanical effect rather than "faceless" HP being shaved off, but at the same time I can see the obvious disadvantage behind the page-flipping if everything is as detailed as in DH.

Of course, an alternative would have been to print injury charts on extra sheets...

I wonder how an in-between a la Inquisitor would work out. I really like the idea of every single hit being represented by a narrative and mechanical effect rather than "faceless" HP being shaved off, but at the same time I can see the obvious disadvantage behind the page-flipping if everything is as detailed as in DH.

Of course, an alternative would have been to print injury charts on extra sheets...

In my experience, big wound effect tables aren't inconvenient if you only use them once or twice before your character dies .

In my experience, big wound effect tables aren't inconvenient if you only use them once or twice before your character dies .

Although this in itself is what I'd actually consider another flaw of the system... You have this elaborate system of detailed injuries - but never get to use it. How big are the chances of a character actually being crippled as opposed to the extremes of "healthy" or "dead"?

Otherwise, good point...

Particularly after charging people to access the beta to begin with. I find tha spectacularly cavalier.

Remember, FFG play in a lot of other people's sandboxes. This places constraints and results in some unpleasant decisions.

I'm sorry but this issue of attacking developers is nonsense.

Aside from the fact that noone actually is, if you're charging people to playtest YOUR work - and then you still put out a product that's broken complete with dreadful editing (copypasta etc), then you need broader shoulders when dealing with the people that have paid for the fnal product in that state.

That's just the way it is.

I wasn't involved in the development of Dark Heresy. This is purely my interpretation of events from an outside perspective, albeit one with experience of how the industry - and FFG in particular - work.

Dark Heresy 2nd edition is designed and developed. The not-quite-end-result is the first version of the Beta, which was released to a polarised community - some people loathed it, some people loved it. It needed work, yes... but that's the point of beta testing.

At some point during this, the outcry against the new rules was such that the decision was made to drop numerous elements of it. However, games development is time consuming and expensive, and deadlines don't go away just because you need to go back and redo some things. There wasn't the time to go back and rebuild the scrapped elements from scratch - even rewriting only a quarter of the book is a couple of months work and several thousand Dollars spent just on writing (based on FFG's standard page layouts and the higher writer's rate for their experienced writers). Failing to get the game out by GenCon is a significant problem as one of the bigger RPG publishers in what is basically a cottage industry, so time is a concern.

So the second playtest's changed material is now taken from the Only War rules - which, given that a significant portion of the community had been calling for "compatibility with previous games", seems like a reasonable decision to make. It's also a **** sight quicker and cheaper than starting from scratch. Elements of that were further changed during the second beta - the psychic power rules are now in a new iteration from where they were at the start of Beta 2, for example.

Copy-pasting... it's a surprisingly valuable technique when you're considering cross-game compatibility, because having three versions of a rule say slightly different things in three different books causes problems. I will admit to having done it, though I always endeavoured to paraphrase, and to write the text out again rather than actually using Copy-and-Paste. When you're doing discrete chunks of rules in repeated format - such as individual psychic powers, copy and pasting the format each time saves a lot of time that could be spent on content rather than structure. It's a useful tool in the right hands.

DH2 does seem rushed, yes. I won't refute that - that's my opinion of it too. But I also understand the reasons for it being in this situation - a community that was utterly divided over a set of changes, and who have remained divided after FFG chose to listen to one section of the community, because there is literally nothing that FFG could have done that would have appealed to everyone... and trying to appeal to everyone tends to mean that you fail to appeal to anyone.

What I'm still wondering about is why people stick around. Because honestly, if all you're going to do is fill threads with this same argument... what's the point?

There wasn't the time to go back and rebuild the scrapped elements from scratch - even rewriting only a quarter of the book is a couple of months work...

Couple of months ? Isn't that a little bit... excessive?

There wasn't the time to go back and rebuild the scrapped elements from scratch - even rewriting only a quarter of the book is a couple of months work...

Couple of months ? Isn't that a little bit... excessive?

Thing is, games development isn't just writing - there's a lot of work that slows down the process of putting words on the page. Not to mention that most writers I know will be juggling multiple projects or fitting in the writing alongside a full-time job (with the exception of the last couple of things I wrote for FFG, everything I did for the 40kRPGs was done in evenings and weekends around my day job) because RPG writing really doesn't pay very well. It's a labour of love.

And that's just the writing. That doesn't cover approvals and all the other things that get done to a manuscript after the writer has handed it in. A couple of months overall seems a reasonable estimate.

Only War started as a DH1 supplement, got delayed repeatedly, then spun off into a full-blown rulebook which pushed it back even further.

So given FFG's demonstrated willingness to push deadlines, why, again, did DH2 have to be rushed out the door for gencon? Why could they not spend the months to make a better product?

Oh, right. Money.

There wasn't the time to go back and rebuild the scrapped elements from scratch - even rewriting only a quarter of the book is a couple of months work...

Couple of months ? Isn't that a little bit... excessive?

That's totally within the realm of reason.

Only War started as a DH1 supplement, got delayed repeatedly, then spun off into a full-blown rulebook which pushed it back even further.

DH2 changed tack during the beta. That's late in the process.

So given FFG's demonstrated willingness to push deadlines, why, again, did DH2 have to be rushed out the door for gencon? Why could they not spend the months to make a better product?

Oh, right. Money.

The profit margins on RPG books are tiny , and because the global market for even a big RPG like D&D or 40k is tiny, print runs are small. This drives up costs-per-unit more, because you can't afford to print too many more than you need in case they don't sell and just end up costing more money to store.

GenCon is like Christmas for hobby games publishers. Getting a game out at GenCon means it sells more, it gets attention in the biggest hobby gaming event in the world (I'd say press attention, but there is almost no actual hobby games press), and it makes the company look better because they've got shiny new things to sell to the tens of thousands of people who've travelled from all over the world to be there. It's like movie studios and computer game publishers announcing their new titles at SDCC - it's the way to get a lot of good attention.

Yeah, money. Because making books is expensive, and it is only getting more expensive. Because a company is only as successful as its cash flow, and having a load of money coming in that hasn't arrived yet doesn't help if you've got bills to pay now. Because not selling the book you've spent tens of thousands of Dollars producing means that you've got copies sat in a warehouse costing you even more money, or copies sat on store shelves not selling, which makes those retailers less likely to order copies of your next book for fear of having more stock they've bought but can't sell.

The profit margins on RPG books are tiny , and because the global market for even a big RPG like D&D or 40k is tiny, print runs are small. This drives up costs-per-unit more, because you can't afford to print too many more than you need in case they don't sell and just end up costing more money to store.

GenCon is like Christmas for hobby games publishers. Getting a game out at GenCon means it sells more, it gets attention in the biggest hobby gaming event in the world (I'd say press attention, but there is almost no actual hobby games press), and it makes the company look better because they've got shiny new things to sell to the tens of thousands of people who've travelled from all over the world to be there. It's like movie studios and computer game publishers announcing their new titles at SDCC - it's the way to get a lot of good attention.

Thanks for your insights into the industry- I've enjoyed reading them.

Thanks for your insights into the industry- I've enjoyed reading them.

I spent most of my early 20s looking at how to get into RPGs. I picked up a lot of the details from a seminar that Matthew Sprange (owner and founder of Mongoose Publishing) ran at GenCon UK in 2007 (I was at that GenCon partly because Black Industries were doing demos of Dark Heresy at the event that year, and I was running a couple of sessions of it, so I got in for free). A lot of the information from that seminar (which I gather was something he'd run frequently) was re-presented in the PDF "I am Mongoose and you can too", which spells out the business considerations. It's about 5 years old, so a lot of the assumptions are out of date, but it brought to mind a lot of factors that aren't immediately apparent (like the fact that about 60% of the retail price of an RPG book goes to the distributor - on average, that $60 rulebook results in $24 going back to the publisher, which then has to be divided amongst everything else - writing, art, editing, layout, printing, shipping, and in some cases, licenses as well).

Now that I'm in the industry - and I'm deeper in now than I was a few years ago with FFG - it's still useful to remember how much work goes into making an RPG.

Just as a quick follow-up to the "copy paste" thing, I want to talk about where I've done it.

If you look at Tome of Fate you'll notice that there's a section in there on Investigations. There's also an Investigations section in Book of Judgement, the Arbite book for DH1.0. I didn't write the Arbite one, but I did write the one in Tome of Fate. The one in Tome of Fate has, essentially, the same rules, but themed more towards Chaos campaigns and the Screaming Vortex. It's also a hell of a lot shorter. It's easy to say that the rules are copy/pasted from Book of Judgement, but they're not. I had to take what was, I think, a 10,000 word section and compact it down significantly without losing the meaning of the section and still include a number of the tables (and tables take up a lot of page space, reducing the words you can write in standard paragraphs). The armoury in that book, the other section I wrote, was much longer but significantly easier to write. You can't just copy/paste. It's not viable, and even when the wording is the same (and you'd want that for rules, because why re-word a rule that already works?) a lot of work still goes into ensuring the integrity of the rules.

Only War started as a DH1 supplement, got delayed repeatedly, then spun off into a full-blown rulebook which pushed it back even further.

As Nathan said, that's not at all what happened with Only War. Furthermore you don't just up and decide to turn a supplement into a whole new product line on a whim, or because of delays.

BYE

I thought the 'delays' were because of the immense quantity of data available, it would not even be possible to make a decent IG DH supplement, and they expanded full Game to be able to jam everything critical to the IG and such into one book.

and I suppose actually making the thing and working the kinks in the char/regiment gen.

Personally it surprised me, but I bought it and played it..that is to say, I had to run a campaign because no one else wanted and it was the only way for me to actually play the game. 'Not too hot on the combat system, but it suits the needs of the game.

This pretty much confirms what those of us who were unhappy with the final release already suspected, ie. a backlash of negative feedback on the beta forced the product in a conservative direction. This move by Tim and Corey, while a canny business decision, created a recycled product that repeated many of the core problems of the 2008 Black Industries release.

Part of me thinks that they threw up their hands and said "They want the same stale old crap? Give it to them."

I've never been particularly attached to the beta rules, I only registered on this forum to let FFG know that I had read a borrowed PDF and was disappointed at the idea they would charge 60 dollars for what amounts to a recycled product. I was a loyal fan that bought Only War, Rogue Trader, and DH books. But now I constantly warn all my other friends away from DH 2nd Ed, and as my group's perma-GM, they tend to trust me.

They could have charged $40 dollars, called it Dark Heresy: Askellon Sector , and I wouldn't have felt so betrayed. I was honestly looking forward to something new or different, (I give props on the new character generation system, whoever came up with that.) but I think the design team was under too much financial pressure and possibly upset with the fan base for so violently rejecting their first beta to attempt anything interesting. The problem might be that we've been seeing incremental improvements from the beginning with this system. Having another round of incremental improvements and calling it a different edition, to the people that never cared much for the initial system, comes off as just a crass attempt to get $60 dollars for something I already bought.

When 3rd Edition comes out, which I hope will be pretty soon, they should let the fanbase vote on it with their money via kickstarter, rather than let a vocal subset sabotage the beta process. In the meantime, I am going to keep playing with my house-ruled-to-death 40k RPG rules and continue to tell anyone who will listen to just wait for the majority of Askellon Sector to be up on Lexicanum if they want to try out the new sector. If FFG did this out of financial pressure, I hope a failed DH2e will pressure them to be bolder next time.

I think it's somewhat naive to think that a company would shift their entire production and product line direction due to a "vocal subset" that "sabotaged the beta process" .

BYE

Part of me thinks that they threw up their hands and said "They want the same stale old crap? Give it to them."

If that is truly the case then given how uncivil & negative some of the beta testers were - when they gave "feedback", I don't blame the developers one bit.

I think it's somewhat naive to think that a company would shift their entire production and product line direction due to a "vocal subset" that "sabotaged the beta process" .

-> http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/29/5043244/ea-cancels-free-to-play-command-and-conquer

Your feedback from the alpha trial is clear: We are not making the game you want to play. That is why, after much difficult deliberation, we have decided to cease production of this version of the game.

EA. I wish I could conjure up some respect for them, I can't.

Oh likewise, but that is mostly due to their preferences regarding micro-transactions.

I think it's somewhat naive to think that a company would shift their entire production and product line direction due to a "vocal subset" that "sabotaged the beta process" .

BYE

Well, if a company puts out a public beta it's because they want feedback, right? In most big companies that I've worked in (not gaming industry related buy I'd exect the principle holds true in most fields). If a call (presumably at a pretty high level) is made to gather feedback from a target group, acting on said feedback is the safe route (if stuff goes wrong you just followed the previously agreed upon course of action).

I think it was more a combination of circumstances where the feedback from the beta group was just one aspect. So FFG presumably didn't act on just this "vocal subset". So while they disappointed a bunch of people, they also gave another group of people exactly what they wanted.

Some may call it a cowardly move, but the opposite could also be said. It is easier to go forward, even though you know everything is derailing and are just crossing fingers for the outcome. Instead they pulled back and started to rethink everything. They wouldn't have made this decision on a whim or a hunch and hey, they tried to go for something new but it just didn't work out.

If they went forward with the original plan, they would probably have alienated both groups of people. Like the final product wouldn't fit together, wouldn't be innovative enough, whatever and also lose it's familiarity with the previous systems, backwards compatibility, ...

I think it's somewhat naive to think that a company would shift their entire production and product line direction due to a "vocal subset" that "sabotaged the beta process" .

BYE

Going by the forums (the only available public information) it seemed like an even split of opinions, which leads people to wonder if one side was just louder/more aggressive or if FFG had some reason to ignore the people who liked the direction of the new beta. In the vacuum of information pointing either way, people are guessing that either the forums weren't representative of all feedback and that majority hated the beta, or that FFG was pressured in some other way to scrap most innovations from the beta.

I wouldn't have felt so betrayed.

When you start feeling betrayed by people you don't know, and don't know you on a personal level over the business direction of a roleplaying game of all things there's something wrong in the attachment department.

Secondarily while much of it was recycled note that happens because if new people buy the product they need the recycled material to get going if it's a core.

I wouldn't have felt so betrayed.

When you start feeling betrayed by people you don't know, and don't know you on a personal level over the business direction of a roleplaying game of all things there's something wrong in the attachment department.

I disagree, but respect your measured approach as well. A gaming company, or any entertainment company is selling an emotional experience. It's only reasonable that people are going to have a connection with that experience. And when that connection is broken, it's like any other bond of trust that is broken.

I am not plotting FFG's destruction from a mountaintop lair. I go about my relatively normal life very rarely thinking of them. But whenever someone mentions Dark Heresy, I am merciless in my invective against the business decisions that went into Dark Heresy 2e.